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Mia · Feb 28, 2004, 12:01 am

There was a book released recently on the traps of the working poor. It goes something like this: poor housing causes an asthma attack in a child necessitating a trip to the ER that the mother cannot afford. The bad credit rating that ensues restricts her from getting a good interest rate on a good car. she then buys an unreliable one at a terrible rate, putting in danger her ability to get to work on time every day, keeping her from promotions and better jogs, causing her to only be able to afford poor housing which makes her child's health condition worse.

It is somewhat of a prison and it's not as easy for everyone to get out as others. Someone who is attractive and bright, for instance, will have a better chance than someone who's not. So while there is a lot of choice involved, it's not all.

For many situations, it takes a superhuman will and a lot of luck to get out.

Packratt · Feb 28, 2004, 12:09 am

I've already attempted to explain that, Mia. I hope you have more luck than I apparently had.

Though, I don't think most of the people hear want to understand, let alone have the experience that would grant them the capacity to care.

Mia · Feb 28, 2004, 12:17 am

In large part, I believe in the choice concept. But there are way too many examples of those who do everything they can and cannot catch a break.

And so many who would have never made it without the help of someone. Not eveyone has the same choices offered to pick the right ones.

Packratt · Feb 28, 2004, 12:29 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mia,)
In large part, I believe in the choice concept. But there are way too many examples of those who do everything they can and cannot catch a break.

And so many who would have never made it without the help of someone. Not eveyone has the same choices offered to pick the right ones.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

There are always those who take their ideation to the extremes where reason no longer reaches them. The randians here, for example, who believe that there are no accidents and thus no victims, that even the murdered person chooses to be murdered by choosing to walk on the wrong side of the street, thus absolving the murderer of any crime.

I do also believe that there are choices and possibilities, but not for all under the present conditions in which we currently live. Thus it is that not everyone can make sustainable amounts of income by going into business for themselves as some maintain. And thus it is that a job in and of itself is not necessarily sufficient to meet the needs of that worker.

Indeed, there are ways out of poverty for some, even I myself have given my own example of my fight to keep my family from that position in life that I once held, that of a poverty so deep that I had nothing but the clothes on my body and had to beg for food. The climb is steep and it is next to impossible not to slide back down into the pit, but that climb would never have been possible without the help of others, even though I might have prefered to rely on none because I thought I could trust none.

Poverty is something most here do not understand, let alone believe exists outside their soul-smothering suburban walls.

Mia · Feb 28, 2004, 12:41 am

They also forget that if everyone took full advantage of the capitalist system, there would be no one to serve them in restraunts or pick up their trash.

Feb 28, 2004, 10:19 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
They also forget that if everyone took full advantage of the capitalist system, there would be no one to serve them in restraunts or pick up their trash.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

How do you figure? Let us assume that something along the lines of this strange prediction began to come true. Okay so in this hypothetical scenario, the number of wait staff and garbage collectors deecreases (presumably because no one wants these jobs??) This means that the demand for these services increases. When the demand increases, the price people are willing to pay for these services goes up. With the increase in salary comes a greater number of individuals who are more than willing to take these jobs.

Do not forget that there is always a new supply of willing individuals entering into the workforce every single day.

Feb 28, 2004, 10:22 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
I do also believe that there are choices and possibilities, but not for all under the present conditions in which we currently live. Thus it is that not everyone can make sustainable amounts of income by going into business for themselves as some maintain.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

This would be a very difficult case to make. But given that you clearly believe it nonetheless, could you try to make the case that this could possibly be true?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Poverty is something most here do not understand, let alone believe exists outside their soul-smothering suburban walls.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Perhaps, fortunately I am not one of those. I have walked in those shoes myself and in fact until this year I did not earn enough to be considered to be out of poverty.

Mia · Feb 28, 2004, 01:53 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Lightbearer,)

How do you figure? Let us assume that something along the lines of this strange prediction began to come true. Okay so in this hypothetical scenario, the number of wait staff and garbage collectors deecreases (presumably because no one wants these jobs??) This means that the demand for these services increases. When the demand increases, the price people are willing to pay for these services goes up. With the increase in salary comes a greater number of individuals who are more than willing to take these jobs.

Do not forget that there is always a new supply of willing individuals entering into the workforce every single day.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Not true - we then let workers from Mexico come in to fill the jobs at the same low wage.

There will always be an underclass, I feel they should make enough to live decently and have heathcare. Even if you don't give a crap about them, you need them.

Feb 28, 2004, 03:15 pm

LOL! Look to the living conditions of the poorest over the last 30 years.. they have what were luxuries for the richest of the rich 30 years ago.. and if you go back 100 years the progress is even more amazing.

Do you want to argue that those immigrant workers are not improving their situations? Also how do you reconcile this with the previous claim that there would be no one to do the jobs that were not the most enjoyable?

Mia · Feb 28, 2004, 08:15 pm

So I tangled myself up? Well, if we go with your logic, and all Americans move up the chain, and we keep bringing in immigrants to be the underclass, does this work the way we'd like it to? At this point I am not arguing, I am exploring because I don't claim to have "the answer".

Feb 29, 2004, 01:19 am

First I never claimed that all Americans always move up, people change make different choices. However as a trend, the younger generations take less glamourous jobs and less desireable jobs in order to get experience. Others who are also trying to improve their situation also take such jobs as they pay far higher than other alternatives available to them. In all such cases everyone benefits, most of all what you are dubbing "the underclass."

Do I have a problem with things working in this way? Not at all. Can you suggest an alternative?

Mia · Feb 29, 2004, 04:09 am

It's not that - I just think they should get a wage that allows them to live decently and have health care, that is all.

Right now, those without insurance can get care from state facilities based on a sliding scale on their income. Kyran thinks they shouldn't get this care paid for with our tax dollars and I disagree.

My point is that even if you don't care about these people we need them to fill certain jobs and we need them to get health care so they can show up to do them.

I think it's wrong to say if they want a better lot in life they should make one. SOMEONE has to take THAT lot in life in this society and I want them to have health care.

Feb 29, 2004, 03:51 pm

Okay, let me ask you a question then. Do you prefer coercion and violence or do you prefer voluntary peaceful actions?

Mia · Feb 29, 2004, 08:03 pm

Coercion and violence if that's what it takes to get people to share.

Feb 29, 2004, 10:08 pm

Mia,

Two points. First, I cannot beleive that anyone would actually hold such a position, much less admit to it to anyone. Second, there is no necessity for violence and coercion, which makes the advocating of it even more dispicable.

Give me peace, prosperity, and cooperation any day. Somehow rape, murder, theft, imprisonment, torture and the like just do not appeal to me.

Mia · Feb 29, 2004, 10:11 pm

I was not being serious. I didn't understand what your question had to do with the poor receiving health care.

Impenitent · Mar 1, 2004, 02:23 am

why do you think people pay taxes?

threat of jail? why that's COERCION

Mathieu · Mar 1, 2004, 02:25 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
why do you think people pay taxes?

threat of jail? why that's COERCION<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Correction, That's why YOU pay tax. Let people have thier own opinion.

Impenitent · Mar 1, 2004, 03:00 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
why do you think people pay taxes?

threat of jail? why that's COERCION<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Correction, That's why YOU pay tax. Let people have thier own opinion.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Correction, if you break the law you go to jail... paying taxes is not a matter of opinion or charity... it is the law... break the law, go to jail... if you think taxes are charity, you are sadly mistaken

Mathieu · Mar 1, 2004, 03:10 am

I pay tax cause I agree to pay them , for various reason .We all have different motivation to pay taxes. I reiterate. That is why YOU pay tax.

If you don't want to pay tax, you can leave your country as far as I know.

View Poll Results: Are you poor?
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I only have the absolute necessities: shelter, bread, and water.	4	7.14%
I'm wealthier than most of the world. I have a roof, food, computer, electricity, and clothes.	33	58.93%
I'm rich enough to afford college. I even go to college.	17	30.36%
I'm so rich Mr Bill Gates calls me "Sir".	1	1.79%
Voters: 56. You may not vote

Feb 28, 2004, 12:01 am	#81 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	There was a book released recently on the traps of the working poor. It goes something like this: poor housing causes an asthma attack in a child necessitating a trip to the ER that the mother cannot afford. The bad credit rating that ensues restricts her from getting a good interest rate on a good car. she then buys an unreliable one at a terrible rate, putting in danger her ability to get to work on time every day, keeping her from promotions and better jogs, causing her to only be able to afford poor housing which makes her child's health condition worse. It is somewhat of a prison and it's not as easy for everyone to get out as others. Someone who is attractive and bright, for instance, will have a better chance than someone who's not. So while there is a lot of choice involved, it's not all. For many situations, it takes a superhuman will and a lot of luck to get out. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Feb 28, 2004, 12:09 am	#82 (permalink) (top)
Packratt Molten Ash Location: Crimetown USA Posts: 130	I've already attempted to explain that, Mia. I hope you have more luck than I apparently had. Though, I don't think most of the people hear want to understand, let alone have the experience that would grant them the capacity to care. "...the worker's liberty... is only a theoretical freedom, lacking any means for its possible realisation, and consequently it is only a fictitious liberty, an utter falsehood. -Bakunin

Feb 28, 2004, 12:17 am	#83 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	In large part, I believe in the choice concept. But there are way too many examples of those who do everything they can and cannot catch a break. And so many who would have never made it without the help of someone. Not eveyone has the same choices offered to pick the right ones. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Feb 28, 2004, 12:29 am	#84 (permalink) (top)
Packratt Molten Ash Location: Crimetown USA Posts: 130	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mia,) In large part, I believe in the choice concept. But there are way too many examples of those who do everything they can and cannot catch a break. And so many who would have never made it without the help of someone. Not eveyone has the same choices offered to pick the right ones.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> There are always those who take their ideation to the extremes where reason no longer reaches them. The randians here, for example, who believe that there are no accidents and thus no victims, that even the murdered person chooses to be murdered by choosing to walk on the wrong side of the street, thus absolving the murderer of any crime. I do also believe that there are choices and possibilities, but not for all under the present conditions in which we currently live. Thus it is that not everyone can make sustainable amounts of income by going into business for themselves as some maintain. And thus it is that a job in and of itself is not necessarily sufficient to meet the needs of that worker. Indeed, there are ways out of poverty for some, even I myself have given my own example of my fight to keep my family from that position in life that I once held, that of a poverty so deep that I had nothing but the clothes on my body and had to beg for food. The climb is steep and it is next to impossible not to slide back down into the pit, but that climb would never have been possible without the help of others, even though I might have prefered to rely on none because I thought I could trust none. Poverty is something most here do not understand, let alone believe exists outside their soul-smothering suburban walls. "...the worker's liberty... is only a theoretical freedom, lacking any means for its possible realisation, and consequently it is only a fictitious liberty, an utter falsehood. -Bakunin

Feb 28, 2004, 12:41 am	#85 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	They also forget that if everyone took full advantage of the capitalist system, there would be no one to serve them in restraunts or pick up their trash. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Feb 28, 2004, 10:19 am	#86 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by They also forget that if everyone took full advantage of the capitalist system, there would be no one to serve them in restraunts or pick up their trash.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> How do you figure? Let us assume that something along the lines of this strange prediction began to come true. Okay so in this hypothetical scenario, the number of wait staff and garbage collectors deecreases (presumably because no one wants these jobs??) This means that the demand for these services increases. When the demand increases, the price people are willing to pay for these services goes up. With the increase in salary comes a greater number of individuals who are more than willing to take these jobs. Do not forget that there is always a new supply of willing individuals entering into the workforce every single day.

Feb 28, 2004, 10:22 am	#87 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by I do also believe that there are choices and possibilities, but not for all under the present conditions in which we currently live. Thus it is that not everyone can make sustainable amounts of income by going into business for themselves as some maintain.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> This would be a very difficult case to make. But given that you clearly believe it nonetheless, could you try to make the case that this could possibly be true? </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Poverty is something most here do not understand, let alone believe exists outside their soul-smothering suburban walls.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Perhaps, fortunately I am not one of those. I have walked in those shoes myself and in fact until this year I did not earn enough to be considered to be out of poverty.

Feb 28, 2004, 01:53 pm	#88 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Lightbearer,) How do you figure? Let us assume that something along the lines of this strange prediction began to come true. Okay so in this hypothetical scenario, the number of wait staff and garbage collectors deecreases (presumably because no one wants these jobs??) This means that the demand for these services increases. When the demand increases, the price people are willing to pay for these services goes up. With the increase in salary comes a greater number of individuals who are more than willing to take these jobs. Do not forget that there is always a new supply of willing individuals entering into the workforce every single day.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Not true - we then let workers from Mexico come in to fill the jobs at the same low wage. There will always be an underclass, I feel they should make enough to live decently and have heathcare. Even if you don't give a crap about them, you need them. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Feb 28, 2004, 03:15 pm	#89 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	LOL! Look to the living conditions of the poorest over the last 30 years.. they have what were luxuries for the richest of the rich 30 years ago.. and if you go back 100 years the progress is even more amazing. Do you want to argue that those immigrant workers are not improving their situations? Also how do you reconcile this with the previous claim that there would be no one to do the jobs that were not the most enjoyable?

Feb 28, 2004, 08:15 pm	#90 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	So I tangled myself up? Well, if we go with your logic, and all Americans move up the chain, and we keep bringing in immigrants to be the underclass, does this work the way we'd like it to? At this point I am not arguing, I am exploring because I don't claim to have "the answer". "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Feb 29, 2004, 01:19 am	#91 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	First I never claimed that all Americans always move up, people change make different choices. However as a trend, the younger generations take less glamourous jobs and less desireable jobs in order to get experience. Others who are also trying to improve their situation also take such jobs as they pay far higher than other alternatives available to them. In all such cases everyone benefits, most of all what you are dubbing "the underclass." Do I have a problem with things working in this way? Not at all. Can you suggest an alternative?

Feb 29, 2004, 04:09 am	#92 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	It's not that - I just think they should get a wage that allows them to live decently and have health care, that is all. Right now, those without insurance can get care from state facilities based on a sliding scale on their income. Kyran thinks they shouldn't get this care paid for with our tax dollars and I disagree. My point is that even if you don't care about these people we need them to fill certain jobs and we need them to get health care so they can show up to do them. I think it's wrong to say if they want a better lot in life they should make one. SOMEONE has to take THAT lot in life in this society and I want them to have health care. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Feb 29, 2004, 03:51 pm	#93 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	Okay, let me ask you a question then. Do you prefer coercion and violence or do you prefer voluntary peaceful actions?

Feb 29, 2004, 08:03 pm	#94 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	Coercion and violence if that's what it takes to get people to share. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Feb 29, 2004, 10:08 pm	#95 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	Mia, Two points. First, I cannot beleive that anyone would actually hold such a position, much less admit to it to anyone. Second, there is no necessity for violence and coercion, which makes the advocating of it even more dispicable. Give me peace, prosperity, and cooperation any day. Somehow rape, murder, theft, imprisonment, torture and the like just do not appeal to me.

Feb 29, 2004, 10:11 pm	#96 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	I was not being serious. I didn't understand what your question had to do with the poor receiving health care. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 1, 2004, 02:23 am	#97 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	why do you think people pay taxes? threat of jail? why that's COERCION "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Mar 1, 2004, 02:25 am	#98 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) why do you think people pay taxes? threat of jail? why that's COERCION<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Correction, That's why YOU pay tax. Let people have thier own opinion.

Mar 1, 2004, 03:00 am	#99 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mathieu,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) why do you think people pay taxes? threat of jail? why that's COERCION<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Correction, That's why YOU pay tax. Let people have thier own opinion.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Correction, if you break the law you go to jail... paying taxes is not a matter of opinion or charity... it is the law... break the law, go to jail... if you think taxes are charity, you are sadly mistaken "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Mar 1, 2004, 03:10 am	#100 (permalink) (top)
Mathieu Igneous Magma Location: Montreal Posts: 216	I pay tax cause I agree to pay them , for various reason .We all have different motivation to pay taxes. I reiterate. That is why YOU pay tax. If you don't want to pay tax, you can leave your country as far as I know.