Mercury in Vaccines Causing Autism

[Ken Carman]

I'm going to post this here as well. Mods, I know I'm posting someone else's post but since I invited them here to debate this topic, I know they'd approve. This appears over at the other thread on this topic, "Mercury Poisoned Politics," which incudes a portion of my Inspection column on the topic. I put the "bold" within one quote.

Mercury still in there~ and more.. Unfortunately, thimerosal is still present in some vaccines. 75% of this year's Influenza vaccine still contained a full load of mercury. Yes, the same vaccine that the CDC and NIH recommended all pregnant women recieve. Now, we've seen the "real science" presented that supposededly shows that there is no link between the mercury preservative (thimerosal) and Autism Spectrum Disorders. We know that these studies were paid for and funded by the same drug companies that are responsible for this mess. Even if some of the funding came from the impartial american taxpayer, the CDC and the NIH seem to be so in bed with the Drug companies that virtually anything that they say must at least be suspect. An eloquent study was performed using the CDC's own numbers comparing two large sample populations that received the DTaP vaccine. One population received a vaccine with the thimerosal presevative and one vaccine was thimerosal free. This father and son team started out to disprove the link between mercury in the presevative thimerosal and Autism. However, after doing REAL SCIENCE, trying to disprove a hypothesis, they saw that there clearly was a difference in these two sample populations. The group that received the thimerosal containing vaccine had a statistically significant increase risk of developing autism as well as other neurological disorders. We are not against vaccines. On the contrary~ We believe that they have saved us from a vast array of childhood diseases that have scourged the human race for millenna. But, they need to be given in a responsible manner. The drug companies need to face up to the mistakes they have made instead of hiding being "junk science". And the CDC and the NIH have to admit that they were wrong in 1999 by not calling for a mandatory recall of all mercury containing vaccines. The CDC and the NIH need to abide by the Hippocratic oath to first do no harm. We saw our child regress after multiple injections of what we now know was a neurotoxin. That is enough for us, and the thousands of other parents like us, to question the use of thimerosal in vaccinations and their implication in neurodevelopemental disorders. Colleen and Chris Jenny ( Ryan's parents )

"We need to know for sure as a nation if this all dates back to someone with a needle who thought they were doing good." ~ Ken Carmen In the end this is the question..and it is one of the major reasons for all of the smoke and mirrors. No one wants to admit this is possible.. CJ

[Ken Carman]

I'm also going to post a link to The Autism Research Institute. :rolleyes: Anyone clicking on that link that claims it has to be some conspiracy site needs to check their attic for aliens who look like squirrels.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Ken Carman I'm also going to post a link to The Autism Research Institute. :rolleyes: Anyone clicking on that link that claims it has to be some conspiracy site needs to check their attic for aliens who look like squirrels.

Interesting. You post a link with the comment that anyone not impressed is crazy. Leading with an insult is a lousy way to state your case, unless of course you do not have a case.

And I note that the name appearing most in ARI's "Partial list of studies linking thimerosal to Autism" is Geier.

Dr. Geier has called the use of thimerosal in vaccines the world's "greatest catastrophe that's ever happened, regardless of cause." Dr. Geier has been examining issues of vaccine safety since at least 1971, when he was a lab assistant at the National Institutes of Health, or N.I.H. His résumé lists scores of publications, many of which suggest that vaccines cause injury or disease. He has also testified in more than 90 vaccine cases, he said, although a judge in a vaccine case in 2003 ruled that Dr. Geier was "a professional witness in areas for which he has no training, expertise and experience." In other cases, judges have called Dr. Geier's testimony "intellectually dishonest," "not reliable" and "wholly unqualified." Scientists say that the Geiers' studies are tainted by faulty methodology. "The problem with the Geiers' research is that they start with the answers and work backwards," said Dr. Steven Black, director of the Kaiser Permanente Vaccine Study Center in Oakland, Calif. "They are doing voodoo science."

On Autism's Cause, It's Parents vs. Research

Quote junk science and you get junk conclusions.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: RickSp Interesting. You post a link with the comment that anyone not impressed is crazy. Leading with an insult is a lousy way to state your case, unless of course you do not have a case. And I note that the name appearing most in ARI's "Partial list of studies linking thimerosal to Autism" is Geier. On Autism's Cause, It's Parents vs. Research Quote junk science and you get junk conclusions.

Point somewhat well taken. There have been accusations of "junk science" back and forth, as you will note from previous posts on both threads.

As an aside, I find the phrase "junk science" has become meaningless, no matter who uses it. It's like "crackpot" or "conspiracy nut." (I did post someone else's comment using that phrase because I felt other things they said needed to be added to the conversation, especially since they have first hand knowledge of both autism and how much therapies used to cleanse the body of mercury can help. To them this is a very personal issue.) The phrase "junk science" is becoming just another way O'Reilly-ian way to insult someone and tell them to shut up, shut up, SHUT UP! It's like using "Liberal" over and over again.
Yawn.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: RickSp Interesting. You post a link with the comment that anyone not impressed is crazy. Leading with an insult is a lousy way to state your case, unless of course you do not have a case. And I note that the name appearing most in ARI's "Partial list of studies linking thimerosal to Autism" is Geier. On Autism's Cause, It's Parents vs. Research Quote junk science and you get junk conclusions.

Rick. Do not stick words into my computer. Did you see "anyone impressed is crazy?" Need glasses? Reading lessons?

"Anyone clicking on that link that claims it has to be some conspiracy site."

That is what I said and I stand by it. There are a lot of things on that page. Do I support absolutely every statement or paper posted on that site? Nope. Didn't say that, and I wouldn't. Hell, I'm still trying to find the one thing you accessed to start tossing around the "junk science" label. Are you going to say that everything on that site is "junk?"

BTW, when it came to what you are referring to as junk science, you're the only one who referred to that specific person and "research." But I would no more make the insinuation, because of what you quote or refer to, that all your conclusions have to be "junk," than you should... IF that's what you were attempting to do.

Insult? No, challenge. And I welcome your response, no matter how much we disagree on this subject.

[Ken Carman]

Interesting! Just accessed one paper with Geier's name on it, along with almost 30 other researchers. So I guess all the others have to be liars, thieves, punks, over-sexed monks, perverts, hornswagglers, cattlerustlers, rapists, papists, moonshiners and methodists :eek:

Wait... wasn't that from Blazing Saddles?


Never mind!

No personal insult intended... just humor.

[carriew]

this makes me ill.

my son recieved a hep b vaccine at birth my daughter didnt get hers untill she was 1 mnth old.

my son is 3 and he is just now learning to speak he has been in early intervention since 2 and 1/2 for a speech delay. there is no other child in my entire family or my husbands that has ever had any kind of problems.

it really makes me think if the vaccines did this to my son.

people's heads should roll for this!

[RickSp]

Quote by: Ken Carman Interesting! Just accessed one paper with Geier's name on it, along with almost 30 other researchers.

Geier

[carriew]

Quote by: Lou Minotti http://www.healingedge.net/store/autism_to_court.html This is actually not true.

how many kids have you enrolled in school? I know my son is in early intervention and he has to have all his shots most of the shots are given before age 3. not after as I just read somewhere in this thread.
my daughter is in kindergarden and again wasnt allowed to enroll in a PRIVATE school without her shots the public school is the exact same way.

one of my best freinds tried to not get her child done and ran into so many issues with daycares she had to give in.

as a mother I was not given a choioce. I had to sign a paper but if I want my kids in school or daycare or early intervention for his speech therapy they MUST have thier shots UP TO DATE!

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: RickSp Geier

Not quite sure what you're trying to state here, Rick, except it brought me to a search engine response for the name. Wonder if you Google any of those other names if you'd get a similar response?

[RickSp]

Quote by: Ken Carman Not quite sure what you're trying to state here, Rick, except it brought me to a search engine response for the name. Wonder if you Google any of those other names if you'd get a similar response?

Pay attention Ken. The links were limited to the ARI site. You claimed that Geier was referenced once on the ARI site. I pulled up the nine or ten links or references to Geier on the site.

Geier is at best a well meaning hack. Some consider him an outright charlatan. His significant presence on the ARI site makes it far less credible to me.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: carriew how many kids have you enrolled in school? I know my son is in early intervention and he has to have all his shots most of the shots are given before age 3. not after as I just read somewhere in this thread. my daughter is in kindergarden and again wasnt allowed to enroll in a PRIVATE school without her shots the public school is the exact same way. one of my best freinds tried to not get her child done and ran into so many issues with daycares she had to give in. as a mother I was not given a choioce. I had to sign a paper but if I want my kids in school or daycare or early intervention for his speech therapy they MUST have thier shots UP TO DATE!

I love what the link sent me too. For instance...

"There's simply no reliable scientific evidence" that thimerosal causes autism, said Loren Cooper, assistant general counsel for GlaxoSmithKline, the global pharmaceutical giant. Dr. Stephen Cochi, head of the national immunization program at the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, argues that only "junk scientists and charlatans" support the thimerosal-autism link.

So I should just accept as untainted the counsel for Glaxo?

What was it I said in the column about "conflict of interest?" Now, are most of those doctors who signed the study Rick referred to also invested in therapies that take mercury out of the system? That would also be possible conflict of interest, but I'd like to see proof.

But then we get to Dr. Stephen Cochi who has decided to call everyone, including parent who supports the mercury autism link idea, a charlatan or junk scientist. So it's only the anti-Thimerosal crowd that call people names and toss out insults? If you read the NYT article Rick offered, you might think the medical community and those who debate the other side to this issue are just poor helpless souls out to do good being attacked by vicious, nasty parents.

Hmmm... let's see now. What motivation could parents have for doing this? Let's see, causing their children to suffer horrible deaths? :eek: Hmm... don't think so. Um, :rolleyes: the health and welfare of their children? Sounds logical. If someone believes they're misguided, I may disagree, but I'll buy the debating point as one that can be fairly made.

Now we'll turn to the medical community that there can be little doubt is regulated and observed through the policies pushed, or not, by politicians, who get large donations from drug companies, and the drug companies themselves who walk in with bucket loads of samples and supplies. Plus, we must consider lawsuits if court cases succeed into the equation that would hurt drug companies who hand over cash to politicians and buy lots of advertising. Am I going to say that every one of these, or even most, are compromised? No. But certainly questions about motivation rest more heavily with the medical community, the politicians and the drug companies, than parents.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: RickSp Pay attention Ken. The links were limited to the ARI site. You claimed that Geier was referenced once on the ARI site. I pulled up the nine or ten links or references to Geier on the site. Geier is at best a well meaning hack. Some consider him an outright charlatan. His significant presence on the ARI site makes it far less credible to me.

Note, once I saw that, I did ask for others. Thanks.

"Some consider" him so does not "so" make, but it is interesting. Be nice to investigate who "some" are and what connections they may have too. It certainly isn't good for ARI, but one amongst 30 or more doesn't exactly make me stand up and say, "I am healed of my poor skeptical ways and have become a true believer."

Of course neither does an article that quotes a Glaxo lawyer either, I just think whomever wrote that might have found a better source for a quote to serve that side of the debate. But I do believe the actual debate between people is better served by all the "he's a hack" and labeling everyone concerned a charlatan (see previous post.).

If someone is a shill or a hack, that doesn't make their viewpoint wrong. For that we need a far, far wider view than either some drug company lawyer or researcher whose methodology has been questioned.

[Kathleen E.]

OK, I do have the education to weigh in on this one, as well as personal experience. My PhD is in Biology and I have made a pretty thorough study of the literature on autism and mercury. The biological mechanisms are extremely plausible and the Hornig study, which was reported to Congress last year, showed that mice of certain genetic strains given proportionately exactly the amount of mercury we have been unnecessarily injecting into our children developed autism-like neurological symptoms. The other genetic strains did not. The strains that were susceptible to such poisoning were the ones that are also susceptible to autoimmune diseases like lupus, scleroderma, rheumatoid arthritis. Latest studies of autopsies of autistic individuals have showed inflammation in the brain that is like an autoimmune condition.

I lived in Michigan for three years in the 90s near a coal-fueled power plant that was emitting mercury, and developed systemic lupus with positive anti-nuclear antibodies with an antinucleolar pattern. Guess what, this is exactly what happens to the strain of mice that has a problem with mercury exposure. My daughter got the same reaction when she was in vet school in Wisconsin. My grandson (my son's son, whose mother is from Michigan) received a hepatitis shot at age 1 day and most of his other vaccines on time and also was diagnosed with sensory integration dysfunction, receptive and expressive speech delay, developmental delay, etc. etc. like Ryan did.

Doctors like Stephanie Cave, MD who work with hundreds of autistic children have found that it is the families with autoimmune diseases that cannot properly excrete and handle mercury. These are the children whose brains have been poisoned.

I worked doing statistical epidemiological research at Cornell University for 6.5 years, and I can tell you that the kinds of studies that have been done in Denmark, etc. are not adequate to rule out the severe damage to certain families that has been occurring. It's almost a form of medical genocide, sorry for the strong language, I know it is not an intentional thing. In fact, that is, I believe, why the medical establishment is reacting so strongly, because they cannot face the possibility that they might have been responsible for what we are seeing, which is an epidemic of damaged children. Their immune systems are damaged also, which makes it impossible for them to respond properly to the live-virus vaccines which do not contain mercury, like the MMR.

Of course, with that responsibility comes also liability. The cost of educating and treating this epidemic of children is astronomical. The parents and grandparents are currently going broke, fast. There is going to be a new generation of American citizens who are barely able to be productive members of society if they are not given the extra help they need. Removing liability from the pharmaceutical companies is not helpful.

This is not a conspiracy theory. This is, however, not something to ridicule or to stay in denial about. It is the medical establishment that is in a stage of grief that is clouding their minds on this issue. The stage is called denial.

Peace,,
(Rev.) Kathleen Eickwort, PhD

[Apeman81]

http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimfaq.htm#q3

"Under the FDA Modernization Act (FDAMA) of 1997, the FDA carried out a comprehensive review of the use of thimerosal in childhood vaccines. Conducted in 1999, this review found no evidence of harm from the use of thimerosal as a vaccine preservative, other than local hypersensitivity reactions.

Obviously, not all are so convinced of the dire consequences

[RickSp]

This thread is traveling over old territory and I doubt if repeating argument and references already proposed is worth the repetition. It is clear that the newcomers to the thread either have not read the thread or are too sure in the virtue of their views to deign to respond to the criticisms of their claims.

I suppose if you want to dismiss the 14 seperate studies which have found no relationship between thimerosal and autism, that is up to you. A willingness to throw around a phrase like "medical genocide" seems neither responsible nor even rational to me. I also note that in the most basic terms, autism has continued to rise in Denmark even years after thimerosal has been removed from all Danish vaccines. One need not play games with methodology, or degrees of statistical significance, to see that other factors may be at play.

Previous posts and links:
Mercury in Vaccines Causing Autism
Mercury in Vaccines Causing Autism
Mercury in Vaccines Causing Autism
Mercury in Vaccines Causing Autism

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Apeman81 http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimfaq.htm#q3 "Under the FDA Modernization Act (FDAMA) of 1997, the FDA carried out a comprehensive review of the use of thimerosal in childhood vaccines. Conducted in 1999, this review found no evidence of harm from the use of thimerosal as a vaccine preservative, other than local hypersensitivity reactions. Obviously, not all are so convinced of the dire consequences

I think I remember that study when I did my research on this topic, before I wrote my column on it. (See Mercury Poisoned Politics thread) One of the several problems was that they treated ethyl-mercury and methyl mercury as exactly the same, they are not. Now according to some posters this would be a plus, since they seem to believe that the former is less toxic. I have seen just the opposite... that the body absorbs it better and it makes becomes easier to breach the brain barrier. How many and which studies they looked at is also in question, and whether they looked at all levels of damage. If when they averaged exposure they missed excedingly high levels on they days they were innoculated... another question.

This is a war of studies, that's for sure, and accusations of bad or compromised research are not limited to one side or the other. I suppose that was the most annoying part of the NYT article link provided in a past post. Whenever anyone writes anything that is supposed to be news, or even a feature but not opinion, that seems to state there are only questions about research on one side of any controversial issue, I start to question the writer's motivation and ethics. As both a Communications and English major while in college I can tell you it's not traditional journalism or what one does when writing a supposedly non-partisan study of any issue. Such things have been compromised more and more over the past years by the merging of political correctness, in bed with "embedded" reporters, media consolidation, entertainment and journalism. Not a good trend, overall.


Not "all" are ever convinced by anything, that's my rule, and even a majority doesn't necessarily mean that the minority is wrong.

[Jonathan]

Kathleen,

Having carefully read Dr. Hornig’s study, I have some earnest complaints about it.

The mice in that study did a number of interesting thins like chewing through a cage mates skull. To my knowledge no autistic child has ever chewed through a play mates skull.

I notice her mention of inflammation, but what about minicolumns, those are also found in the brains of autistic persons. I saw no mention of these in Dr. Hornig’s article.

My concern is that Dr. Hornig convincingly demonstrated that some mice are more susceptible to effects from mercury via genetic means, but that she has taught us nothing about autistic persons.

[Kathleen E.]

I'm going out of town to a seminar this morning so I do not have the time to respond to this thoroughly. However, the mouse behavior you mentioned is entirely in line with what we do see in autistic children--namely, the inability to experience empathy (realize, for instance, that when another child in preschool is bitten it hurts). I don't have time to look up the autopsy study that also came out last year and comment on the columnar cells, but I will say that the mercury damage to the enzyme system in the body, which causes the body to have difficulty, for instance, breaking down the proteins and peptides in wheat, causes damage to the Purkinje cells in the cerebellum. Also found in autistic autopsies.

This situation is too complex to discuss in an e-mail. But the correlations keep coming up. I am dismissing the epidemiological studies because if only certain families are going to be affected because they are the ones subject to autoimmune disease because of mercury exposure (BOTH by vaccines AND by environmental pollution), you may very well not be able to see the effect in a population-wise epidemiological study. I notice that you have not referred to the recent drop in autism rates in California. Or the fact that the blood-brain barrier is not fully developed, nor are the detoxification systems of the body, in one-day old babies when that "tuna-fish sandwich" is provided in the form of a hepatitis injection.

"Medical genocide" is a way of saying, this situation is devastating whole families, not just random individuals who happen to be sensitive to mercury. The sensitivity is genetic, the injections are not and the autism is not. My great-grandmother had 12 children and her daughter had seven,and these children did not develop autoimmune disease or autism...it took the addition of an environmental trigger(s) to cause my cousins to have a very high rate of autoimmune disease, and the generation that was those children's grandchildren is the one that has the extremely high rates of speech delay, autistic traits, etc.

Now think a minute--if this were your family, and your family was the one that was being devastated physically and mentally, would genocide be too strong a word? Certain strains of mice, and certain human families are demonstrably more sensitive to mercury poisoning. They are not that uncommon--let's say for the purpose of debate, perhaps 10% of the population. If we insist on poisoning these "weaker" members of the population because of the risk of disease to the others--and I would add, I grew up prior to the measles shot and we all got measles, mumps, rubella and chickenpox, and the "horror of a full-blown case of measles" would have been ridiculed by that generation--isn't that a form of "ethnic cleansing"? Not intentional, but in effect?

Well I've got to go, sorry.

Peace,
(Rev.) Kathleen Eickwort, PhD, Cornell University

[RickSp]

Quote by: Kathleen E. "Medical genocide" is a way of saying, this situation is devastating whole families, not just random individuals who happen to be sensitive to mercury. Now think a minute--if this were your family, and your family was the one that was being devastated physically and mentally, would genocide be too strong a word? Peace, (Rev.) Kathleen Eickwort, PhD, Cornell University

Do words have any meaning to you? Genocide is defined as "the systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group." Explain to me how a family tragedy is the systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group. Are you fond of shouting "fire" in a crowded theater? Your use of language is completely and dangerously irresponsible and yet you expect us to listen to your claims that 14 or so scientific studies are all wrong and only you are right?

As a father of two I have seen multiple families in my kid's school "opt-out" of vaccinations for their kids based on "religious" grounds. I know the attorney who cranks out the letters letting the parents "opt-out". In all cases, the parents justified their actions by wild and unfounded claims about autism and thimerosal, just like the ones you spread. I have read the accounts and I see no reason to doubt the myriad studies that say there is no connection between thimerosal and autism.

I do know for certain that these parents are reducing the "herd immunity" of the kids in the schools. They are not just putting their kids at risk - they are also putting mine in danger.

But you go on ranting about "genocide". Words having meanings and consequences, even if you choose to ignore both.