A Torture Primer

[RickSp]

A Torture Primer from Slate magazine.

It is not true, as many in the Arab world believe, that the United States has embarked on a reckless campaign of torture and abuse of its Arab prisoners of war. But what has happened—a slow slide from coherent, consistent standards for interrogation and treatment of prisoners to a sometimes ad-hoc, occasionally brutal search for information at all costs—should warrant public outcry. That it has not suggests either that this shift doesn't interest us because it affects outsiders, or that we no longer consider torture or near-torture to be beyond the bounds of civil conduct.

A thoughtful analysis. Worth reading.

[The Analog Kid]

Yawn.

Isolated incidents committed by the acts of a few bad apples in an otherwise bunch of wonderful brave men and women.

But hey, Volconvo could use a litte more Anti-American threads.

[Digital Man]

It is not true, as many in the Arab world believe, that the United States has embarked on a reckless campaign of torture and abuse of its Arab prisoners of war

Great...then we can all agree it was not "systematic" nor was it offically sanctioned.

To return to the original point, when Abu Ghraib erupted Myers claimed he hadn't had time to read his own general's report. Myers has actively managed the coverup which blamed privates and sergents and gave flag officers a pass. If Myers has not been consistantly lying then he is incredibily stupid, which I seriously doubt.

will you retract this quote from earlier today? It sounds like you are claiming the abuse in Abu Ghraib came from flag officers.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Digital Man will you retract this quote from earlier today? It sounds like you are claiming the abuse in Abu Ghraib came from flag officers.

So it appears that all you read was the short quote I provided. It is the last paragraph of the presentation and has a slightly more generous, tone perhaps because of the damning languge used just before.

Major General Geoffrey Miller, who brought torture to AbuGhraib from Gitmo, is a disgrace and should be tried as a war criminal. Anthony Christino III, former Army lieutenant colonel and senior watch officer for the Joint Intelligence Task Force-Combating Terrorism at Gitmo was using relatively humane techniques to handle the detainees. A more complete quote:

Christino argues that the best interrogators wrest good information from their captives by building trust. Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, who took over as commander of Guantanamo in November 2002, didn't opt to go that route. Charged explicitly with increasing the intelligence yield coming out of the base, Miller stepped up the pressure. He rewarded detainees who provided information and punished those who didn't. According to FBI agents, those punishments caused great suffering, as we have detailed here. Miller's push toward harsher tactics relied on the foundation established by lawyers in President Bush's Justice Department and his Department of Defense. These lawyers crafted arguments that approved the use of interrogation tactics—including the use of stress positions and dogs—which had formerly been out of bounds. These policies were deliberately designed to carve out exceptions to international rules regarding prisoners of war that the United States had once championed and led the world to embrace. The rules would remain in place for everyone except the detainees in Guantanamo and Afghanistan purported to possess valuable information that they would not otherwise divulge. "These are the worst of a very bad lot," Vice President Dick Cheney said of the Guantanamo prisoners, according to Rose. "They are very dangerous. They are devoted to killing millions of Americans, innocent Americans, if they can." It is difficult to challenge such a consequentialist argument, for few Americans would rather follow the rules than prevent another terror attack. The exceptions to the standard military doctrine of interrogation, however, did not remain exceptions. They swallowed the rules, as exceptions are prone to do. The real legacy of American interrogation practices, post-9/11, is that practices and justifications that should have been reserved for the worst of the worst (assuming we could know who they are) began to be used indiscriminately. In the eyes of the government, they began to seem almost normal. The effect has been to turn America from the world's leader on many issues of international human-rights law into the world's tyrant.

[Paavo]

But hey, Volconvo could use a litte more Anti-American threads.

A pro-American person* should be the one raving about things like torture and lack of fair, western-style trials, no?

(*-A genuine one, not a neo-con-trend-patriot)

[fedfem]

I am dumbfounded how republican ideals held by our founding fathers are labeled anti-american or unpatriotic by those who support Bush and ilk today. They don't realize they actually hold similar views to those of Hitler and his fascist followers.

Lack of education or perhaps brainwashing is to blame but it is quite scary from the perspective of a non-partisan history buff.

[RickSp]

Quote by: fedfem I am dumbfounded how republican ideals held by our founding fathers are labeled anti-american or unpatriotic by those who support Bush and ilk today. They don't realize they actually hold similar views to those of Hitler and his fascist followers. Lack of education or perhaps brainwashing is to blame but it is quite scary from the perspective of a non-partisan history buff.

If the neocns were around in 1770 they would have sided with King George, just as they side with King George today. Sad how history repeats itself.

[PatrickHenry]

Anyone see this evening's Frontline on PBS? http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/torture/
Current allegations are that torture is VERY widespread in Iraq, being practiced by US troops everywhere there is no camera...

John McCain, lotta character to stand up to Dubya with an amendment to the war appropriations bill to clarify that the US holds itself to a higher standard... The amendment got support from 46 out of 55 Republican Senators as well as all the opposition. Now lets see if the House has any character or if they are spineless Bush toadies...

[Autolykos]

Quote by: RickSp A Torture Primer from Slate magazine. A thoughtful analysis. Worth reading.

Isn't torture often routine procedure in some police departments these days? The behavior I see on many police TV shows often approaches torture.

- Rob

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Paavo A pro-American person* should be the one raving about things like torture and lack of fair, western-style trials, no? (*-A genuine one, not a neo-con-trend-patriot)

Thank you Paavo, I really think points like that need to be driven home to some of these people. Damn this learned nationalistic patriotism that blinds people.


These people watch the news on television, and think they are informed about an issue, and just go forth spewing the regugitated talking points. It has a become a tired, played out story, and I for one am sick of it.

[xyzer]

I find some of the responses on this thread ludicrous because participants haven't settled on what acts constitute torture.
Torture can mean different things to different people. To Rick, and some other antiwar types, if means allowing a prisoner to get chilled or depriving him of his prayer mat,or from reading his Kuran. To me it means actually inflicting pain(not discomfort) injury or mutilation on a prisoner. Inflicting permanent physical damage.

So far I haven't seen any pictorial, or actual evidence, of this.I've just hear the term torture APPLIED TO ANY ACT DIRECTED TOWARDS A PRISONER. If in fact someone was tortured at Gitmo why don't we have evidence of it? If someone was physically injured at Abu Grahaib where is the evidence?
Instead we get pictures of prisones stripped nakid by a few perverted guards(who have siince been court martialed) and stories of mental abuse and ridicule which are immediately transformed by the antiwar crowd and the media into torture and followed by accusations that this torture was comdoned by all sort of people including the Secretary of Defense.

Give me a break and get back to reality. Most of these POW are incarcerated because they were plotting, trying, or actually committing murder, arson and worse on us. Us includes innocent men, women and children. They do not claim allegience to any country and don't wear military uniforms identifying them as combatants...so they don't meet the definition of a Geneva Convenbtion protected combatant.

I don't advocate torture as I define it! However, I haven't seen anyn serious evidence that it was officially allowed or countenanced generally by our military.

[Boetie]

I believe that people who advocate torture must go through the experience first. I will start a business where I torture you, don't expect me to do this for free. Our first clients will be the idiotic clowns running the government today. The trick is to get lunatics like Bush Jr, Cheney, Rummy the dummy etc, to confess they took my last sandwich out of the refrigerator. Imagine the suprise the torture advocates will have when I am able to get a signed and videoed confession from each and everyone of the current govt buffoons. This will certainly make the advocates of torture rethink their position when they hear their clown prince Bush Jr say, "I Bush Jr took Boeite's last sandwhich out of the refrigerator."

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: xyzer allowing a prisoner to get chilled

This man says it wasn't about "allowing" hypothermia. It was packing the body in ice water and monitoring rectal temperature so the tortured prisoner wouldn't die.http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...agouranis.html That's not torture?

Quote by: xyzer a few perverted guards

The evidence is that this is widespread in US operations throughout the Mid East. The US has taken pages from the savage book if Israeli torture.

Quote by: xyzer Inflicting permanent physical damage.

So unless the prisoner has his fingers cut off he wasn't tortured? Allow me to beat your wife with a rubber hose...

Quote by: xyzer So far I haven't seen any pictorial, or actual evidence, of this.

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/ea..._id=1001218842

September 29, 2005 12:45 PM ET NEW YORK A federal judge ruled today that graphic pictures of detainee abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison must be released over government claims that they could damage America's image. Last year a Republican senator conceded that they contained scenes of "rape and murder" and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said they included acts that were "blatantly sadistic."

Quote by: xyzer If in fact someone was tortured at Gitmo why don't we have evidence of it? If someone was physically injured at Abu Grahaib where is the evidence?

You need photographs from a secure US facility to convince you? The evidence has been cited. Lift your head from the sand, xyzostrich...

Quote by: xyzer Most of these POW are incarcerated because they were plotting, trying, or actually committing murder, arson and worse on us.

Most of them were civilians dragooned in sweeps who had no connection to terrorism whatsoever. They are victims of US TERROR!

Quote by: xyzer They do not claim allegience to any country and don't wear military uniforms identifying them as combatants...so they don't meet the definition of a Geneva Convenbtion protected combatant.

But they do meet the standard of protected civilian, especially if there is no evidence linking them to military operations. You are living in the stone age, xyzer.

[RickSp]

xyzer,

I am amazed how proud you seem to be of being uninformed. The torture and abuse of prisoners in US custody is disgustingly well documented. Here is a limited sample. You might do so reading on the topic, unless you would rather just hold your hands over your ears and keep repeating "nothing happened."

Abuse: Systematic And Chronic

3 in 82nd Airborne Say Beating Iraqi Prisoners Was Routine

Abu Ghraib POW torture Pictures

Documents Tell of Brutal Improvisation by GIs

CHAIN OF COMMAND

Afghan prisoners beaten to death at US military interrogation base

Firsthand Accounts of Torture of Iraqi Detainees by the U.S. Army’s 82nd Airborne Division

The John McCain of Bagram Prison