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castille · Feb 14, 2004, 07:27 am

Just curious, anyone here really poor?

I don't mean "middle class poor". Thats when you can afford luxuries such as computers, televisions, a roof, and a microwave.

I'm talking about real poverty - malnutrition, begging, hunger, living in a dumpster.

Its just that everyone in here seems to say they're pretty poor, I expect at least 50% to be living in poverty.

french_jew · Feb 14, 2004, 10:00 am

I''m not poor... but I have a big family (we're nine at home).

Nathan

PS : I could vote "I'm rich enough to afford college. I even go to college.".
But that does not mean anything, because in France, High School and before, it's free.
For University it's really cheap (around 300 dollars).
So I can afford University and college in France, but maybe not in the US

**Pooeypants** · Feb 14, 2004, 10:05 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)
Just curious, anyone here really poor?

I don't mean "middle class poor". Thats when you can afford luxuries such as computers, televisions, a roof, and a microwave.

I'm talking about real poverty - malnutrition, begging, hunger, living in a dumpster.

Its just that everyone in here seems to say they're pretty poor, I expect at least 50% to be living in poverty.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
This poll is ridiculous, how can anyone without a PC and net access vote here?

Mozart1220 · Feb 14, 2004, 12:22 pm

I have a friend who barely knows where his next meal is coming from, his apartment is a room and a toilet, and he often has no heat. He DOES however, have an e-mail adress and checks his mail at the public library.

**Pooeypants** · Feb 14, 2004, 01:28 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mozart1220,)
I have a friend who barely knows where his next meal is coming from, his apartment is a room and a toilet, and he often has no heat. He DOES however, have an e-mail adress and checks his mail at the public library.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
lol, there are always expections to the rule.

foadi · Feb 14, 2004, 01:33 pm

I am richer than all of you.

Palindrome · Feb 14, 2004, 01:43 pm

This is, in general a ridiculous poll. People with malnutrition are not going to be frequenting these boards. The example of the man with a room and a toilet who often has no heat just doesn't cut it. Poor is relative. That man would be very well off in comparison to an average Haitian. He eats well and has a public library. He can get health care if he needs it, whether or not he has any money. It's all relative.

foadi · Feb 14, 2004, 01:46 pm

I'm still richer than you.

MiniPhreek · Feb 14, 2004, 03:18 pm

"I'm still richer than you."
Wow, do you feel special?

well first off i have to comment on the Maslo Hirearchy of needs, if yourr woundering ware your next meal is comming from your less likley to worry about politics and debate.

"I'm rich enough to afford college. I even go to college."
i'm middle class but being in Canada University is relativly cheap round $6000 a year is the most expensive plus i have the Ontario Student assistence plan to help out, so as long as i work a part time minimum wage job through out the year i can aford to go to school. but i have not always been this luckly, i'm no stranger to the park bench.

Suburbanite · Feb 14, 2004, 03:39 pm

I go to college, but I can't afford it.

Packratt · Feb 14, 2004, 03:54 pm

Too many varients in between the poll questions, so I cannot partake in it.

Let's see, we have no phone service but we do have internet access due to subsidies available for homeschooling our children. We do miss meals, I only eat once a day in order to increase the ammount of limited food we have available so my children can eat sufficiently. There have been some days that we had nothing though. We almost lost the house this month and would have been homeless, luckily I found enough thinks I could sell in order to save us this month.

There have been times that I've been in the middle class, but there have been times I have been homeless and without food or shelter for a period of time.

Does this make me richer or poorer than anyone else?

Depends on your perspective.

lcswoosh · Feb 14, 2004, 04:16 pm

I'm just middle class...

Catch 22 · Feb 14, 2004, 04:53 pm

Who here could be extremely poor if they had pc acces? this is just stupid.

Packratt · Feb 14, 2004, 04:57 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Catch 22,)
Who here could be extremely poor if they had pc acces? this is just stupid.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

It's possible, depending on where you live of course. Even if I had no shelter or food, I could go into a library and use a computer there. Even though I have no phone service I can still access the internet and do so for free, I haven't bought any of my computer equipment, I liberated all of it from dumpsters and from people and companies who were wastefull.

*shrug* But it is true that you're not going to get a fair representation of the wealth distribution of any populous from an online poll, especially here.

AnonT · Feb 14, 2004, 06:50 pm

I make less than $15000/year, and although I live at home, I pay almost half the rent and bills because my dad makes only barely more than I do. I can still afford to go to college, even without financial aid, even though our total household income is relatively low, and we occasionally have to get creative with our finances to find our next meal. I'm definitely lower class (for an American, at least), not middle class. I don't think I'd call myself "poor", certainly not to the extent of a lot of people, though.

RebelWithanAK · Feb 14, 2004, 07:59 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Packratt,)
It's possible, depending on where you live of course. Even if I had no shelter or food, I could go into a library and use a computer there. Even though I have no phone service I can still access the internet and do so for free, I haven't bought any of my computer equipment, I liberated all of it from dumpsters and from people and companies who were wastefull.

*shrug* But it is true that you're not going to get a fair representation of the wealth distribution of any populous from an online poll, especially here.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>Well, where I am you can't get a library card without a permanent address and photo ID. But I agree, having an online poll asking about wealth will give you a pretty slanted view on reality.

However, I will say this: I'm not in college this year because I couldn't afford tuition, even with financial aid. Since I'm not in school, I'm not eligible for my health care plan, and since I've no job that I was 'laid off' from, having spent last year in college, I can't get unemployment and thus Medicaid. And because of this job market, I'm working three temp jobs just to keep myself fed, clothed and internetted (two of the jobs are computer-related), but because I can't adequately explain how much I really make (because it fluctuates radically month to month) I still can't get Medicaid. I just went to the emergency room for an ear infection. God bless capitalism.

AnonT · Feb 14, 2004, 08:19 pm

Keep in mind that if we lived in a purely capitalistic society, the government wouldn't be taking 20-30% of your money before you even had the check in your hand, nor would they be taking an extra 15-20% of your money after the check was in your hand. I'm in the lowest income tax bracket, and I pay about 35% of my income to taxes. I could afford a hell of a lot more if we got a real tax cut, and you could probably afford better health care as well.

Of course, Bush is only interested in cutting taxes for the wealthy, and the Democrats, as much as they whine about his tax cut only benefitting the wealthy, won't propose a tax cut that would help the poor.

Feb 14, 2004, 08:29 pm

Can you offer a better, as in more clear definition of poverty or "poor?" After all one can fit into four of the five options without ever making an income over the poverty line.

This clearly means that the gap between the first four options and the fifth is so large as to make both extremes essentially meaningless.

Toussaint · Feb 14, 2004, 08:36 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (AnonT,)
Keep in mind that if we lived in a purely capitalistic society, the government wouldn't be taking 20-30% of your money before you even had the check in your hand, nor would they be taking an extra 15-20% of your money after the check was in your hand.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

They government has no right to do this, yet, we let them do it anyway. The problem is that we keep on voting for these criminals because they tell us that we'll get more of a piece of the booty (taxes).

Does not a system in which your rights to that which you earn are protected sound much better than this? That is what the government was formed for, after all...

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
I could afford a hell of a lot more if we got a real tax cut, and you could probably afford better health care as well. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Well, of course it's tough when the government forces you to pay for someone else's education, art, farm subsidies, food, foreign aid, and viagra. But hey, we keep voting them into office.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (AnonT)
Of course, Bush is only interested in cutting taxes for the wealthy, and the Democrats, as much as they whine about his tax cut only benefitting the wealthy, won't propose a tax cut that would help the poor<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

How about Social Security reform? From what you've said you may pay more in Social Security payroll taxes than in income taxes. Is this the case?

Feb 14, 2004, 09:48 pm

FWIW The last numbers I have seen had the total tax burden (federal state, and local) of the average US inmate (or citizen if you prefer) being 52% of his/her income.. keep in mind that the 20-36% is only the explicit income tax.. on top of that there is the equal amount of employer burder that would otherwise be at least split between wage earner and employer, social insecurity, sales tax, property tax, luxury taxes, import taxes, tariffs, etc ad infinitum....

View Poll Results: Are you poor?
	0	0%
	0	0%
I'm homeless.	1	1.79%
I only have the absolute necessities: shelter, bread, and water.	4	7.14%
I'm wealthier than most of the world. I have a roof, food, computer, electricity, and clothes.	33	58.93%
I'm rich enough to afford college. I even go to college.	17	30.36%
I'm so rich Mr Bill Gates calls me "Sir".	1	1.79%
Voters: 56. You may not vote

Feb 14, 2004, 07:27 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	Just curious, anyone here really poor? I don't mean "middle class poor". Thats when you can afford luxuries such as computers, televisions, a roof, and a microwave. I'm talking about real poverty - malnutrition, begging, hunger, living in a dumpster. Its just that everyone in here seems to say they're pretty poor, I expect at least 50% to be living in poverty. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Feb 14, 2004, 10:05 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,602	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,) Just curious, anyone here really poor? I don't mean "middle class poor". Thats when you can afford luxuries such as computers, televisions, a roof, and a microwave. I'm talking about real poverty - malnutrition, begging, hunger, living in a dumpster. Its just that everyone in here seems to say they're pretty poor, I expect at least 50% to be living in poverty.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> This poll is ridiculous, how can anyone without a PC and net access vote here? War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Feb 14, 2004, 12:22 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
Mozart1220 Igneous Magma Posts: 687	I have a friend who barely knows where his next meal is coming from, his apartment is a room and a toilet, and he often has no heat. He DOES however, have an e-mail adress and checks his mail at the public library. Big Jr is watching you!

Feb 14, 2004, 01:28 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,602	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mozart1220,) I have a friend who barely knows where his next meal is coming from, his apartment is a room and a toilet, and he often has no heat. He DOES however, have an e-mail adress and checks his mail at the public library.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> lol, there are always expections to the rule. War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Feb 14, 2004, 10:00 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
french_jew Molten Ash Posts: 43	I''m not poor... but I have a big family (we're nine at home). Nathan PS : I could vote "I'm rich enough to afford college. I even go to college.". But that does not mean anything, because in France, High School and before, it's free. For University it's really cheap (around 300 dollars). So I can afford University and college in France, but maybe not in the US

Feb 14, 2004, 01:33 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
foadi Sedimentary Rock Posts: 15	I am richer than all of you. I'm a fed.

Feb 14, 2004, 01:43 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
Palindrome Sedimentary Rock Location: Atlanta, Georgia Posts: 4	This is, in general a ridiculous poll. People with malnutrition are not going to be frequenting these boards. The example of the man with a room and a toilet who often has no heat just doesn't cut it. Poor is relative. That man would be very well off in comparison to an average Haitian. He eats well and has a public library. He can get health care if he needs it, whether or not he has any money. It's all relative. http://freestateproject.org/ http://freestatecafe.org/ http://fanaticism.com/

Feb 14, 2004, 01:46 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
foadi Sedimentary Rock Posts: 15	I'm still richer than you. I'm a fed.

Feb 14, 2004, 03:18 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
MiniPhreek Sedimentary Rock Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 9	"I'm still richer than you." Wow, do you feel special? well first off i have to comment on the Maslo Hirearchy of needs, if yourr woundering ware your next meal is comming from your less likley to worry about politics and debate. "I'm rich enough to afford college. I even go to college." i'm middle class but being in Canada University is relativly cheap round $6000 a year is the most expensive plus i have the Ontario Student assistence plan to help out, so as long as i work a part time minimum wage job through out the year i can aford to go to school. but i have not always been this luckly, i'm no stranger to the park bench.

Feb 14, 2004, 03:39 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
Suburbanite BANNED Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,203	I go to college, but I can't afford it.

Feb 14, 2004, 03:54 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
Packratt Molten Ash Location: Crimetown USA Posts: 130	Too many varients in between the poll questions, so I cannot partake in it. Let's see, we have no phone service but we do have internet access due to subsidies available for homeschooling our children. We do miss meals, I only eat once a day in order to increase the ammount of limited food we have available so my children can eat sufficiently. There have been some days that we had nothing though. We almost lost the house this month and would have been homeless, luckily I found enough thinks I could sell in order to save us this month. There have been times that I've been in the middle class, but there have been times I have been homeless and without food or shelter for a period of time. Does this make me richer or poorer than anyone else? Depends on your perspective. "...the worker's liberty... is only a theoretical freedom, lacking any means for its possible realisation, and consequently it is only a fictitious liberty, an utter falsehood. -Bakunin

Feb 14, 2004, 04:16 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
lcswoosh Backed by WMD Location: Iowa Posts: 34	I'm just middle class...

Feb 14, 2004, 04:53 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
Catch 22 Igneous Magma Posts: 374	Who here could be extremely poor if they had pc acces? this is just stupid. When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, militarism and economic exploitation are incapable of being conquered Martin Luther King Jr.

Feb 14, 2004, 04:57 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
Packratt Molten Ash Location: Crimetown USA Posts: 130	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Catch 22,) Who here could be extremely poor if they had pc acces? this is just stupid.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> It's possible, depending on where you live of course. Even if I had no shelter or food, I could go into a library and use a computer there. Even though I have no phone service I can still access the internet and do so for free, I haven't bought any of my computer equipment, I liberated all of it from dumpsters and from people and companies who were wastefull. shrug But it is true that you're not going to get a fair representation of the wealth distribution of any populous from an online poll, especially here. "...the worker's liberty... is only a theoretical freedom, lacking any means for its possible realisation, and consequently it is only a fictitious liberty, an utter falsehood. -Bakunin

Feb 14, 2004, 06:50 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
AnonT Molten Ash Location: Middle of nowhere, Nebraska Posts: 130	I make less than $15000/year, and although I live at home, I pay almost half the rent and bills because my dad makes only barely more than I do. I can still afford to go to college, even without financial aid, even though our total household income is relatively low, and we occasionally have to get creative with our finances to find our next meal. I'm definitely lower class (for an American, at least), not middle class. I don't think I'd call myself "poor", certainly not to the extent of a lot of people, though.

Feb 14, 2004, 07:59 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Packratt,) It's possible, depending on where you live of course. Even if I had no shelter or food, I could go into a library and use a computer there. Even though I have no phone service I can still access the internet and do so for free, I haven't bought any of my computer equipment, I liberated all of it from dumpsters and from people and companies who were wastefull. shrug But it is true that you're not going to get a fair representation of the wealth distribution of any populous from an online poll, especially here.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>Well, where I am you can't get a library card without a permanent address and photo ID. But I agree, having an online poll asking about wealth will give you a pretty slanted view on reality. However, I will say this: I'm not in college this year because I couldn't afford tuition, even with financial aid. Since I'm not in school, I'm not eligible for my health care plan, and since I've no job that I was 'laid off' from, having spent last year in college, I can't get unemployment and thus Medicaid. And because of this job market, I'm working three temp jobs just to keep myself fed, clothed and internetted (two of the jobs are computer-related), but because I can't adequately explain how much I really make (because it fluctuates radically month to month) I still can't get Medicaid. I just went to the emergency room for an ear infection. God bless capitalism. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Feb 14, 2004, 08:19 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
AnonT Molten Ash Location: Middle of nowhere, Nebraska Posts: 130	Keep in mind that if we lived in a purely capitalistic society, the government wouldn't be taking 20-30% of your money before you even had the check in your hand, nor would they be taking an extra 15-20% of your money after the check was in your hand. I'm in the lowest income tax bracket, and I pay about 35% of my income to taxes. I could afford a hell of a lot more if we got a real tax cut, and you could probably afford better health care as well. Of course, Bush is only interested in cutting taxes for the wealthy, and the Democrats, as much as they whine about his tax cut only benefitting the wealthy, won't propose a tax cut that would help the poor.

Feb 14, 2004, 08:29 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	Can you offer a better, as in more clear definition of poverty or "poor?" After all one can fit into four of the five options without ever making an income over the poverty line. This clearly means that the gap between the first four options and the fifth is so large as to make both extremes essentially meaningless.

Feb 14, 2004, 08:36 pm	#19 (permalink) (top)
Toussaint Molten Ash Posts: 43	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (AnonT,) Keep in mind that if we lived in a purely capitalistic society, the government wouldn't be taking 20-30% of your money before you even had the check in your hand, nor would they be taking an extra 15-20% of your money after the check was in your hand.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> They government has no right to do this, yet, we let them do it anyway. The problem is that we keep on voting for these criminals because they tell us that we'll get more of a piece of the booty (taxes). Does not a system in which your rights to that which you earn are protected sound much better than this? That is what the government was formed for, after all... </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by I could afford a hell of a lot more if we got a real tax cut, and you could probably afford better health care as well. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Well, of course it's tough when the government forces you to pay for someone else's education, art, farm subsidies, food, foreign aid, and viagra. But hey, we keep voting them into office. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (AnonT) Of course, Bush is only interested in cutting taxes for the wealthy, and the Democrats, as much as they whine about his tax cut only benefitting the wealthy, won't propose a tax cut that would help the poor<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> How about Social Security reform? From what you've said you may pay more in Social Security payroll taxes than in income taxes. Is this the case? "Government is the great fiction through which everyone endeavors to live at the expense of everyone else." - Frederic Bastiat "Now go and sin no more!" - Jesus Christ

Feb 14, 2004, 09:48 pm	#20 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	FWIW The last numbers I have seen had the total tax burden (federal state, and local) of the average US inmate (or citizen if you prefer) being 52% of his/her income.. keep in mind that the 20-36% is only the explicit income tax.. on top of that there is the equal amount of employer burder that would otherwise be at least split between wage earner and employer, social insecurity, sales tax, property tax, luxury taxes, import taxes, tariffs, etc ad infinitum....