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Impenitent · Mar 1, 2004, 03:17 am

no, you cannot "agree", because you have no choice...

and there are far better ways to avoid taxes than immigration

Mathieu · Mar 1, 2004, 03:41 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
no, you cannot "agree", because you have no choice...

and there are far better ways to avoid taxes than immigration<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

You have the choice, you can leave the country.If I did not agree, I would not pay them, I would maybe go to jail, but I would'nt pay them.

Mia · Mar 1, 2004, 05:17 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
no, you cannot "agree", because you have no choice...

and there are far better ways to avoid taxes than immigration<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

If you are not paying your taxes I want you off the roads right now. And stay out of the library.

I'm not going to waste time arguing with you that part of our taxes should be used to help the poor and/or ill.

My mother worked from the time she was a teenager until she was 55 years old and paid a lot of taxes in that time and right now she has to let the state pick up her medical bills and if you and Kyran were in charge, she would be dead because you don't want her taking some of that money back.

So I am very personally offended by your positions.

Mar 1, 2004, 11:01 am

The "love it or leave it " argument fails to offer ANY support at all for the position that coercion and violence are good, and it also fails to even address the absence of choice. Rather it is just a red herring.

As for roads and libraries, when no choice exists there is no responsibility. If the federales allowed for private investement in roads, then we may have choice, but that is not the situation in which we find ourselves, so any use of these roads cannot be used against anyone, just as you cannot hold anyone accountable for breathing.

As for government libraries, not only is this not a necessity, fortunately libraries are starting to come under the knife. I would gladly be rid of government libraries for we would lose nothing at all. But even so, again since these have been paid for with our stolen funds, with our slave labor, one cannot honestly nor seriously suggest that we cannot use them as we see fit.

BTW nice appeal to emotion, but keep in mind that if the government had not been taking 50% plus of her income, and everyone elses she would not only have had the money to support herself then, but she would be far better off now. Add on to that the fact that with the reduction of the costs of taxation, products would be FAR less expensive so her standard of living would improve dramatically.

And finally she could sleep well at night without the burden of knowing that she was living off the blood, sweat, time, and effort of others.

Also you ought not ignore the fact that as governments take more and more of our time and labor, the amount going to others, the amounts given to charity decrease. The only ones who benefit from such acts of theft, coercion and violence are those who enjoy such acts, politicians, and bureaucrats. I would prefer that people like your mother benefit, rather than those too lazy to be bothered to develop a skill, or those who are parasites such as politicians.

Impenitent · Mar 1, 2004, 01:14 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
no, you cannot "agree", because you have no choice...

and there are far better ways to avoid taxes than immigration<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

You have the choice, you can leave the country.If I did not agree, I would not pay them, I would maybe go to jail, but I would'nt pay them.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

that is not a choice... that is forcing you to do something...

Impenitent · Mar 1, 2004, 01:17 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mia,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
no, you cannot "agree", because you have no choice...

and there are far better ways to avoid taxes than immigration<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

If you are not paying your taxes I want you off the roads right now. And stay out of the library.

I'm not going to waste time arguing with you that part of our taxes should be used to help the poor and/or ill.

My mother worked from the time she was a teenager until she was 55 years old and paid a lot of taxes in that time and right now she has to let the state pick up her medical bills and if you and Kyran were in charge, she would be dead because you don't want her taking some of that money back.

So I am very personally offended by your positions.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

:rolleyes:

I never said I wasn't paying taxes, I like every other person who buys anything in america is paying taxes... there is no choice not to pay taxes...

Mia · Mar 1, 2004, 03:25 pm

OK - you can drive on the roads, then ;-)

Mia · Mar 1, 2004, 03:28 pm

She never feels she's living off of the blood, sweat, and tears of others. She doesn't live off the government, one. Two, the health care she receives is her own tax dollars coming back to her, in her eyes and mine.

Mia · Mar 1, 2004, 03:31 pm

Sorry - this wasn't meant to be two posts. the point was not an appeal to emotion. The point was the recipients of some of the "social programs" are not all parasites. You may disagree but I don't think someone who paid so much into the system for so long and then took health care when needed is a parasite.

pamiamiam · Mar 1, 2004, 05:23 pm

I'm disabled by poor health, living on $500/mo and Medicaid. I have this computer from better days when I worked and went to school 70-80 hours a week until I got my PhD. Now I can't practice my profession after all and depend on that small social security $$ for the rest of my life. I hold my breath every time politicians, especially Bush, talk about Medicare, Soc.Sec., budget, "discretionary spending"(all social programs--everything but defense). I feel myself slipping into poverty, hopelessness as everything I have wears out, breaks, etc. I feel poor.

OdieWon · Mar 1, 2004, 06:41 pm

WELL,

In the last year we have seen 2 or 3 months where if we hadn't had some friends, and family looking out for us, we could have been homeless.

I'd say we were "teetering". There was some meals of beans and rice (not just because that's our favorite food) because that's all that can be had for a family of 5 on $2

Mar 1, 2004, 09:18 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
She never feels she's living off of the blood, sweat, and tears of others. She doesn't live off the government, one. Two, the health care she receives is her own tax dollars coming back to her, in her eyes and mine.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Well not everyone takes responsibility for their actions, and that is a shame. Out of curiosity, has your mother taken, or would she take, a greater dollar amount than was paid in, including all of these "services" that you say we are somehow obligated to pay for?

If she has taken any amount over the exact dollar amount she paid in, then youy have even less ground upon which to claim that she is not living off of the slavery of others.

Also, out of the normal courtesy of intellectual discussions, would you care to address the other points I made, any one of which completely6 defeats the taxation is justified presumption?

Mia · Mar 2, 2004, 04:08 am

Not really. Especially since I think it takes a sick individual not to want to have services like public hospitals.

And you are still not understanding. My mother is not "living off" anyone - she receives health care. You think she deserves death and Kyran thinks she deserves imprisonment for this.

There are all kinds of countries who do things differently - all take from one place to give in another in some manner. Taxation is ours.

Do you have a model of something different that works better? In real life, not theory.

Mia · Mar 2, 2004, 04:10 am

BTW, I personally paid out more taxes last year than my mother has used thus far. I anticipate that I will keep outpacing her expenses, so we are not stealing from you right now.

Mar 2, 2004, 12:56 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Also, out of the normal courtesy of intellectual discussions, would you care to address the other points I made, any one of which completely6 defeats the taxation is justified presumption?
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Mia's response: <blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Not really. Especially since I think it takes a sick individual not to want to have services like public hospitals.
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I am all for public hospitals. I am pointing out that GOVERNMENT hospitals are run on theft, violence, and coercion. Nice strawman and appeal to emotion though.

So why not address the points made? After all this is a cornerstone of civil discussion?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
And you are still not understanding. My mother is not "living off" anyone - she receives health care. You think she deserves death and Kyran thinks she deserves imprisonment for this. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I understand perfectly, which if of course what you are taking offense to. I have not said that she deserves death, this is your strawman.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
BTW, I personally paid out more taxes last year than my mother has used thus far. I anticipate that I will keep outpacing her expenses, so we are not stealing from you right now.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Ah... but according to you, you owe all of that money to the state and willingly give it to the state, not to your mother. So in fact you are reaping the rewards of theft. I notice that you did not address the question yet again, but instead avoided it with this red herring. Can we therefore assume that in fact your mother has taken far more than was taken from her?

Mia · Mar 2, 2004, 05:27 pm

Obviously I did answer your question. If my personal taxes have covered her thus far, then she hasn't even gotten back what she paid in all the years she worked.

I never said I "owe" all this money to the state - I said I don't disagree with the state taking this money that is partially used in things like public hospitals and health care for those who can't afford it.

And since my mother did her part and paid into the system all those years she is no theif for taking advantage of the services provided from it.

This argument really belongs on the other topic board, but things have gotten intermingled.

You can't understand perfectly if you insists she "lives off" everyone else. In the sense of her bills to live being paid by the state. Unless you characterize health care as "living off" in which case it's not so much taking offense as feeling you are exaggerating on purpose to make her out to be the theif you feel she is.

I shouldn't have brought up my mother, because well before she ever needed one I supported part of my tax dollars going to those who need these services.

The point in bringing her up was an example of someone who pays far more into the system than they take and therefore are not theives. It doesn't work perfectly, but this is how it's meant to work. Even welfare is supposed to be a temporary boost to get the person back on their feet and in a tax-paying job again.

There may be a better way to handle these matters rather than the current one. But with the way it is currently set up, I am no theif if I ever need to use one of the services currently being supported by my tax dollars.

Mar 2, 2004, 05:53 pm

So if a mugger gives you money you are not taking stolen funds... somehow this does not make any sense..

You still have not addressed the question for you continue to avoid the fact that you have claimed that the money stolen from honest innocent people is used for all of the bureaucratic nonsense, but then you argue as if it were a savings account from which you can draw upon claiming that it is your money. So in the first instance you claim that the money is the state's but in the second you claim it is your own.

It is to this double standard that I have directed attention. If you stick to your first claim, then your mother is currently a theif. If you stick to your second then the takings are theft. You have not addressed this contradiction in your positions.

I agree that you should not have brought up your mother, for two reasons. It was used as an appeal to emotion which has no place in a reasoned discussion, and also because it failed to demonstrate what you hoped to demonstrate.

Mia · Mar 2, 2004, 06:27 pm

No, I realize you think you know everything, but that is not true. As I already stated, I wanted to use a real-world example of something rather than a hypothetical. I thought of saying "I know a woman..." and then thought why not be honest?

It was wrong to bring her up personally but not for the reasons you stated. No one here knows me to give more of a crap about my mother than any other random person, so it was not an appeal to emotion.

I'm sorry the true reason is not good enough for you but I can't do more than tell it.

As to your other (crap) argument. I do not have to be boxed in to either of your theories. I believe (and this is my opinion, to which I am entitled) that it is good for society to tax to take care of certain things for us. I believe that health care for those who can't afford it is one of those things.

I don't think my mother was stolen from when she paid her taxes, and I don't think she is stealing when she uses the services her tax dollars went in to pay for. It's quite simple.

Mia · Mar 2, 2004, 06:29 pm

There may be a better way to handle these matters rather than the current one. But with the way it is currently set up, I am no theif if I ever need to use one of the services currently being supported by my tax dollars.

Mar 2, 2004, 07:51 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
No, I realize you think you know everything, but that is not true. As I already stated, I wanted to use a real-world example of something rather than a hypothetical. I thought of saying "I know a woman..." and then thought why not be honest?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Perhaps you should read the etiquette at least once. Ad hominem attacks are specifically addressed. I make no claims of omniscience, nor has anything I have saion any such assumptions. There is no place for persconal attacks.

What you call crap theories are simply facts about the world.

When the rational person discovers that their beliefs and the world are conflicting, they alter the belief. The irrational person denies reality, or in this case, calls it "crap."

Finally, and yet again let me address your appeal to emotion with regard to health care. I agree that charity can be good, contrary to your implications I have not taken the position against the ill. I have however pointed out that violence, coercion, threats, and theft are not justified, nor good things. I have also already pointed out that peaceful, voluntary, and EFFECTIVE solutions are certainly welcome and good.

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Voters: 56. You may not vote

Mar 1, 2004, 03:17 am	#101 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	no, you cannot "agree", because you have no choice... and there are far better ways to avoid taxes than immigration "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Mar 1, 2004, 03:41 am	#102 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) no, you cannot "agree", because you have no choice... and there are far better ways to avoid taxes than immigration<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> You have the choice, you can leave the country.If I did not agree, I would not pay them, I would maybe go to jail, but I would'nt pay them.

Mar 1, 2004, 05:17 am	#103 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) no, you cannot "agree", because you have no choice... and there are far better ways to avoid taxes than immigration<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> If you are not paying your taxes I want you off the roads right now. And stay out of the library. I'm not going to waste time arguing with you that part of our taxes should be used to help the poor and/or ill. My mother worked from the time she was a teenager until she was 55 years old and paid a lot of taxes in that time and right now she has to let the state pick up her medical bills and if you and Kyran were in charge, she would be dead because you don't want her taking some of that money back. So I am very personally offended by your positions. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 1, 2004, 01:14 pm	#105 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) no, you cannot "agree", because you have no choice... and there are far better ways to avoid taxes than immigration<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> You have the choice, you can leave the country.If I did not agree, I would not pay them, I would maybe go to jail, but I would'nt pay them.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> that is not a choice... that is forcing you to do something... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Mar 1, 2004, 11:01 am	#104 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	The "love it or leave it " argument fails to offer ANY support at all for the position that coercion and violence are good, and it also fails to even address the absence of choice. Rather it is just a red herring. As for roads and libraries, when no choice exists there is no responsibility. If the federales allowed for private investement in roads, then we may have choice, but that is not the situation in which we find ourselves, so any use of these roads cannot be used against anyone, just as you cannot hold anyone accountable for breathing. As for government libraries, not only is this not a necessity, fortunately libraries are starting to come under the knife. I would gladly be rid of government libraries for we would lose nothing at all. But even so, again since these have been paid for with our stolen funds, with our slave labor, one cannot honestly nor seriously suggest that we cannot use them as we see fit. BTW nice appeal to emotion, but keep in mind that if the government had not been taking 50% plus of her income, and everyone elses she would not only have had the money to support herself then, but she would be far better off now. Add on to that the fact that with the reduction of the costs of taxation, products would be FAR less expensive so her standard of living would improve dramatically. And finally she could sleep well at night without the burden of knowing that she was living off the blood, sweat, time, and effort of others. Also you ought not ignore the fact that as governments take more and more of our time and labor, the amount going to others, the amounts given to charity decrease. The only ones who benefit from such acts of theft, coercion and violence are those who enjoy such acts, politicians, and bureaucrats. I would prefer that people like your mother benefit, rather than those too lazy to be bothered to develop a skill, or those who are parasites such as politicians.

Mar 1, 2004, 01:17 pm	#106 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mia,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) no, you cannot "agree", because you have no choice... and there are far better ways to avoid taxes than immigration<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> If you are not paying your taxes I want you off the roads right now. And stay out of the library. I'm not going to waste time arguing with you that part of our taxes should be used to help the poor and/or ill. My mother worked from the time she was a teenager until she was 55 years old and paid a lot of taxes in that time and right now she has to let the state pick up her medical bills and if you and Kyran were in charge, she would be dead because you don't want her taking some of that money back. So I am very personally offended by your positions.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> :rolleyes: I never said I wasn't paying taxes, I like every other person who buys anything in america is paying taxes... there is no choice not to pay taxes... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Mar 1, 2004, 03:25 pm	#107 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	OK - you can drive on the roads, then ;-) "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 1, 2004, 03:28 pm	#108 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	She never feels she's living off of the blood, sweat, and tears of others. She doesn't live off the government, one. Two, the health care she receives is her own tax dollars coming back to her, in her eyes and mine. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 1, 2004, 03:31 pm	#109 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	Sorry - this wasn't meant to be two posts. the point was not an appeal to emotion. The point was the recipients of some of the "social programs" are not all parasites. You may disagree but I don't think someone who paid so much into the system for so long and then took health care when needed is a parasite. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 1, 2004, 05:23 pm	#110 (permalink) (top)
pamiamiam Sedimentary Rock Posts: 3	I'm disabled by poor health, living on $500/mo and Medicaid. I have this computer from better days when I worked and went to school 70-80 hours a week until I got my PhD. Now I can't practice my profession after all and depend on that small social security $$ for the rest of my life. I hold my breath every time politicians, especially Bush, talk about Medicare, Soc.Sec., budget, "discretionary spending"(all social programs--everything but defense). I feel myself slipping into poverty, hopelessness as everything I have wears out, breaks, etc. I feel poor.

Mar 1, 2004, 06:41 pm	#111 (permalink) (top)
OdieWon Sedimentary Rock Location: South Dakota Posts: 10	WELL, In the last year we have seen 2 or 3 months where if we hadn't had some friends, and family looking out for us, we could have been homeless. I'd say we were "teetering". There was some meals of beans and rice (not just because that's our favorite food) because that's all that can be had for a family of 5 on $2

Mar 1, 2004, 09:18 pm	#112 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by She never feels she's living off of the blood, sweat, and tears of others. She doesn't live off the government, one. Two, the health care she receives is her own tax dollars coming back to her, in her eyes and mine.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Well not everyone takes responsibility for their actions, and that is a shame. Out of curiosity, has your mother taken, or would she take, a greater dollar amount than was paid in, including all of these "services" that you say we are somehow obligated to pay for? If she has taken any amount over the exact dollar amount she paid in, then youy have even less ground upon which to claim that she is not living off of the slavery of others. Also, out of the normal courtesy of intellectual discussions, would you care to address the other points I made, any one of which completely6 defeats the taxation is justified presumption?

Mar 2, 2004, 04:08 am	#113 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	Not really. Especially since I think it takes a sick individual not to want to have services like public hospitals. And you are still not understanding. My mother is not "living off" anyone - she receives health care. You think she deserves death and Kyran thinks she deserves imprisonment for this. There are all kinds of countries who do things differently - all take from one place to give in another in some manner. Taxation is ours. Do you have a model of something different that works better? In real life, not theory. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 2, 2004, 04:10 am	#114 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	BTW, I personally paid out more taxes last year than my mother has used thus far. I anticipate that I will keep outpacing her expenses, so we are not stealing from you right now. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 2, 2004, 12:56 pm	#115 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Also, out of the normal courtesy of intellectual discussions, would you care to address the other points I made, any one of which completely6 defeats the taxation is justified presumption? <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Mia's response: </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Not really. Especially since I think it takes a sick individual not to want to have services like public hospitals. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I am all for public hospitals. I am pointing out that GOVERNMENT hospitals are run on theft, violence, and coercion. Nice strawman and appeal to emotion though. So why not address the points made? After all this is a cornerstone of civil discussion? </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by And you are still not understanding. My mother is not "living off" anyone - she receives health care. You think she deserves death and Kyran thinks she deserves imprisonment for this. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I understand perfectly, which if of course what you are taking offense to. I have not said that she deserves death, this is your strawman. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by BTW, I personally paid out more taxes last year than my mother has used thus far. I anticipate that I will keep outpacing her expenses, so we are not stealing from you right now.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Ah... but according to you, you owe all of that money to the state and willingly give it to the state, not to your mother. So in fact you are reaping the rewards of theft. I notice that you did not address the question yet again, but instead avoided it with this red herring. Can we therefore assume that in fact your mother has taken far more than was taken from her?

Mar 2, 2004, 05:27 pm	#116 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	Obviously I did answer your question. If my personal taxes have covered her thus far, then she hasn't even gotten back what she paid in all the years she worked. I never said I "owe" all this money to the state - I said I don't disagree with the state taking this money that is partially used in things like public hospitals and health care for those who can't afford it. And since my mother did her part and paid into the system all those years she is no theif for taking advantage of the services provided from it. This argument really belongs on the other topic board, but things have gotten intermingled. You can't understand perfectly if you insists she "lives off" everyone else. In the sense of her bills to live being paid by the state. Unless you characterize health care as "living off" in which case it's not so much taking offense as feeling you are exaggerating on purpose to make her out to be the theif you feel she is. I shouldn't have brought up my mother, because well before she ever needed one I supported part of my tax dollars going to those who need these services. The point in bringing her up was an example of someone who pays far more into the system than they take and therefore are not theives. It doesn't work perfectly, but this is how it's meant to work. Even welfare is supposed to be a temporary boost to get the person back on their feet and in a tax-paying job again. There may be a better way to handle these matters rather than the current one. But with the way it is currently set up, I am no theif if I ever need to use one of the services currently being supported by my tax dollars. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 2, 2004, 05:53 pm	#117 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	So if a mugger gives you money you are not taking stolen funds... somehow this does not make any sense.. You still have not addressed the question for you continue to avoid the fact that you have claimed that the money stolen from honest innocent people is used for all of the bureaucratic nonsense, but then you argue as if it were a savings account from which you can draw upon claiming that it is your money. So in the first instance you claim that the money is the state's but in the second you claim it is your own. It is to this double standard that I have directed attention. If you stick to your first claim, then your mother is currently a theif. If you stick to your second then the takings are theft. You have not addressed this contradiction in your positions. I agree that you should not have brought up your mother, for two reasons. It was used as an appeal to emotion which has no place in a reasoned discussion, and also because it failed to demonstrate what you hoped to demonstrate.

Mar 2, 2004, 06:27 pm	#118 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	No, I realize you think you know everything, but that is not true. As I already stated, I wanted to use a real-world example of something rather than a hypothetical. I thought of saying "I know a woman..." and then thought why not be honest? It was wrong to bring her up personally but not for the reasons you stated. No one here knows me to give more of a crap about my mother than any other random person, so it was not an appeal to emotion. I'm sorry the true reason is not good enough for you but I can't do more than tell it. As to your other (crap) argument. I do not have to be boxed in to either of your theories. I believe (and this is my opinion, to which I am entitled) that it is good for society to tax to take care of certain things for us. I believe that health care for those who can't afford it is one of those things. I don't think my mother was stolen from when she paid her taxes, and I don't think she is stealing when she uses the services her tax dollars went in to pay for. It's quite simple. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 2, 2004, 06:29 pm	#119 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	There may be a better way to handle these matters rather than the current one. But with the way it is currently set up, I am no theif if I ever need to use one of the services currently being supported by my tax dollars. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 2, 2004, 07:51 pm	#120 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by No, I realize you think you know everything, but that is not true. As I already stated, I wanted to use a real-world example of something rather than a hypothetical. I thought of saying "I know a woman..." and then thought why not be honest?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Perhaps you should read the etiquette at least once. Ad hominem attacks are specifically addressed. I make no claims of omniscience, nor has anything I have saion any such assumptions. There is no place for persconal attacks. What you call crap theories are simply facts about the world. When the rational person discovers that their beliefs and the world are conflicting, they alter the belief. The irrational person denies reality, or in this case, calls it "crap." Finally, and yet again let me address your appeal to emotion with regard to health care. I agree that charity can be good, contrary to your implications I have not taken the position against the ill. I have however pointed out that violence, coercion, threats, and theft are not justified, nor good things. I have also already pointed out that peaceful, voluntary, and EFFECTIVE solutions are certainly welcome and good.