Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

RebelWithanAK · Feb 14, 2004, 11:16 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (AnonT,)
Keep in mind that if we lived in a purely capitalistic society, the government wouldn't be taking 20-30% of your money before you even had the check in your hand, nor would they be taking an extra 15-20% of your money after the check was in your hand.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>I don't get paid enough to be taxed. Next year, my tax rebate will be everything that was automatically taken out of my income as taxes. I still can't afford the $250 to see a doctor about my ear, much less whatever he would prescribe for it. My problem is desiring to further my education next year (which would reinstate my health care) and thus not more actively going after Medicaid, which by all reasons should be free to me. I'm walking on thin ice right now for the purpose of scrounging up money for the ludicrous tuition costs of the school I attended in the face of diminishing federal loans.

kharmajunkie · Feb 14, 2004, 11:46 pm

I ended up homeless for a while; it was about five years ago. I taught myself how to use a computer at the univ campus library and it helped me get my own place again. Although I still consider myself poor, I'm single and don't own a car so that frees up a lot of cash.
Like someone said earlier in the thread, it's just your perspective and what you consider important.

Packratt · Feb 15, 2004, 12:28 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,)
Well, where I am you can't get a library card without a permanent address and photo ID. But I agree, having an online poll asking about wealth will give you a pretty slanted view on reality.

However, I will say this: I'm not in college this year because I couldn't afford tuition, even with financial aid. Since I'm not in school, I'm not eligible for my health care plan, and since I've no job that I was 'laid off' from, having spent last year in college, I can't get unemployment and thus Medicaid. And because of this job market, I'm working three temp jobs just to keep myself fed, clothed and internetted (two of the jobs are computer-related), but because I can't adequately explain how much I really make (because it fluctuates radically month to month) I still can't get Medicaid. I just went to the emergency room for an ear infection. God bless capitalism.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Yes, I am aware that many libraries do place such restrictions on who can use their systems, but there are some where you can skirt that requirement by various means. There are some other ways that one could also gain internet access even when homeless, but it's still highly unlikely that anyone who is currently homeless would post here, let alone to any only poll asking about poverty levels.

(by the way, was anyone aware that current homeless estimates indicate that families are now at an equal ratio of the homeless as are the "chronic" homeless?)

Anyway, I know what you mean being that we are currently caught in the middle, earnings being just above the cutoff for most assistance programs and too low to pay the bills, as I said, we barely avoided homelessness this month. I have a wife with two kids that I have to support by my own single income, and when I lost my last job when the company went bankrupt... Well, let's just say we don't pull in enough to eat and pay rent.

As for medical care, that's another subject entirely, my wife has a treatable illness that we cannot get treatment for because she lacks health insurance, the ER turns us away because the condition isn't life threatening YET, but is a condition that when it becomes life threatening, treatment would be moot.

Yes, poverty is a matter of perspective, but suffering is not... and I've been struggling to find a way to ease my wife's suffering despite our relative poverty.

Packratt · Feb 15, 2004, 12:34 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (kharmajunkie,)
I ended up homeless for a while; it was about five years ago. I taught myself how to use a computer at the univ campus library and it helped me get my own place again. Although I still consider myself poor, I'm single and don't own a car so that frees up a lot of cash.
Like someone said earlier in the thread, it's just your perspective and what you consider important.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Yes, like I told AK, there are ways to gain access to the internet when you're homeless or poor. Ranging from libraries and campuses to hooking up in squats by various means.

I was homeless for years starting when I was 15, it's not a life to envy, but can be tolerable when you're single, smart, strong, and unhampered by dependency or illness. There were days I slept in the rain and snow, that I went hungry and thirsty, days I was very sick from exposure. It wasn't something anyone should live through, but it taught me a hell of a lot that has come in handy since.

Yep, perspective.

**Pooeypants** · Feb 15, 2004, 07:02 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,)
I don't get paid enough to be taxed. Next year, my tax rebate will be everything that was automatically taken out of my income as taxes. I still can't afford the $250 to see a doctor about my ear, much less whatever he would prescribe for it. My problem is desiring to further my education next year (which would reinstate my health care) and thus not more actively going after Medicaid, which by all reasons should be free to me. I'm walking on thin ice right now for the purpose of scrounging up money for the ludicrous tuition costs of the school I attended in the face of diminishing federal loans.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>
Sorry mate, I'm not familiar with your flag, don't you have an NHS over there?

AnonT · Feb 15, 2004, 07:43 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Toussaint,)
They government has no right to do this, yet, we let them do it anyway. The problem is that we keep on voting for these criminals because they tell us that we'll get more of a piece of the booty (taxes).<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Toussaint,)
Does not a system in which your rights to that which you earn are protected sound much better than this? That is what the government was formed for, after all...<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

It does, it does. Why do you think I voted Libertarian and whine so much about taxes?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
How about Social Security reform? From what you've said you may pay more in Social Security payroll taxes than in income taxes. Is this the case?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Actually, I pay more in income taxes. Social Security takes about 8% of each check, federal income tax takes about 10%, and state income tax takes about 2%. Sure, I get some of that money back as a tax return, but not much, and that money would do me a whole lot more good month-to-month when I need to pay the rent than it does a year later as a lump sum that most people end up spending within a week.

However, the one problem I see with social security reform right now is that we have millions of people who've spent their entire working lives paying for it, and expect (and deserve) something back. The problem is, the government has misused and abused their money to the point that it can't pay them back (certainly not anything comparable to what they paid in). If we cut spending in other areas by enough (like, say, the war on drugs, foreign aid, welfare, or most of the other things you listed), we can put the money that politicians "borrowed" from social security back into it. Once we've put that money back in, we can better afford to either make it optional or experiment with privatization, which can eventually lead to a safe elimination of social security. If you reform or eliminate it now, you're basically saying "up yours!" to a lot of hard working Americans. When we reform social security (and there better damn well be a when), we have to do it in a way that doesn't screw anyone over.

Anyway, I think the two of us agree on more than we disagree, so I'm going to move on.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK)
I don't get paid enough to be taxed. Next year, my tax rebate will be everything that was automatically taken out of my income as taxes. I still can't afford the $250 to see a doctor about my ear, much less whatever he would prescribe for it. My problem is desiring to further my education next year (which would reinstate my health care) and thus not more actively going after Medicaid, which by all reasons should be free to me. I'm walking on thin ice right now for the purpose of scrounging up money for the ludicrous tuition costs of the school I attended in the face of diminishing federal loans. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Sorry, I probably should have noticed from your flag that you're not an American. Here, everyone who has any money pays some of it to taxes. Even if you're not earning money, and therefore not paying income taxes, you still have sales tax anytime you buy something, property taxes if you have a roof over your head, gas taxes if you drive, and a hojillion other taxes on practically everything imaginable. Not to mention that many of the regulations on the economy end up driving production costs up (and therefore driving prices up) while making nearly no impact on worker or consumer safety, meaning that buying just about anything, including food, is more expensive. So, life is harder for everyone because of these things.

Anyway, I'm going to make a recommendation, and you may or may not choose to follow it (hey, it's your life): get a job. I know it's hard to work and go to school, but I work 40 hours a week, go to school full time, and still pull off Bs. If your tuition is too expensive, see about transferring to a college with lower expenses, so your loans will cover more. Neither of these are a perfect solution, but it's better than starving and it's better than dying of an ear infection.

syracusa · Feb 15, 2004, 12:34 pm

No...this poll is completely useless because the sample is extremely non-representative of the larger population.

Theretically, I am middle class (with clothes, computer and all that) but that's mainly because I am married.
Lacking any sort of health insurance and being screwed left and right by all kinds of "business people" and "entrepreneurs" (from doctors, insurance companies, builders (for the house), contractors - simply because the laws are skewed in their favor - that makes me feel darn poor.

I teach college doing the same thing a University professor does - but I get paid a miserable amount wich is then partially taken away by "University fees".

Theoretically I may be middle class - but in reality I feel very poor.
I continue to believe that beyond the level of physical survival(where you literally struggle to stay alive), relative poverty matters MORE (and makes you feel more miserable) than absolute poverty.

RebelWithanAK · Feb 15, 2004, 11:39 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (AnonT,)
Sorry, I probably should have noticed from your flag that you're not an American. Here, everyone who has any money pays some of it to taxes. Even if you're not earning money, and therefore not paying income taxes, you still have sales tax anytime you buy something, property taxes if you have a roof over your head, gas taxes if you drive, and a hojillion other taxes on practically everything imaginable. Not to mention that many of the regulations on the economy end up driving production costs up (and therefore driving prices up) while making nearly no impact on worker or consumer safety, meaning that buying just about anything, including food, is more expensive. So, life is harder for everyone because of these things.

Anyway, I'm going to make a recommendation, and you may or may not choose to follow it (hey, it's your life): get a job. I know it's hard to work and go to school, but I work 40 hours a week, go to school full time, and still pull off Bs. If your tuition is too expensive, see about transferring to a college with lower expenses, so your loans will cover more. Neither of these are a perfect solution, but it's better than starving and it's better than dying of an ear infection.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>Actually, if you'd taken a closer look, you'd find out that I am a New Yorker. The flag is because of the people in my neighborhood. However, I don't drive (so no gas tax), I rent (so I don't pay property tax), and food is not taxed. Taxes are not what bother me. Bureaucracy is. Making it easier for me to get on Medicaid would be much appreciated, but the city is strapped for funds because upstaters don't give us our fair share of federal block grants, and such problems cause difficulties in the policies of the programs. I will say that it is because of rent stabilization that I even have a roof over my head! But it is because of the lack of federal funds that the economy is taking so damned long to regain itself, and the city is not gaining jobs at any rate conceivably near "growth". Which brings me to my next point:

--sarcasm mode--
You mean all I had to do was find a job?! Really? Wow! I was WONDERING where I was going wrong!
--sarcasm mode--

I told you I was working three temp jobs. The job market's terrible! And there's nothing those tax cuts did about them! I want my government fucking subsidy!

the_anawim · Feb 16, 2004, 12:02 am

I'm certainly not poor--but I have tremendous respect for the poor, and I am trying to cut down on non-essentials . . . slowly but surely. Are any of you aware of any groups living in voluntary poverty? I'm a big fan of the Catholic Worker.

Peace,
Scott

Feb 16, 2004, 12:26 am

I am not aware of any groups but I have known individuals who have made this choice. I myself made this choice many years ago.

RebelWithanAK · Feb 16, 2004, 01:27 am

It's funny how many people resign themselves to voluntary poverty when offered no other choice.

Packratt · Feb 16, 2004, 01:41 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,)
It's funny how many people resign themselves to voluntary poverty when offered no other choice. <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Well, for what it's worth, I don't resign myself to poverty even though it's a state of being that I am all too familiar with and I know how to survive it. I do what I can to climb out of the pits of despair, just as I have done before for brief periods of time. Situations do happen that are beyond our control though, and when they happen you have no choice but to keep fighting, whether it's for mere survival or whatever other option there is at any given moment.

It's not resignation, it's acceptance of the factual reality at that point in time, counting the other intangible things you might still have of value that others cannot rob from you, and moving on to change that desperate situation or survive it when you really are offered no other choice.

Like I mentioned before, there is no glory in poverty when it is not a planned choice, especially when innocent children are forced to endure it. But, as I said, there is good and bad wrapped up in the same package, and you usually have to take them both in the same huge and hard to swallow horse pill.

Colleptic · Feb 16, 2004, 02:18 am

[color=darkred]Poor.[/color] I do not like that word; my life taught me there is no such thing.

I can say, when my parents were "together" at the beginnings of my life, I was in a 100,000 to 300,000ish a year household. Eventually, in a house with something like 5 bedrooms, couple (4?) full bathrooms, disco barroom, full sized heated pool, sauna etc., etc., etc., the mother and the kids had to run from a tyrant and immediately to welfare. This was in the 80’s when a rich man, with enough power, could get around paying child support.

Nonetheless, I first experienced skipping meals by choice, because I was a little rich kid and did not like the food, to skipping meals just because they were not there. Fortunately my Mother got herself educated, which put us back above the poverty level (slightly). But a single mother raising two children, just over the poverty level was tough. She could never afford to buy us a house, herself a new car etc.

I managed to go to University through government grants. With that done, I am no better off. In order to become one of the two things I want to become, it requires either a Masters or a focussed program, which I cannot afford. (About 50,000...ya right eh?). So, I did manage to go to University...even though I could not afford it, but I still cannot afford to do things in which I should be doing, like making my physical art, or film/video work to keep my skills up for a masters or focus.

So as I type, I sit here working a job that just gets me by, while I try and find every piece of funding I can to afford to finish what I started. I did vote for, “I'm wealthier than most of the world. I have a roof, food, computer, electricity, and clothes”, because that is true, but what does that prove?

[color=blue]Am I poor, was I poor, was I rich, am I rich? It depends on who is the JUDGE; we are all poorer than the other man, the ego man.[/color]

Feb 16, 2004, 04:29 pm

I notice "poor" and "poverty" being tossed about almost as synonyms, and am left wondering what points are actually being made. Those with little income but great tracts of property or vast collections can in fact be living below poverty, as poverty is a measure of income, not wealth. I have also noted that many use the possession of some specific items as a sign of being middle class, but would anyone argue that one who makes under $10k in the US is middle class, regardless of whether they have made the choices that allow them to have some of these items, such as a personal computer?

RebelWithanAK · Feb 16, 2004, 05:52 pm

You are mistaken, Lightbearer; while people tend to associate income with wealth levels, assets are important. Somebody sitting on a dozen acres of profitable real estate is not poor. But if you're going to do that, you have to realize, also, that poverty levels are also determined by the cost of living - making $22,000 in New York does not necessarily mean more than making $17,000 in Ohio.

damnrad · Feb 16, 2004, 06:05 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)
Just curious, anyone here really poor?

I don't mean "middle class poor". Thats when you can afford luxuries such as computers, televisions, a roof, and a microwave.

I'm talking about real poverty - malnutrition, begging, hunger, living in a dumpster.

Its just that everyone in here seems to say they're pretty poor, I expect at least 50% to be living in poverty.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

There are a few other gradations between those last two. And they're important, because many in them (including myself) would have been much poorer were it not for some mid-20th-Century reforms. And some of those reforms have been undone, and others are still being rapidly undone by the Bushistas. It's not who's poor now -- it's who will be if the situation doesn't change.

Feb 16, 2004, 06:32 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
You are mistaken, Lightbearer; while people tend to associate income with wealth levels, assets are important. Somebody sitting on a dozen acres of profitable real estate is not poor. But if you're going to do that, you have to realize, also, that poverty levels are also determined by the cost of living - making $22,000 in New York does not necessarily mean more than making $17,000 in Ohio.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Um.. so how do you believe I was mistaken? Nothing you stated contradicts that which I stated. In fact I agree with all that you said, except the first statement. Assets are indeed important, that was clear from my example as to confusing income with assets. I made the distinction between judging on income and judging upon wealth, and noted how that relates to the two terms "poverty" and "poor"

I believe that Colleptic alluded to a similar point in the previous post. One can live a lifestyle with which he is happy and without wants, but have neither money nor vast income. Such a man is not poor, though he is not wealthy.

syracusa · Feb 16, 2004, 07:37 pm

Colleptic,

I am so sorry for the split of your parents and ...all respect to your mom for the efforts she made after that to take care of you.

I wish more of my students were aware of cases like yours when they ask "...but what's wrong with just wanting to marry a man who makes good money so I can be a homemaker and just raise my children?"

Uuughhhhhh....THIS???

castille · Feb 16, 2004, 09:37 pm

The reason for this poll is because most of you seem to (claim) you understand all poor people.

Also a question for the truely poor - are you actively learning on ways to improve your financial situation, or are you just working blindly at 4 jobs?

Feb 16, 2004, 09:44 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
The reason for this poll is because most of you seem to (claim) you understand all poor people.

Also a question for the truely poor - are you actively learning on ways to improve your financial situation, or are you just working blindly at 4 jobs?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Two issues:

1. How are you defining "poor?" Does it rely on an income amount? On possessions? Do the choices we each make in life matter with regard to this label?

2. What makes one think that those who fit this label of "poor" must be in a situation which they find unappealing? Do not assume that I am stating anything, including the notion that all who fit this as of yet unclear definition of "poor," are in that situation because they desire to be, but neither am I assuming that all those who fit this label of poor, are there for reasons other than their own choices.

View Poll Results: Are you poor?
	0	0%
	0	0%
I'm homeless.	1	1.79%
I only have the absolute necessities: shelter, bread, and water.	4	7.14%
I'm wealthier than most of the world. I have a roof, food, computer, electricity, and clothes.	33	58.93%
I'm rich enough to afford college. I even go to college.	17	30.36%
I'm so rich Mr Bill Gates calls me "Sir".	1	1.79%
Voters: 56. You may not vote

Feb 14, 2004, 11:16 pm	#21 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (AnonT,) Keep in mind that if we lived in a purely capitalistic society, the government wouldn't be taking 20-30% of your money before you even had the check in your hand, nor would they be taking an extra 15-20% of your money after the check was in your hand.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>I don't get paid enough to be taxed. Next year, my tax rebate will be everything that was automatically taken out of my income as taxes. I still can't afford the $250 to see a doctor about my ear, much less whatever he would prescribe for it. My problem is desiring to further my education next year (which would reinstate my health care) and thus not more actively going after Medicaid, which by all reasons should be free to me. I'm walking on thin ice right now for the purpose of scrounging up money for the ludicrous tuition costs of the school I attended in the face of diminishing federal loans. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Feb 14, 2004, 11:46 pm	#22 (permalink) (top)
kharmajunkie year of the monkey Location: Milwaukee, Wi Posts: 663	I ended up homeless for a while; it was about five years ago. I taught myself how to use a computer at the univ campus library and it helped me get my own place again. Although I still consider myself poor, I'm single and don't own a car so that frees up a lot of cash. Like someone said earlier in the thread, it's just your perspective and what you consider important. Sanity is the playground of the unimaginative. anonomous Words we say, never seem to live up to the ones inside our heads. Chris Cornell

Feb 15, 2004, 12:28 am	#23 (permalink) (top)
Packratt Molten Ash Location: Crimetown USA Posts: 130	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,) Well, where I am you can't get a library card without a permanent address and photo ID. But I agree, having an online poll asking about wealth will give you a pretty slanted view on reality. However, I will say this: I'm not in college this year because I couldn't afford tuition, even with financial aid. Since I'm not in school, I'm not eligible for my health care plan, and since I've no job that I was 'laid off' from, having spent last year in college, I can't get unemployment and thus Medicaid. And because of this job market, I'm working three temp jobs just to keep myself fed, clothed and internetted (two of the jobs are computer-related), but because I can't adequately explain how much I really make (because it fluctuates radically month to month) I still can't get Medicaid. I just went to the emergency room for an ear infection. God bless capitalism.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Yes, I am aware that many libraries do place such restrictions on who can use their systems, but there are some where you can skirt that requirement by various means. There are some other ways that one could also gain internet access even when homeless, but it's still highly unlikely that anyone who is currently homeless would post here, let alone to any only poll asking about poverty levels. (by the way, was anyone aware that current homeless estimates indicate that families are now at an equal ratio of the homeless as are the "chronic" homeless?) Anyway, I know what you mean being that we are currently caught in the middle, earnings being just above the cutoff for most assistance programs and too low to pay the bills, as I said, we barely avoided homelessness this month. I have a wife with two kids that I have to support by my own single income, and when I lost my last job when the company went bankrupt... Well, let's just say we don't pull in enough to eat and pay rent. As for medical care, that's another subject entirely, my wife has a treatable illness that we cannot get treatment for because she lacks health insurance, the ER turns us away because the condition isn't life threatening YET, but is a condition that when it becomes life threatening, treatment would be moot. Yes, poverty is a matter of perspective, but suffering is not... and I've been struggling to find a way to ease my wife's suffering despite our relative poverty. "...the worker's liberty... is only a theoretical freedom, lacking any means for its possible realisation, and consequently it is only a fictitious liberty, an utter falsehood. -Bakunin

Feb 15, 2004, 12:34 am	#24 (permalink) (top)
Packratt Molten Ash Location: Crimetown USA Posts: 130	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (kharmajunkie,) I ended up homeless for a while; it was about five years ago. I taught myself how to use a computer at the univ campus library and it helped me get my own place again. Although I still consider myself poor, I'm single and don't own a car so that frees up a lot of cash. Like someone said earlier in the thread, it's just your perspective and what you consider important.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Yes, like I told AK, there are ways to gain access to the internet when you're homeless or poor. Ranging from libraries and campuses to hooking up in squats by various means. I was homeless for years starting when I was 15, it's not a life to envy, but can be tolerable when you're single, smart, strong, and unhampered by dependency or illness. There were days I slept in the rain and snow, that I went hungry and thirsty, days I was very sick from exposure. It wasn't something anyone should live through, but it taught me a hell of a lot that has come in handy since. Yep, perspective. "...the worker's liberty... is only a theoretical freedom, lacking any means for its possible realisation, and consequently it is only a fictitious liberty, an utter falsehood. -Bakunin

Feb 15, 2004, 07:02 am	#25 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,609	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,) I don't get paid enough to be taxed. Next year, my tax rebate will be everything that was automatically taken out of my income as taxes. I still can't afford the $250 to see a doctor about my ear, much less whatever he would prescribe for it. My problem is desiring to further my education next year (which would reinstate my health care) and thus not more actively going after Medicaid, which by all reasons should be free to me. I'm walking on thin ice right now for the purpose of scrounging up money for the ludicrous tuition costs of the school I attended in the face of diminishing federal loans.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Sorry mate, I'm not familiar with your flag, don't you have an NHS over there? War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

Feb 15, 2004, 07:43 am	#26 (permalink) (top)
AnonT Molten Ash Location: Middle of nowhere, Nebraska Posts: 130	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Toussaint,) They government has no right to do this, yet, we let them do it anyway. The problem is that we keep on voting for these criminals because they tell us that we'll get more of a piece of the booty (taxes).<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Toussaint,) Does not a system in which your rights to that which you earn are protected sound much better than this? That is what the government was formed for, after all...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> It does, it does. Why do you think I voted Libertarian and whine so much about taxes? </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by How about Social Security reform? From what you've said you may pay more in Social Security payroll taxes than in income taxes. Is this the case?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Actually, I pay more in income taxes. Social Security takes about 8% of each check, federal income tax takes about 10%, and state income tax takes about 2%. Sure, I get some of that money back as a tax return, but not much, and that money would do me a whole lot more good month-to-month when I need to pay the rent than it does a year later as a lump sum that most people end up spending within a week. However, the one problem I see with social security reform right now is that we have millions of people who've spent their entire working lives paying for it, and expect (and deserve) something back. The problem is, the government has misused and abused their money to the point that it can't pay them back (certainly not anything comparable to what they paid in). If we cut spending in other areas by enough (like, say, the war on drugs, foreign aid, welfare, or most of the other things you listed), we can put the money that politicians "borrowed" from social security back into it. Once we've put that money back in, we can better afford to either make it optional or experiment with privatization, which can eventually lead to a safe elimination of social security. If you reform or eliminate it now, you're basically saying "up yours!" to a lot of hard working Americans. When we reform social security (and there better damn well be a when), we have to do it in a way that doesn't screw anyone over. Anyway, I think the two of us agree on more than we disagree, so I'm going to move on. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK) I don't get paid enough to be taxed. Next year, my tax rebate will be everything that was automatically taken out of my income as taxes. I still can't afford the $250 to see a doctor about my ear, much less whatever he would prescribe for it. My problem is desiring to further my education next year (which would reinstate my health care) and thus not more actively going after Medicaid, which by all reasons should be free to me. I'm walking on thin ice right now for the purpose of scrounging up money for the ludicrous tuition costs of the school I attended in the face of diminishing federal loans. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Sorry, I probably should have noticed from your flag that you're not an American. Here, everyone who has any money pays some of it to taxes. Even if you're not earning money, and therefore not paying income taxes, you still have sales tax anytime you buy something, property taxes if you have a roof over your head, gas taxes if you drive, and a hojillion other taxes on practically everything imaginable. Not to mention that many of the regulations on the economy end up driving production costs up (and therefore driving prices up) while making nearly no impact on worker or consumer safety, meaning that buying just about anything, including food, is more expensive. So, life is harder for everyone because of these things. Anyway, I'm going to make a recommendation, and you may or may not choose to follow it (hey, it's your life): get a job. I know it's hard to work and go to school, but I work 40 hours a week, go to school full time, and still pull off Bs. If your tuition is too expensive, see about transferring to a college with lower expenses, so your loans will cover more. Neither of these are a perfect solution, but it's better than starving and it's better than dying of an ear infection.

Feb 15, 2004, 12:34 pm	#27 (permalink) (top)
syracusa Igneous Magma Posts: 623	No...this poll is completely useless because the sample is extremely non-representative of the larger population. Theretically, I am middle class (with clothes, computer and all that) but that's mainly because I am married. Lacking any sort of health insurance and being screwed left and right by all kinds of "business people" and "entrepreneurs" (from doctors, insurance companies, builders (for the house), contractors - simply because the laws are skewed in their favor - that makes me feel darn poor. I teach college doing the same thing a University professor does - but I get paid a miserable amount wich is then partially taken away by "University fees". Theoretically I may be middle class - but in reality I feel very poor. I continue to believe that beyond the level of physical survival(where you literally struggle to stay alive), relative poverty matters MORE (and makes you feel more miserable) than absolute poverty. COMPETITION BRINGS THE BEST IN PRODUCTS AND THE WORST IN RELATIONSHIPS.

Feb 15, 2004, 11:39 pm	#28 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (AnonT,) Sorry, I probably should have noticed from your flag that you're not an American. Here, everyone who has any money pays some of it to taxes. Even if you're not earning money, and therefore not paying income taxes, you still have sales tax anytime you buy something, property taxes if you have a roof over your head, gas taxes if you drive, and a hojillion other taxes on practically everything imaginable. Not to mention that many of the regulations on the economy end up driving production costs up (and therefore driving prices up) while making nearly no impact on worker or consumer safety, meaning that buying just about anything, including food, is more expensive. So, life is harder for everyone because of these things. Anyway, I'm going to make a recommendation, and you may or may not choose to follow it (hey, it's your life): get a job. I know it's hard to work and go to school, but I work 40 hours a week, go to school full time, and still pull off Bs. If your tuition is too expensive, see about transferring to a college with lower expenses, so your loans will cover more. Neither of these are a perfect solution, but it's better than starving and it's better than dying of an ear infection.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>Actually, if you'd taken a closer look, you'd find out that I am a New Yorker. The flag is because of the people in my neighborhood. However, I don't drive (so no gas tax), I rent (so I don't pay property tax), and food is not taxed. Taxes are not what bother me. Bureaucracy is. Making it easier for me to get on Medicaid would be much appreciated, but the city is strapped for funds because upstaters don't give us our fair share of federal block grants, and such problems cause difficulties in the policies of the programs. I will say that it is because of rent stabilization that I even have a roof over my head! But it is because of the lack of federal funds that the economy is taking so damned long to regain itself, and the city is not gaining jobs at any rate conceivably near "growth". Which brings me to my next point: --sarcasm mode-- You mean all I had to do was find a job?! Really? Wow! I was WONDERING where I was going wrong! --sarcasm mode-- I told you I was working three temp jobs. The job market's terrible! And there's nothing those tax cuts did about them! I want my government fucking subsidy! . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Feb 16, 2004, 12:02 am	#29 (permalink) (top)
the_anawim Sedimentary Rock Location: Clinton, MS Posts: 15	I'm certainly not poor--but I have tremendous respect for the poor, and I am trying to cut down on non-essentials . . . slowly but surely. Are any of you aware of any groups living in voluntary poverty? I'm a big fan of the Catholic Worker. Peace, Scott

Feb 16, 2004, 12:26 am	#30 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	I am not aware of any groups but I have known individuals who have made this choice. I myself made this choice many years ago.

Feb 16, 2004, 01:27 am	#31 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	It's funny how many people resign themselves to voluntary poverty when offered no other choice. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Feb 16, 2004, 01:41 am	#32 (permalink) (top)
Packratt Molten Ash Location: Crimetown USA Posts: 130	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,) It's funny how many people resign themselves to voluntary poverty when offered no other choice. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Well, for what it's worth, I don't resign myself to poverty even though it's a state of being that I am all too familiar with and I know how to survive it. I do what I can to climb out of the pits of despair, just as I have done before for brief periods of time. Situations do happen that are beyond our control though, and when they happen you have no choice but to keep fighting, whether it's for mere survival or whatever other option there is at any given moment. It's not resignation, it's acceptance of the factual reality at that point in time, counting the other intangible things you might still have of value that others cannot rob from you, and moving on to change that desperate situation or survive it when you really are offered no other choice. Like I mentioned before, there is no glory in poverty when it is not a planned choice, especially when innocent children are forced to endure it. But, as I said, there is good and bad wrapped up in the same package, and you usually have to take them both in the same huge and hard to swallow horse pill. "...the worker's liberty... is only a theoretical freedom, lacking any means for its possible realisation, and consequently it is only a fictitious liberty, an utter falsehood. -Bakunin

Feb 16, 2004, 02:18 am	#33 (permalink) (top)
Colleptic Charlatan Society Location: Kelowna BC Canada Posts: 59	[color=darkred]Poor.[/color] I do not like that word; my life taught me there is no such thing. I can say, when my parents were "together" at the beginnings of my life, I was in a 100,000 to 300,000ish a year household. Eventually, in a house with something like 5 bedrooms, couple (4?) full bathrooms, disco barroom, full sized heated pool, sauna etc., etc., etc., the mother and the kids had to run from a tyrant and immediately to welfare. This was in the 80’s when a rich man, with enough power, could get around paying child support. Nonetheless, I first experienced skipping meals by choice, because I was a little rich kid and did not like the food, to skipping meals just because they were not there. Fortunately my Mother got herself educated, which put us back above the poverty level (slightly). But a single mother raising two children, just over the poverty level was tough. She could never afford to buy us a house, herself a new car etc. I managed to go to University through government grants. With that done, I am no better off. In order to become one of the two things I want to become, it requires either a Masters or a focussed program, which I cannot afford. (About 50,000...ya right eh?). So, I did manage to go to University...even though I could not afford it, but I still cannot afford to do things in which I should be doing, like making my physical art, or film/video work to keep my skills up for a masters or focus. So as I type, I sit here working a job that just gets me by, while I try and find every piece of funding I can to afford to finish what I started. I did vote for, “I'm wealthier than most of the world. I have a roof, food, computer, electricity, and clothes”, because that is true, but what does that prove? [color=blue]Am I poor, was I poor, was I rich, am I rich? It depends on who is the JUDGE; we are all poorer than the other man, the ego man.[/color]

Feb 16, 2004, 04:29 pm	#34 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	I notice "poor" and "poverty" being tossed about almost as synonyms, and am left wondering what points are actually being made. Those with little income but great tracts of property or vast collections can in fact be living below poverty, as poverty is a measure of income, not wealth. I have also noted that many use the possession of some specific items as a sign of being middle class, but would anyone argue that one who makes under $10k in the US is middle class, regardless of whether they have made the choices that allow them to have some of these items, such as a personal computer?

Feb 16, 2004, 05:52 pm	#35 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	You are mistaken, Lightbearer; while people tend to associate income with wealth levels, assets are important. Somebody sitting on a dozen acres of profitable real estate is not poor. But if you're going to do that, you have to realize, also, that poverty levels are also determined by the cost of living - making $22,000 in New York does not necessarily mean more than making $17,000 in Ohio. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Feb 16, 2004, 06:05 pm	#36 (permalink) (top)
damnrad Igneous Magma Posts: 264	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,) Just curious, anyone here really poor? I don't mean "middle class poor". Thats when you can afford luxuries such as computers, televisions, a roof, and a microwave. I'm talking about real poverty - malnutrition, begging, hunger, living in a dumpster. Its just that everyone in here seems to say they're pretty poor, I expect at least 50% to be living in poverty.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> There are a few other gradations between those last two. And they're important, because many in them (including myself) would have been much poorer were it not for some mid-20th-Century reforms. And some of those reforms have been undone, and others are still being rapidly undone by the Bushistas. It's not who's poor now -- it's who will be if the situation doesn't change.

Feb 16, 2004, 06:32 pm	#37 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by You are mistaken, Lightbearer; while people tend to associate income with wealth levels, assets are important. Somebody sitting on a dozen acres of profitable real estate is not poor. But if you're going to do that, you have to realize, also, that poverty levels are also determined by the cost of living - making $22,000 in New York does not necessarily mean more than making $17,000 in Ohio.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Um.. so how do you believe I was mistaken? Nothing you stated contradicts that which I stated. In fact I agree with all that you said, except the first statement. Assets are indeed important, that was clear from my example as to confusing income with assets. I made the distinction between judging on income and judging upon wealth, and noted how that relates to the two terms "poverty" and "poor" I believe that Colleptic alluded to a similar point in the previous post. One can live a lifestyle with which he is happy and without wants, but have neither money nor vast income. Such a man is not poor, though he is not wealthy.

Feb 16, 2004, 07:37 pm	#38 (permalink) (top)
syracusa Igneous Magma Posts: 623	Colleptic, I am so sorry for the split of your parents and ...all respect to your mom for the efforts she made after that to take care of you. I wish more of my students were aware of cases like yours when they ask "...but what's wrong with just wanting to marry a man who makes good money so I can be a homemaker and just raise my children?" Uuughhhhhh....THIS??? COMPETITION BRINGS THE BEST IN PRODUCTS AND THE WORST IN RELATIONSHIPS.

Feb 16, 2004, 09:37 pm	#39 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	The reason for this poll is because most of you seem to (claim) you understand all poor people. Also a question for the truely poor - are you actively learning on ways to improve your financial situation, or are you just working blindly at 4 jobs? Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Feb 16, 2004, 09:44 pm	#40 (permalink) (top)
Lightbearer Guest Posts: n/a	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by The reason for this poll is because most of you seem to (claim) you understand all poor people. Also a question for the truely poor - are you actively learning on ways to improve your financial situation, or are you just working blindly at 4 jobs?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Two issues: 1. How are you defining "poor?" Does it rely on an income amount? On possessions? Do the choices we each make in life matter with regard to this label? 2. What makes one think that those who fit this label of "poor" must be in a situation which they find unappealing? Do not assume that I am stating anything, including the notion that all who fit this as of yet unclear definition of "poor," are in that situation because they desire to be, but neither am I assuming that all those who fit this label of poor, are there for reasons other than their own choices.