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Jackney Sneeb · Feb 19, 2004, 11:12 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Bayou,)
Well jackney sneeb, fu(k off . . .<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
If you want someone to read your screed, I sugest you insult him at the end -- not the beginning.

--Jackney Sneeb

Mathieu · Feb 19, 2004, 11:18 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Jackney Sneeb,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,)
As far as I know, We spent less per capita on healthcare than US citizen ...<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Why is spending less money on health care good, while spending less money on education is bad?
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,)
So who is doing a mass theft?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
The state.

--Jackney Sneeb<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I never said spending less on education was good, but if we pay less for the same , or a better, service, then I don't see where is the disadvantage?

Do I feel jealousy in your rant Jackney Sneeb??

It is not some libertarian bullshit so it is not good? Common , get on earth !

Bayou · Feb 19, 2004, 11:52 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Jackney Sneeb,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Bayou,)
Well jackney sneeb, fu(k off . . .<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
If you want somoene to read your screed, I sugest you insult him at the end -- not the beginning.

--Jackney Sneeb<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

You see all I wanted you to read was what you quoted.
People who are offended by your stance will genrally be in agreeance with what I was saying to you and read further to see what my take on this subject is.
Oh I did insult you at the end see:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (jackney sneeb)
The total amount of money canada pays on healthcare is 9% of its GDP to support EVERYONE in Canada, unlike the sates who pay 14% of their GDP and 60 million people do NOT get coverage<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

See you are paying those high insurance premiums to be effectively ripped off, isnt that insulting?

SVMc · Feb 19, 2004, 02:21 pm

I've been a resident of Canada for some time now, but I think I can still offer a bit of an outside opinion. I think Canadians have a love/hate relationship with the health care system largely due to the proximity of the United States. The United States is the ONLY industrial country that does not have pulic health care. I'd have to look this up again but I remember reading a recent study that said something like 40% of Americans (not even including illegals, migrants and homeless) do not have health coverage. There seems to be adequate evidence that the American system does not provide good health care. The are continually ranked very low on the Human Development Index for this category.

On the other had Canada does have some serious issues with management of our health care. Because of the privatization of our neighbours health care facilities Doctors remuniration is typically higher in the United States, combined with the level high level of education in Canada (54% of Canadians over the age of 30 possess a university degree compared with 37% of Americans), mounting student loans, fluctuations in our health care system, the larger population of the United States we have sever "brain drain" when it comes to the medical profession, Doctors, Nurses and Technicians. This has pushed the Canadian system to have to increase Doctors fees not to match the average in the world but the American system which is often the highest paid category in technical and scientific feilds.

Also we need to ask some serious questions about money management after the release of the Auditor Generals Report ($100 million in transfer fees?)... and the money to Paul Martin steamship lines 137 000 turining into 161 000 000.... that's some REALLY bad math.

While it is true that people are more inclined to abuse a universal system than a private one, this can be addressed without full scale privatization. For instance I would be interested in learning more about user fees for minor procedures. I would probably not support a two teired system because I think that the bureaucracy involved in monitoring level of service, lines cuts etc... would outweigh the benefits of moving people who can afford it to private service. Futher more it has the potential to create a talent split between the public and priavte sector. Also many doctors for a very long time have advocated shifting more funding into preventative measures, this should also be examined... perhaps funded from user fees for the minor injury / ailment users.

Jackney Sneeb · Feb 19, 2004, 02:37 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Jackney Sneeb,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Jackney Sneeb,)

Why is spending less money on health care good, while spending less money on education is bad?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
So who is doing a mass theft?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
The state.

--Jackney Sneeb<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,)
I never said spending less on education was good, but if we pay less for the same , or a better, service, then I don't see where is the disadvantage?

Do I feel jealousy in your rant Jackney Sneeb??

It is not some libertarian bullshit so it is not good? Common , get on earth !<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Absence of answer noted.

--Jackney Sneeb

Jackney Sneeb · Feb 19, 2004, 02:55 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (SVMc,)

While it is true that people are more inclined to abuse a universal system than a private one, this can be addressed without full scale privatization. For instance I would be interested in learning more about user fees for minor procedures.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
User fees!? You want the state to have a blank check against your wages to supposedly provide "quality" medical care (with underpaid doctors), and then you want to actually charge people more money at the time they actually use the system?? See, that's why I don't trust politicians with things like my health service. I know how they operate. First they tell you "We will give you health care for free! No more expensive corporations skimming off the top!" Then, once we have no more choice in the matter, they crank up the taxes, and charge "user fees" on top of it all! When I go to the doctor, I get what I pay for. I don't pay him $500 a month, and when I get sick he demands more. You can have a political monopoly on your health care if you think you're getting a deal. I think you're being scammed . . .

--Jackney Sneeb

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (SVMc,)
I would probably not support a two teired system because I think that the bureaucracy involved in monitoring level of service, lines cuts etc... would outweigh the benefits of moving people who can afford it to private service. Futher more it has the potential to create a talent split between the public and priavte sector. Also many doctors for a very long time have advocated shifting more funding into preventative measures, this should also be examined... perhaps funded from user fees for the minor injury / ailment users.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
More user fees, in a "system" that brags about being free for everyone. You already have a two-tiered system. Politicians and their rich cronies get to go wherever they want for the best medical care money can buy, while reserving the second-class care for their devoted serfs.

--Jackney Sneeb

Mathieu · Feb 19, 2004, 03:08 pm

Absence of arguments noted . I think you gone threw all your cliché Jackey ?

Update : I see you still have some in reserve ! Did you ever got any care in Canada ? Me yes, and I had a real good service . But that , you don't want to hear it !

Mathieu · Feb 19, 2004, 03:11 pm

And you don't want to understand also that we pay LESS, per capita , for the SAME service or a better one .

Mathieu · Feb 19, 2004, 03:16 pm

Health care would Be sooooo much better in an libertarian Utopia !!! Talk me about thing wich work !

Jackney Sneeb · Feb 19, 2004, 03:19 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,)
Absence of arguments noted . I think you gone threw all your cliché Jackey ?

Update : I see you still have some in reserve ! Did you ever got any care in Canada ? Me yes, and I had a real good service . But that , you don't want to hear it !<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
I'm sure you think it's just dandy. As I said, you can have a political monopoly on your health care if you think you're getting a good deal. I am pro choice in the matter. I don't trust crooks like George Bush, Hillary Clinton, Trent Lott, and Ted Kennedy with a monopoly stranglehold on my health care.

--Jackney Sneeb

Mathieu · Feb 19, 2004, 03:25 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Jackney Sneeb,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,)
Absence of arguments noted . I think you gone threw all your cliché Jackey ?

Update : I see you still have some in reserve ! Did you ever got any care in Canada ? Me yes, and I had a real good service . But that , you don't want to hear it !<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
I'm sure you think it's just dandy. As I said, you can have a political monopoly on your health care if you think you're getting a good deal. I am pro choice in the matter. I don't trust crooks like George Bush, Hillary Clinton, Trent Lott, and Ted Kennedy with a monopoly stranglehold on my health care.

--Jackney Sneeb<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Well, if you don't trust you governement, make a revolution ,don't vote for them.If your point of is are so good, I'm sure you will have no problem to do so ! It is good to argue about stuff but do you act sometime Jackey?

Jackney Sneeb · Feb 19, 2004, 04:22 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Jackney Sneeb,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,)
Absence of arguments noted . I think you gone threw all your cliché Jackey ?

Update : I see you still have some in reserve ! Did you ever got any care in Canada ? Me yes, and I had a real good service . But that , you don't want to hear it !<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
I'm sure you think it's just dandy. As I said, you can have a political monopoly on your health care if you think you're getting a good deal. I am pro choice in the matter. I don't trust crooks like George Bush, Hillary Clinton, Trent Lott, and Ted Kennedy with a monopoly stranglehold on my health care.

--Jackney Sneeb<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Well, if you don't trust you governement, make a revolution ,don't vote for them.If your point of is are so good, I'm sure you will have no problem to do so ! It is good to argue about stuff but do you act sometime Jackey?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
I'm glad you asked. I answered that for someone else just the other day:

#12788 Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by (Suburbanite,)
Jackney Sneeb what are you doing to advance your views?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I debate the existence of "government" on a daily basis in various forums such as aol, PalTalk, and here.

I provide a website at nogov4me.net with essays and other tidbits relating to the bogus nature of authority.

I published a book on the folly of the belief in "government" called There's No Government Like No Government ISBN1553695739, reviews for which are available at amazon.com. I welcome comments from readers to update the book and am about to publish the second edition.

I set a good example for my kids by refusing to participate in elections.

Thank you for your interest in my anti-state activities.

--Jackney Sneeb

SVMc · Feb 19, 2004, 05:44 pm

Jackney,

Aside from being able to trace down the book and learn you name and academic history I have been un able to find any academic or refereed reviews of your book. There are certainly good discussions and some anarchist websites highly endores it. I'd be interested in reviewing both positive and critical reviews of your work.

AnonT · Feb 19, 2004, 06:36 pm

SVMc: First of all, no, 40% of the population isn't denied medical care. There's 30-40 million people (including illegals) who don't have insurance, but that doesn't mean that none of them can afford care. Actually, a lot of younger people who could afford insurance or get it through work choose to go without it because they never use it. I had medical insurance for about 3 years before I ever used it, and you can bet I considered cancelling it because I just don't need that much medical care. A lot of wealthier people also go without medical insurance, because they can afford to pay for care out of their own pockets.

Also, as to Americans spending more on health care than Canadians:
"Yes, Canada does spend less than 8 percent of GDP on health care vs. our 14.5 percent. But we spend much more on our elderly population than the Canadians do. This kicks up the costs because 30 percent of health-care dollars for an individual are spent in the final year of life." Larry Elder, The Ten Things You Can't Say In America

Another part of the reason for our higher priced health care (discussed in the aforementioned book) is that we have extremely strict laws regarding who can and can't become a doctor - so strict that there hasn't been a new medical school opened in the US in over half a century because of the overly strict controls Congress placed on them, due mainly to the AMA. Because of this, the number of doctors in the US has risen far more slowly than the general population (in fact, during the 1980s, the number of doctors fell while the general population rose), meaning more demand than supply, meaning higher prices. If we had a freer market in regards to health care, we'd be kicking your asses cost wise.

As far as waiting lines for Canadian hospitals not being as long as I claimed, you may be right that emergency services aren't that bad, but as for non-emergency care:
"People in Canada wait in lines for hip replacements. According to an orthopedic surgeon in Ontario, the wait for an office appointment is four to eight months, and another twelve to twenty two months for the surgery. So, many Canadians head south of the border, and for ten thousand dollars they get a new plastic hip." Larry Elder, The Ten Things You Can't Say in America
And, according to that same source, the Canadian government even had contracts with American hospitals to treat Canadian patients for them, because their hospitals couldn't handle the patient load.

No, you DON'T have a better health care system than we do. You spend less partly because we spend more on our elderly citizens (because they don't have to wait a year or two for a hip replacement), and partly because our government has tried too hard to socialize health care and has placed too many restrictions on health care, not because they don't have enough involvement.

SVMc · Feb 19, 2004, 07:25 pm

I think you attributed many more claims to me than I addressed. First of all I have not looked into the wait period (I will in the next few days). For now I know that wait periods measured at that long of a time are frequently measurments taken in rural northern townships, I have yet to find a study that describes that lenght for an othopedic surgeon in the cities. On a personal note I waited about 30 min. to be referred to one this summer in an emergency room and was given an appointment in the morning... I know this is not uncommon where I live. But I will look for varifaible sources.

Second, I did not say that 40% of americans were denied service I guessed it was 40% did not have coverage. According to the UNDP 2003 report 40 million Americans do not have coverage (I don't know what percent that is someon can look that up). This is also sourced by new internationalist.

Yes America spends more on elder care than Canada, this is in large part due to the larger force of a baby boom in the States compared with Canada, also higher immigration rates keep have effected our demographic rate in respect to age. Per Capita figures would need to be looked up on a demographic basis, if anyone has sources on these feel free to supply them.

As for "kicking or assets" sure the U.S. has better equipment than us already. But more of our population has access to our sufficent equipment and when there was a short fall of MRI in Southern Ontario the government did arrage cross-boarder transfers before they were able to open a new facility last year.

As for the claim that we have droves of citizens streaming accross the boarder to your hospitals I have seen no such proof. Please provide sources.

Finally it really depends on how "better" health care is measured. Sure the U.S. has better technology, more diverse choices of medication etc... but I still think Canadians have better access.... the U.S. insurance system is widely critized as a conglomerate. And if the U.S. system is so good why all the fuss about imported drugs from Canada?

Jackney Sneeb · Feb 19, 2004, 09:33 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (SVMc,)
Jackney,

Aside from being able to trace down the book and learn you name and academic history I have been un able to find any academic or refereed reviews of your book. There are certainly good discussions and some anarchist websites highly endores it. I'd be interested in reviewing both positive and critical reviews of your work.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
See amazon.com under the ISBN, name of the book, and the author -- Jackney Sneeb. There's No Government Like No Government

--Jackney Sneeb

SVMc · Feb 20, 2004, 12:04 am

Thanks for the link FYI the title and ISBN number didn't work when I searched Amazon they did work for Chapters / Indigo.

Evil Baby · Feb 20, 2004, 02:07 am

[quote]
The state running a monopoly gets its money how? By taxing you. What would be the difference between what you have now and a corporate monopoly that taxed you to fund your health care?

Also, you don't think people work for the state to make money? I see no difference between a monopoly run by the state and one run by a company other than the state can rob you to make up for the losses owing to the bad service it provides. What other company can take your wages from you whether you use its service or not?

Why is a state monopoly good, in your view, for things like health care, yet bad for oil production, food service, and the news media for example?
[quote]

Yes, but since the Health Care is owned by only the goverment it can mass order items at a much lower price and then not over charge the consumer for that same product like a monopolist company would do. Once again, the difference is that the Country does not wish to make a profit of the service it provides whereas a private company does wish to make a profit. Which means when you walk into the hospital to get a cast in a non socialized ecnomoy it can cost you upwards of $4000 but in a socialized economy it is free. This insures that not only the rich get helped. Why should we fault the poor, especially the poor who of not fault of their own have lower paying jobs?

[quote]
What companies provide people nothing and still make money?
[/quote
I never said a company doesn't provide a service, but I did say the companies main goal is to make a profit, otherwise there wouldn't be a company, whereas a Country does not need to make a profit off health care and as it is in Canada actual loses money.

Quote:

The consumer" cannot vote anyone out. Your one vote changes nothing. If the majority votes to kick your ass, your ass will be kicked. (Ain't democracy wonderful?) I don't live in a country that forces a monopoly on me for things as important as health care (yet). I already have a choice.

You one voice does add. When you use your voice willingly, you compain against the leading party, you get the word out, you encourage others to vote.

What happens when you live in a small town and there is only one hospital? You can't choose to go somewhere else if your life is in danger, now can you? One voice against the government will do a lot more then one voice against a company would ever do.

Evil Baby · Feb 20, 2004, 02:10 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Jackney Sneeb,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Evil Baby,)
and one consumer can't boycott a company out of existance. Once consumer can't even start a protest. Obviously it takes more then one person, but if a company or Country is only pissing off one person they they are doing a pretty damn good job.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
One consumer can spend his money elsewhere. Can one voter boycott the state out of existence? Can he refuse to pay for service he doesn't use, want, or need?

Which of the following demands that you fork over a chunk of your wages whether you want its product/service or not:

__a) the state

__b) a company

When you refuse to do business with a company, you retain the benefit of keeping your money. When you are dissatisfied with the crap the (state) monopoly offers you, do you keep your money? No. I prefer the system that depends on satisfying my needs or it doesn't get paid. That puts the power in my hands, not politicians'.

--Jackney Sneeb<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I know I've said this before but I will say it again for this post.

What happens when you live in a small town and there is only one option. Canada is the second largest country in the world and has a population of 30 million. Are you awear of how much space there is?

Is it fair that somebody was born with a talent to play a certain sport and therefor they automatically get better treatment? Should a child that is born in to wealth deserver better medical treatment then a child born into poverty?

Evil Baby · Feb 20, 2004, 02:15 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (AnonT,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Evil Baby,)
I will agree that medicare is underfunded. This underfunding creates long waiting lines.... Also I think people need to be charged for stupid things, like going to the emergency room for a bandaid, or when they call 9-11 for no good reason. One lady in Niagara Falls called 9-11 because she swalloed(sp) a fly. She called from Clifton Hill which is insane on Friday nights due to traffic from both the US and Canada and little kids trying to show off their cars. Things like that need to be charged so people take more care with what they call 9-11 for. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

This is exactly the problem with socialized health care. Everything is free, so people use the service whether they need it or not. In the US, when someone has a cold, they spend a couple bucks on some soup and a bottle of NyQuil. In Canada, they head to the hospital. In the US, we get over our colds within a few days, because we spend a little money taking care of it ourselves. In Canada, the person heading to the hospital has to wait in line behind the people who got minor cuts and bruises, the other people with very minor, not life threatening illnesses, the person who called an ambulance when she swallowed a fly, etc., and all that time sitting in that cold waiting room just makes them even sicker. Two days later, when they finally get to see the doctor, the guy from the US is already much better and getting on with his life.

And a week later when they each break their arm, the American gets a cast put on that day. The Canadian spends a couple days waiting in line between the people who got minor cuts and bruises, the people who went to see the doctor when they got a minor cold.... Sure, the American pays for any services he uses, and the Canadian doesn't pay based on his services. But that just ends up rewarding the people who go to the hospital in Canada for minor things. They get free treatment for whatever they want, while slowing things down for the people who are kind enough to shorten the lines by staying home when their injury or illness is minor and only go to the doctor when they have a major injury or illness. Socialized healthcare just encourages people to leech off of each other; after all, if you're forced to pay for it whether you use it or not, you might as well use it.

So, like I said, the problem with Canadian healthcare is that it's socialized.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I agree that there is a problem which is why I think there should be some reform and strong guidelines but I much rather perfer a socialized system to a private system.

Yes a person can get a cast put on that day but it can cost upwards of $4000 to do so and in Canada it is free.

People in the US who feel very sick will not go to the hospital because it cost too much money and 3 or 4 days later end up dying of the illness.

How many people would summit themselves to hospitals if SARS was to break out in the US? How much would it cost to be in quarentine for weeks? Do you think they would have flocked to the hospitals? No they would have avoided it because they could not afford it, then it would have spread like crazy.

Also this is a different person so I am using the same situation. Why should a child born into wealth recieved better health care that a child born into poverty?

View Poll Results: how would you vote in the next Canadian Fed Election?
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Feb 19, 2004, 11:12 am	#41 (permalink) (top)
Jackney Sneeb Igneous Magma Posts: 240	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Bayou,) Well jackney sneeb, fu(k off . . .<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> If you want someone to read your screed, I sugest you insult him at the end -- not the beginning. --Jackney Sneeb

Feb 19, 2004, 11:18 am	#42 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Jackney Sneeb,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,) As far as I know, We spent less per capita on healthcare than US citizen ...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Why is spending less money on health care good, while spending less money on education is bad? </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,) So who is doing a mass theft?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> The state. --Jackney Sneeb<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I never said spending less on education was good, but if we pay less for the same , or a better, service, then I don't see where is the disadvantage? Do I feel jealousy in your rant Jackney Sneeb?? It is not some libertarian bullshit so it is not good? Common , get on earth !

Feb 19, 2004, 11:52 am	#43 (permalink) (top)
Bayou Igneous Magma Location: Calgary Alberta Canada Posts: 154	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Jackney Sneeb,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Bayou,) Well jackney sneeb, fu(k off . . .<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> If you want somoene to read your screed, I sugest you insult him at the end -- not the beginning. --Jackney Sneeb<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> You see all I wanted you to read was what you quoted. People who are offended by your stance will genrally be in agreeance with what I was saying to you and read further to see what my take on this subject is. Oh I did insult you at the end see: </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (jackney sneeb) The total amount of money canada pays on healthcare is 9% of its GDP to support EVERYONE in Canada, unlike the sates who pay 14% of their GDP and 60 million people do NOT get coverage<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> See you are paying those high insurance premiums to be effectively ripped off, isnt that insulting? <span style='font-size:16pt;line-height:100%'><span style='font-family:Impact'><span style='color:green'>Vote NDP "The independence of art for the revolution. "The revolution for the complete liberation of art!"</span></span></span>

Feb 19, 2004, 02:21 pm	#44 (permalink) (top)
SVMc Lazy Sniper Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 513	I've been a resident of Canada for some time now, but I think I can still offer a bit of an outside opinion. I think Canadians have a love/hate relationship with the health care system largely due to the proximity of the United States. The United States is the ONLY industrial country that does not have pulic health care. I'd have to look this up again but I remember reading a recent study that said something like 40% of Americans (not even including illegals, migrants and homeless) do not have health coverage. There seems to be adequate evidence that the American system does not provide good health care. The are continually ranked very low on the Human Development Index for this category. On the other had Canada does have some serious issues with management of our health care. Because of the privatization of our neighbours health care facilities Doctors remuniration is typically higher in the United States, combined with the level high level of education in Canada (54% of Canadians over the age of 30 possess a university degree compared with 37% of Americans), mounting student loans, fluctuations in our health care system, the larger population of the United States we have sever "brain drain" when it comes to the medical profession, Doctors, Nurses and Technicians. This has pushed the Canadian system to have to increase Doctors fees not to match the average in the world but the American system which is often the highest paid category in technical and scientific feilds. Also we need to ask some serious questions about money management after the release of the Auditor Generals Report ($100 million in transfer fees?)... and the money to Paul Martin steamship lines 137 000 turining into 161 000 000.... that's some REALLY bad math. While it is true that people are more inclined to abuse a universal system than a private one, this can be addressed without full scale privatization. For instance I would be interested in learning more about user fees for minor procedures. I would probably not support a two teired system because I think that the bureaucracy involved in monitoring level of service, lines cuts etc... would outweigh the benefits of moving people who can afford it to private service. Futher more it has the potential to create a talent split between the public and priavte sector. Also many doctors for a very long time have advocated shifting more funding into preventative measures, this should also be examined... perhaps funded from user fees for the minor injury / ailment users. Capitalism is: Man exploiting man. Socialism is the other way around.

Feb 19, 2004, 02:37 pm	#45 (permalink) (top)
Jackney Sneeb Igneous Magma Posts: 240	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Jackney Sneeb,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Jackney Sneeb,) Why is spending less money on health care good, while spending less money on education is bad?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> So who is doing a mass theft?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> The state. --Jackney Sneeb<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,) I never said spending less on education was good, but if we pay less for the same , or a better, service, then I don't see where is the disadvantage? Do I feel jealousy in your rant Jackney Sneeb?? It is not some libertarian bullshit so it is not good? Common , get on earth !<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Absence of answer noted. --Jackney Sneeb

Feb 19, 2004, 02:55 pm	#46 (permalink) (top)
Jackney Sneeb Igneous Magma Posts: 240	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (SVMc,) While it is true that people are more inclined to abuse a universal system than a private one, this can be addressed without full scale privatization. For instance I would be interested in learning more about user fees for minor procedures.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> User fees!? You want the state to have a blank check against your wages to supposedly provide "quality" medical care (with underpaid doctors), and then you want to actually charge people more money at the time they actually use the system?? See, that's why I don't trust politicians with things like my health service. I know how they operate. First they tell you "We will give you health care for free! No more expensive corporations skimming off the top!" Then, once we have no more choice in the matter, they crank up the taxes, and charge "user fees" on top of it all! When I go to the doctor, I get what I pay for. I don't pay him $500 a month, and when I get sick he demands more. You can have a political monopoly on your health care if you think you're getting a deal. I think you're being scammed . . . --Jackney Sneeb </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (SVMc,) I would probably not support a two teired system because I think that the bureaucracy involved in monitoring level of service, lines cuts etc... would outweigh the benefits of moving people who can afford it to private service. Futher more it has the potential to create a talent split between the public and priavte sector. Also many doctors for a very long time have advocated shifting more funding into preventative measures, this should also be examined... perhaps funded from user fees for the minor injury / ailment users.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> More user fees, in a "system" that brags about being free for everyone. You already have a two-tiered system. Politicians and their rich cronies get to go wherever they want for the best medical care money can buy, while reserving the second-class care for their devoted serfs. --Jackney Sneeb

Feb 19, 2004, 03:08 pm	#47 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	Absence of arguments noted . I think you gone threw all your cliché Jackey ? Update : I see you still have some in reserve ! Did you ever got any care in Canada ? Me yes, and I had a real good service . But that , you don't want to hear it !

Feb 19, 2004, 03:11 pm	#48 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	And you don't want to understand also that we pay LESS, per capita , for the SAME service or a better one .

Feb 19, 2004, 03:16 pm	#49 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	Health care would Be sooooo much better in an libertarian Utopia !!! Talk me about thing wich work !

Feb 19, 2004, 03:19 pm	#50 (permalink) (top)
Jackney Sneeb Igneous Magma Posts: 240	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,) Absence of arguments noted . I think you gone threw all your cliché Jackey ? Update : I see you still have some in reserve ! Did you ever got any care in Canada ? Me yes, and I had a real good service . But that , you don't want to hear it !<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I'm sure you think it's just dandy. As I said, you can have a political monopoly on your health care if you think you're getting a good deal. I am pro choice in the matter. I don't trust crooks like George Bush, Hillary Clinton, Trent Lott, and Ted Kennedy with a monopoly stranglehold on my health care. --Jackney Sneeb

Feb 19, 2004, 03:25 pm	#51 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Jackney Sneeb,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,) Absence of arguments noted . I think you gone threw all your cliché Jackey ? Update : I see you still have some in reserve ! Did you ever got any care in Canada ? Me yes, and I had a real good service . But that , you don't want to hear it !<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I'm sure you think it's just dandy. As I said, you can have a political monopoly on your health care if you think you're getting a good deal. I am pro choice in the matter. I don't trust crooks like George Bush, Hillary Clinton, Trent Lott, and Ted Kennedy with a monopoly stranglehold on my health care. --Jackney Sneeb<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Well, if you don't trust you governement, make a revolution ,don't vote for them.If your point of is are so good, I'm sure you will have no problem to do so ! It is good to argue about stuff but do you act sometime Jackey?

Feb 19, 2004, 04:22 pm	#52 (permalink) (top)
Jackney Sneeb Igneous Magma Posts: 240	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Jackney Sneeb,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,) Absence of arguments noted . I think you gone threw all your cliché Jackey ? Update : I see you still have some in reserve ! Did you ever got any care in Canada ? Me yes, and I had a real good service . But that , you don't want to hear it !<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I'm sure you think it's just dandy. As I said, you can have a political monopoly on your health care if you think you're getting a good deal. I am pro choice in the matter. I don't trust crooks like George Bush, Hillary Clinton, Trent Lott, and Ted Kennedy with a monopoly stranglehold on my health care. --Jackney Sneeb<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Well, if you don't trust you governement, make a revolution ,don't vote for them.If your point of is are so good, I'm sure you will have no problem to do so ! It is good to argue about stuff but do you act sometime Jackey?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I'm glad you asked. I answered that for someone else just the other day: #12788 Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted by (Suburbanite,) Jackney Sneeb what are you doing to advance your views? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I debate the existence of "government" on a daily basis in various forums such as aol, PalTalk, and here. I provide a website at nogov4me.net with essays and other tidbits relating to the bogus nature of authority. I published a book on the folly of the belief in "government" called There's No Government Like No Government ISBN1553695739, reviews for which are available at amazon.com. I welcome comments from readers to update the book and am about to publish the second edition. I set a good example for my kids by refusing to participate in elections. Thank you for your interest in my anti-state activities. --Jackney Sneeb

Feb 19, 2004, 05:44 pm	#53 (permalink) (top)
SVMc Lazy Sniper Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 513	Jackney, Aside from being able to trace down the book and learn you name and academic history I have been un able to find any academic or refereed reviews of your book. There are certainly good discussions and some anarchist websites highly endores it. I'd be interested in reviewing both positive and critical reviews of your work. Capitalism is: Man exploiting man. Socialism is the other way around.

Feb 19, 2004, 06:36 pm	#54 (permalink) (top)
AnonT Molten Ash Location: Middle of nowhere, Nebraska Posts: 130	SVMc: First of all, no, 40% of the population isn't denied medical care. There's 30-40 million people (including illegals) who don't have insurance, but that doesn't mean that none of them can afford care. Actually, a lot of younger people who could afford insurance or get it through work choose to go without it because they never use it. I had medical insurance for about 3 years before I ever used it, and you can bet I considered cancelling it because I just don't need that much medical care. A lot of wealthier people also go without medical insurance, because they can afford to pay for care out of their own pockets. Also, as to Americans spending more on health care than Canadians: "Yes, Canada does spend less than 8 percent of GDP on health care vs. our 14.5 percent. But we spend much more on our elderly population than the Canadians do. This kicks up the costs because 30 percent of health-care dollars for an individual are spent in the final year of life." Larry Elder, The Ten Things You Can't Say In America Another part of the reason for our higher priced health care (discussed in the aforementioned book) is that we have extremely strict laws regarding who can and can't become a doctor - so strict that there hasn't been a new medical school opened in the US in over half a century because of the overly strict controls Congress placed on them, due mainly to the AMA. Because of this, the number of doctors in the US has risen far more slowly than the general population (in fact, during the 1980s, the number of doctors fell while the general population rose), meaning more demand than supply, meaning higher prices. If we had a freer market in regards to health care, we'd be kicking your asses cost wise. As far as waiting lines for Canadian hospitals not being as long as I claimed, you may be right that emergency services aren't that bad, but as for non-emergency care: "People in Canada wait in lines for hip replacements. According to an orthopedic surgeon in Ontario, the wait for an office appointment is four to eight months, and another twelve to twenty two months for the surgery. So, many Canadians head south of the border, and for ten thousand dollars they get a new plastic hip." Larry Elder, The Ten Things You Can't Say in America And, according to that same source, the Canadian government even had contracts with American hospitals to treat Canadian patients for them, because their hospitals couldn't handle the patient load. No, you DON'T have a better health care system than we do. You spend less partly because we spend more on our elderly citizens (because they don't have to wait a year or two for a hip replacement), and partly because our government has tried too hard to socialize health care and has placed too many restrictions on health care, not because they don't have enough involvement.

Feb 19, 2004, 07:25 pm	#55 (permalink) (top)
SVMc Lazy Sniper Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 513	I think you attributed many more claims to me than I addressed. First of all I have not looked into the wait period (I will in the next few days). For now I know that wait periods measured at that long of a time are frequently measurments taken in rural northern townships, I have yet to find a study that describes that lenght for an othopedic surgeon in the cities. On a personal note I waited about 30 min. to be referred to one this summer in an emergency room and was given an appointment in the morning... I know this is not uncommon where I live. But I will look for varifaible sources. Second, I did not say that 40% of americans were denied service I guessed it was 40% did not have coverage. According to the UNDP 2003 report 40 million Americans do not have coverage (I don't know what percent that is someon can look that up). This is also sourced by new internationalist. Yes America spends more on elder care than Canada, this is in large part due to the larger force of a baby boom in the States compared with Canada, also higher immigration rates keep have effected our demographic rate in respect to age. Per Capita figures would need to be looked up on a demographic basis, if anyone has sources on these feel free to supply them. As for "kicking or assets" sure the U.S. has better equipment than us already. But more of our population has access to our sufficent equipment and when there was a short fall of MRI in Southern Ontario the government did arrage cross-boarder transfers before they were able to open a new facility last year. As for the claim that we have droves of citizens streaming accross the boarder to your hospitals I have seen no such proof. Please provide sources. Finally it really depends on how "better" health care is measured. Sure the U.S. has better technology, more diverse choices of medication etc... but I still think Canadians have better access.... the U.S. insurance system is widely critized as a conglomerate. And if the U.S. system is so good why all the fuss about imported drugs from Canada? Capitalism is: Man exploiting man. Socialism is the other way around.

Feb 19, 2004, 09:33 pm	#56 (permalink) (top)
Jackney Sneeb Igneous Magma Posts: 240	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (SVMc,) Jackney, Aside from being able to trace down the book and learn you name and academic history I have been un able to find any academic or refereed reviews of your book. There are certainly good discussions and some anarchist websites highly endores it. I'd be interested in reviewing both positive and critical reviews of your work.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> See amazon.com under the ISBN, name of the book, and the author -- Jackney Sneeb. There's No Government Like No Government --Jackney Sneeb

Feb 20, 2004, 12:04 am	#57 (permalink) (top)
SVMc Lazy Sniper Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 513	Thanks for the link FYI the title and ISBN number didn't work when I searched Amazon they did work for Chapters / Indigo. Capitalism is: Man exploiting man. Socialism is the other way around.

Feb 20, 2004, 02:10 am	#59 (permalink) (top)
Evil Baby Igneous Magma Posts: 313	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Jackney Sneeb,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Evil Baby,) and one consumer can't boycott a company out of existance. Once consumer can't even start a protest. Obviously it takes more then one person, but if a company or Country is only pissing off one person they they are doing a pretty damn good job.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> One consumer can spend his money elsewhere. Can one voter boycott the state out of existence? Can he refuse to pay for service he doesn't use, want, or need? Which of the following demands that you fork over a chunk of your wages whether you want its product/service or not: __a) the state __b) a company When you refuse to do business with a company, you retain the benefit of keeping your money. When you are dissatisfied with the crap the (state) monopoly offers you, do you keep your money? No. I prefer the system that depends on satisfying my needs or it doesn't get paid. That puts the power in my hands, not politicians'. --Jackney Sneeb<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I know I've said this before but I will say it again for this post. What happens when you live in a small town and there is only one option. Canada is the second largest country in the world and has a population of 30 million. Are you awear of how much space there is? Is it fair that somebody was born with a talent to play a certain sport and therefor they automatically get better treatment? Should a child that is born in to wealth deserver better medical treatment then a child born into poverty?

Feb 20, 2004, 02:15 am	#60 (permalink) (top)
Evil Baby Igneous Magma Posts: 313	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (AnonT,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Evil Baby,) I will agree that medicare is underfunded. This underfunding creates long waiting lines.... Also I think people need to be charged for stupid things, like going to the emergency room for a bandaid, or when they call 9-11 for no good reason. One lady in Niagara Falls called 9-11 because she swalloed(sp) a fly. She called from Clifton Hill which is insane on Friday nights due to traffic from both the US and Canada and little kids trying to show off their cars. Things like that need to be charged so people take more care with what they call 9-11 for. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> This is exactly the problem with socialized health care. Everything is free, so people use the service whether they need it or not. In the US, when someone has a cold, they spend a couple bucks on some soup and a bottle of NyQuil. In Canada, they head to the hospital. In the US, we get over our colds within a few days, because we spend a little money taking care of it ourselves. In Canada, the person heading to the hospital has to wait in line behind the people who got minor cuts and bruises, the other people with very minor, not life threatening illnesses, the person who called an ambulance when she swallowed a fly, etc., and all that time sitting in that cold waiting room just makes them even sicker. Two days later, when they finally get to see the doctor, the guy from the US is already much better and getting on with his life. And a week later when they each break their arm, the American gets a cast put on that day. The Canadian spends a couple days waiting in line between the people who got minor cuts and bruises, the people who went to see the doctor when they got a minor cold.... Sure, the American pays for any services he uses, and the Canadian doesn't pay based on his services. But that just ends up rewarding the people who go to the hospital in Canada for minor things. They get free treatment for whatever they want, while slowing things down for the people who are kind enough to shorten the lines by staying home when their injury or illness is minor and only go to the doctor when they have a major injury or illness. Socialized healthcare just encourages people to leech off of each other; after all, if you're forced to pay for it whether you use it or not, you might as well use it. So, like I said, the problem with Canadian healthcare is that it's socialized.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I agree that there is a problem which is why I think there should be some reform and strong guidelines but I much rather perfer a socialized system to a private system. Yes a person can get a cast put on that day but it can cost upwards of $4000 to do so and in Canada it is free. People in the US who feel very sick will not go to the hospital because it cost too much money and 3 or 4 days later end up dying of the illness. How many people would summit themselves to hospitals if SARS was to break out in the US? How much would it cost to be in quarentine for weeks? Do you think they would have flocked to the hospitals? No they would have avoided it because they could not afford it, then it would have spread like crazy. Also this is a different person so I am using the same situation. Why should a child born into wealth recieved better health care that a child born into poverty?