What if this was the situation ...War on Terror

[lsbskins1]

I pulled my own post from another thread because I wanted to get reactions to this specifically....

Why does it seem so impossible to some people that you can love your country and not like some things your government does, that you can remember that some fundementalist dirtbags hate us and seek to kill Americans, and still not believe that it is necessary to agree with everything your government says in order to be patriotic and support the ending of the circumstances that lead to the attack? Lets say a really left wing nut job was in offfice now and had been on 9/11. Lets say his only response to the situation had been to attack Israel because he believed the root of the problem was not the terrorists reaction to their problems, but Israels pressence in the middle east. Lets say he committed ground troops to fight the Israeli army? Would it mean that you hated the troops and your country if you protested that course of action? If you challenged people to explain why they supported that course of action then would it be unreasonable to expect a reply other than, "Because I love my country, support the troops and appriciate the fact that I live in the greatest country in the world.Now shut up and crawl back in your hole you idiot!"

[Dieval]

Quote by: lsbskins1 I pulled my own post from another thread because I wanted to get reactions to this specifically.... Why does it seem so impossible to some people that you can love your country and not like some things your government does, that you can remember that some fundementalist dirtbags hate us and seek to kill Americans, and still not believe that it is necessary to agree with everything your government says in order to be patriotic and support the ending of the circumstances that lead to the attack?

I believe that anyone in this country can disagree with the current government. No problem there. The problem I have is when they point to conspiracy theories, make outrageous claims of lies and deception, and feel its in their best interesting to subvert our goals because they know "the truth".

As for the "left wing nut job" attacking Israel....well, lets just hope that never happens.

[Thunder Wave]

The truth is so hard to investigate since it's controlled by the viewer/listener/reader. I mean anyone can investigate something, twist it, and turn it into a conspiracy theory. It can even be changed and twisted to be as a benefit to society. You have to admit, that is the point all politicians try to do with whatever they do. They make it into a plausible likeable proposal to turn into an action. You can't trust all you read and you can't take the government's word for it either.

Our only choices are to become educated and speak out for our rights. When things get out of hand, (which they haven't yet), than one can fully and completely retaliate according to their belief if it is justified with pure truth, scientific proof and true unhampered events.

[Dieval]

Quote by: Thunder Wave The truth is so hard to investigate since it's controlled by the viewer/listener/reader. I mean anyone can investigate something, twist it, and turn it into a conspiracy theory. It can even be changed and twisted to be as a benefit to society. You have to admit, that is the point all politicians try to do with whatever they do. They make it into a plausible likeable proposal to turn into an action. You can't trust all you read and you can't take the government's word for it either. Our only choices are to become educated and speak out for our rights. When things get out of hand, (which they haven't yet), than one can fully and completely retaliate according to their belief if it is justified with pure truth, scientific proof and true unhampered events.

According to your post, you can't trust what anyone says...so how do you go about educating yourself if everything is biased?

[lsbskins1]

My question comes down to this, why do so many people who support the current course of action of the administation assume that those who oppose it do so because they "hate" the US and "hate" the men in the military. I tried to present a scenario in which they would be staying true to the "consevative" world view and oppose the use of the miltary in that particular way and oppose American policy in that particular instance. Would they then become the America haters we on the left have been accused of being? I would like to hear from some of the Conservatives on this issue in particular. I mean, I understand the relevace of the conspiracy issue on a certain level, but first I would like to hear thoughts on the issue I was trying to raise.

[Dieval]

To me, I don't think that everyone on the left hates America..(I do think there are some that have a funny way of showing that sometimes, though)...and for the most part they just want what they think is best...

[Thunder Wave]

Quote by: Dieval According to your post, you can't trust what anyone says...so how do you go about educating yourself if everything is biased?

I was speaking specifically to Political sides and points of view. It is meant to be a state of thinking so one doesn't become a fool. It's like saying to be careful of what people post and say. Facts never lie, so that is where one can educate themselves.

That's what I meant anyways.

[lsbskins1]

Is this topic just boring or are all the conservatives on vacation?

[Technosoul]

Perhaps the conservatives which to avoid topics where honest logic is employed. I think that the O.P. makes sense and I agree.

Back in the hippy days the conservatives had this bumper sticker - "Love it our leave it". So I made my own bumper sticker "love it, leave it, or change it".

Why not expand the options and choices?

In most cases it is the conservatives that work together as a conspiracy, and in most cases it is the left-wingers or honest investigative reporters who catch them at it and then expose it or report about it.

The reason the republicans call truthful reporting a conspiracy theory is so that it will not sound factual. They want people to think that is just another one of those Art Bell UFO stories about alien abductions. Yipes, the UFOs are abducting the oil fields in Iraq - wooooo! In fact they are involved in a P.R. conspiracy to discredit amost all negitive reporting about the Repulican objectives. They are in fact involved in a well-thought out and intended conspiracy to make people think that liberals are anti-Americans because they do not agree with President Bush. Did Al Gore claim that he lost the electioon because some anti-Americans got the Supreme Court to void our fair and honest ballet counting mandates. Did Bill Clinton claim that Anti-Americans wanted to investigate his sex life so that he could not give full attention to what must be done to run this country? No he did not. Did Kennedy call those who objected to his not authorizing an all-out war on cuba anti-Americans. No he did not. The conspiracy to title all left wing objections as just an anit-American conspiracy theories is what Republicans do when they need to grab for straws - to keep their ship from sinking into the mud.

Left wingers are not anti-establishment, they are pro the establishment of good government.

Technosoul.

[Thunder Wave]

Quote by: lsbskins1 Is this topic just boring or are all the conservatives on vacation?

I agree with all that's been said, so I can't really argue.

[rmnunez]

Suspected Al Qaedar busted in Mexico:

Mexican law-enforcement announced the arrest in the town of Todos los Santos in Baja California Sur yesterday of Amer Haykel, a Lebanese-born British subject identified by the US government as a terrorism suspect with Al Qaeda ties possibly involved in the 911 attacks.

This is the first time the Mexican government acknowledges finding any terrorist suspects after a number of false leads previously reported. Mr. Haykel’s arrest was the product of a cordinated effort by the Mexican PGR (Procuraduria General de la Republica), CISEN (Centro de Investigaciones en Seguridad Nacional) and AFI (Agencia Federal de Investigación). US law-enforcement agencies were apparently engaged but the degree to which has not been acknowledged.

[rmnunez]

Terrorist Suspect Nonesuch:
Amer Haykel, the Lebanese-born British subject arrested by Mexican authorities in Baja California Sur as a terrorist suspect was transferred to the INM (federal immigration authority) in Mexico City. The INM was awaiting an extradition request from the US but reports Mr. Haykel will now be released. According to the INM, Mr. Haykel is just a British tourist who was mistakenly identified by the US as an Al Qaeda suspect 2 years ago. Subsequently the US authorities determined Mr. Haykel was no longer a suspect but they failed to notify their Mexican counterparts who continued to operate under the assumption the man was a dangerous terrorist. Upon enquiring over whether Mr. Haykel’s extradition would be sought, the Mexican government was advised as to the suspect’s change in status.

[oranged]

Quote by: lsbskins1 I pulled my own post from another thread because I wanted to get reactions to this specifically.... Why does it seem so impossible to some people that you can love your country and not like some things your government does, that you can remember that some fundementalist dirtbags hate us and seek to kill Americans, and still not believe that it is necessary to agree with everything your government says in order to be patriotic and support the ending of the circumstances that lead to the attack? Lets say a really left wing nut job was in offfice now and had been on 9/11. Lets say his only response to the situation had been to attack Israel because he believed the root of the problem was not the terrorists reaction to their problems, but Israels pressence in the middle east. Lets say he committed ground troops to fight the Israeli army? Would it mean that you hated the troops and your country if you protested that course of action? If you challenged people to explain why they supported that course of action then would it be unreasonable to expect a reply other than, "Because I love my country, support the troops and appriciate the fact that I live in the greatest country in the world.Now shut up and crawl back in your hole you idiot!"

This is not what a commy would do! I should know. If a "left wing nut job" somehow got in to power in America, 9-11 would not have happened, because, the US government would not have planned it. The security planes would not have been told to stand down, and the planes might never have even ben hijacked.

[walton]

If a democrat were president and a high ranking executive branch official gave secret information to an ally of Iran, that democrat president would be in big trouble. He would have to find out who broke the law and their oath and gave secrets to unauthorized people. A Democrat president would also be in big trouble, if an executive branch official exposed a CIA officer or blabbed that Naeem Noor Khan was now working for our side.

These extremely damaging things have been done by Bush's administration. But Republicans tell themselves that there is no problem. When a corrupt government gets into trouble it becomes more repressive and hostile. Republicans never convened any hearings on Bush's people giving aid and comfort to the enemy through leaks of secrets.

As elsewhere noted, Bush 41 said that there is no more insidious treason than exposing our intelligence gatherers. But Bush 43's people make believe it never happened, even though the damage reports, so the judges who have seen them say, show that very serious damage to national security was done. The Republicans who care about national security aren't in charge anymore. Crazy and stupid people have taken over. Don't expect them to do any better or to understand that country is more important than party.

[Osborn F Enready]

Both sides, left wing nut-jubs and right wing extremists, are equally guilty. Unfortunately a large portion of America falls into those two categories out of the dozen or so that exist, at least, over the last 8 to 10 years.

[Zeebadee]

This kind of question makes it very much evident why our own morality should dictate our actions, not our emotions. There's an old saying in sports, "What got you here is going to keep you here". You don't go against your fundamental beliefs to address a short-term problem. The Constitution has stood us very well for more than 200 years, this is not the time to react to new threats by compromising our most basic beliefs. Stay the course, keep our fundamental beliefs of Right and Wrong, maintain the freedoms so many have died for to acquire and protect. If you sacrifice the very ideals that you base your society on in order to bring yourself to fight on the same level as your opponent, you've already lost that fight.

[Logjam]

Quote by: Technosoul Perhaps the conservatives which to avoid topics where honest logic is employed. I think that the O.P. makes sense and I agree. Back in the hippy days the conservatives had this bumper sticker - "Love it our leave it". So I made my own bumper sticker "love it, leave it, or change it".

You Liberals just don't get it.

You can criticize the US while it is at war so long as the criticism isn't taken by the enemy as a showing of weakness.

You see the enemy knows full well it was the Left in the US that caused us to lose the VN war. (We really didn't lose the war; but that's another debate.) At least most of the world believes we lost it.

So when you limp wristed lefties chant against the War in Iraq the enemy thinks that we are weakening, and that the tide is turning toward them. So they fight harder, and kill more Americans.

So, you see, hammering against the war does put American GI's at risk, and while you hate to admit it, you are giving aid and comfort to the enemy....which some (and the Constitution) say is treason.

You can criticize the US's actions in this war all you want AFTER THE WAR IS OVER. Then it won't hurt our guys and won't encourage the enemy to fight on.

If you'd just come out full force in support of the US the war would end even sooner, because the enemy might figure that they're deaths are in vain and that we are a united front agains them as we were in WWII. After all we must win this war.

But now, the left is ranting against our actions in the War. The enemy figures that you are on their side. That's what the Right thinks anyway. Even though I doubt that many of you do.

Join the Americas who want to slaughter the enemy killers, beat them to their knees. Terror must be stopped. If it isn't we're going to be hit again and again, and eventually we'll be hit with nukes. The only way to speed our being hit is to lose this war.

[Osborn F Enready]

LogJam said:
You can criticize the US while it is at war so long as the criticism isn't taken by the enemy as a showing of weakness.

I say:

ROFLMAO......

Are you a neo-con practicing your "out" for WHEN we lose the war??

In case you haven't figured it out yet, there are no front lines, yet this moron in charge thinks there are. The reason we went to war was for WMD, and there wasn't any. The war against terror is just an excuse to oust Saddam and line the Good oil boys pockets a bit.

Life in Iraq now seems to be as bad or worse than when Saddam was there with OR without the no-fly zone.

The scare tactics, and "you're losing the war for us" mentality is getting old, almost as old as your "paint everyone who talks bad about the U.S. as a traitor" mentality. Bush is the traitor, and Cheney, and Rumsfeld, and Condi, and all the others who signed on the PNAC.

[Milton Bradley]

To Logjam I would say this.


If my government wants us to stop criticizing their policies, all they have to do is obey the law. After all, these are the people who expect the rest of us to obey the law, or suffer the consequences. The irony here is, I don't see them suffering any consequences for their wrongdoings. Perhaps just the critcizm alone is too mush for them to bear.


Lets have a group hug.

[Tesserakt]

Quote by: Logjam You Liberals just don't get it.

Oh I think the London bombings prove who doesn't get it.

You can criticize the US while it is at war so long as the criticism isn't taken by the enemy as a showing of weakness.

An Administration botches a war from beginning to present. If anything is a sign of weakness...

You see the enemy knows full well it was the Left in the US that caused us to lose the VN war. (We really didn't lose the war; but that's another debate.) At least most of the world believes we lost it.

If republicans really knew what the enemy knows, we wouldn't have set foot in Iraq. If republicans really believe the left lost us the VN war, isn't it a sign of weakness to repeat obvious mistakes?

So when you limp wristed lefties chant against the War in Iraq the enemy thinks that we are weakening, and that the tide is turning toward them. So they fight harder, and kill more Americans.

So when you muscular right wingers climb into your "I have a small cock" trucks that suck the oil from Iraq and blood from our soldiers go home at night to watch the war on TV instead of fighting in it, which causes our recruiting numbers to plummet---Is that not a raging beacon of weakness?

So, you see, hammering against the war does put American GI's at risk, and while you hate to admit it, you are giving aid and comfort to the enemy....which some (and the Constitution) say is treason.

Actually the safety of innocent people comes before that of the armed forces. The actions of our armed forces in Iraq are making us more unsafe here at home.

You can criticize the US's actions in this war all you want AFTER THE WAR IS OVER. Then it won't hurt our guys and won't encourage the enemy to fight on.

You can say anything you want, but the only way you'd ever have the right to enforce that rhetoric is over my dead body.

If you'd just come out full force in support of the US the war would end even sooner, because the enemy might figure that they're deaths are in vain and that we are a united front agains them as we were in WWII. After all we must win this war. Join the Americas who want to slaughter the enemy killers, beat them to their knees. Terror must be stopped. If it isn't we're going to be hit again and again, and eventually we'll be hit with nukes. The only way to speed our being hit is to lose this war.

If all the terrorists that exist in the world today were concentrated in Iraq, you'd be right.