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Dadoo · Jun 3, 2005, 11:32 pm

The phrase, "Beyond a shadow of a doubt", has always seemed like a very malleable term for serious courtroom proceedings. There seems so many ways to translate it.
My question is 2-part:

1) What does the phrase actually mean in laymen's terms?

2) Could a better phrase be used, what is it, and why?

Curious in "Philogia",
Dadoo

Dieval · Jun 3, 2005, 11:41 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Dadoo

The phrase, "Beyond a shadow of a doubt", has always seemed like a very malleable term for serious courtroom proceedings. There seems so many ways to translate it.
My question is 2-part:

1) What does the phrase actually mean in laymen's terms?

2) Could a better phrase be used, what is it, and why?

Curious in "Philogia",
Dadoo

Here ya go..

Quote:

1 entry found for beyond a doubt.

beyond a doubt

Also, beyond the shadow of a doubt. Certainly so, undoubtedly so, as in Beyond a doubt this is the best view of the valley. This phrase, along with the earlier without doubt (dating from c. 1300), asserts the truth of some statement. W.S. Gilbert's version, in The Gondoliers (1889), is: "Of that there is no manner of doubtno probable, possible shadow of doubtno possible doubt whatever." In this context shadow means "a trace or slight suggestion." Another variant is beyond a reasonable doubt. This phrase is often used in court when the judge instructs the jury that they must be convinced of the accused's guilt or innocence beyond a reasonable doubt; reasonable here means "logical and rational."
http://dictionary.reference.com/sear...nd%20a%20doubt

MerlinsByte · Jun 4, 2005, 12:03 am

what it means to me is cock sure

Dadoo · Jun 5, 2005, 04:53 pm

But...
are you sure?

"without a doubt"

leaves less room for uncertainty, for me.
or,
"Absolutely sure"
"convinced"

Just musing,
Dadoo

Nono · Jun 6, 2005, 05:30 am

"Beyond a reasonable doubt" always seemed better to me since doubt is always possible.
Of course, the problem then is what is reasonable.

samsara15 · Jun 6, 2005, 10:24 am

One person's criteria for 'beyond a shadow of a doubt' certainly differs very much from another's, based on my infrequent experiences as a juror. And people also differ in what they consider to be reasonable. A lot of arm twisting goes on in juries, that does not serve well to promote either the cause of truth or justice.

Dadoo · Jun 6, 2005, 01:26 pm

Indeed Samsara,

Reasonable means "logical and rational" according to Dieval's first post.
Sounds like opinions are all we have left!

Jun 3, 2005, 11:32 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
Dadoo Pure Energy Posts: 438	In the shadow. The phrase, "Beyond a shadow of a doubt", has always seemed like a very malleable term for serious courtroom proceedings. There seems so many ways to translate it. My question is 2-part: 1) What does the phrase actually mean in laymen's terms? 2) Could a better phrase be used, what is it, and why? Curious in "Philogia", Dadoo Heartbeat, the only song you will not hear until it's gone.

Jun 5, 2005, 04:53 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
Dadoo Pure Energy Posts: 438	But... are you sure? "without a doubt" leaves less room for uncertainty, for me. or, "Absolutely sure" "convinced" Just musing, Dadoo Heartbeat, the only song you will not hear until it's gone.

Jun 6, 2005, 05:30 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
Nono Throbbing Member Location: Old Europe Posts: 7,444	"Beyond a reasonable doubt" always seemed better to me since doubt is always possible. Of course, the problem then is what is reasonable. "I wish I was as cocksure of anything as Tom Macaulay is of everything." -- Viscount Melbourne

Jun 6, 2005, 01:26 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
Dadoo Pure Energy Posts: 438	Indeed Samsara, Reasonable means "logical and rational" according to Dieval's first post. Sounds like opinions are all we have left! Heartbeat, the only song you will not hear until it's gone.

Jun 4, 2005, 12:03 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
MerlinsByte BANNED Posts: 1,267	what it means to me is cock sure

Jun 6, 2005, 10:24 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
samsara15 I'm the camel Location: Maryland Posts: 657	One person's criteria for 'beyond a shadow of a doubt' certainly differs very much from another's, based on my infrequent experiences as a juror. And people also differ in what they consider to be reasonable. A lot of arm twisting goes on in juries, that does not serve well to promote either the cause of truth or justice.