Detainee Abuse - the Lying Continues

[RickSp]

The important thing about a lie is that you have to keep repeating it regardless of all evidence to the contrary. General Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, understands this well.

Terrorism suspects held in the U.S. Navy prison camp at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, are being dealt with "humanely" and with "dignity," the nation's top military officer says in disputing reported abuses.

Myers: Terror Suspects Treated 'Humanely'

The man is a disgrace to the uniform.

Further Abuse

THE LATEST FBI documents detailing allegations of prisoner abuse at Guantanamo Bay are, like previous FBI documents, highly disturbing. They contain prisoners' descriptions of beatings, strippings and abuse of the Koran. Detainees variously claim the Muslim holy book has been thrown on the floor, thrown against a wall and, yes, flushed in a toilet. There are also references to these kinds of events having led to an "altercation" between detainees and guards. But the status of these documents is nearly as disturbing as their content. They can be found, again like previous FBI documents, only on the Web site of the American Civil Liberties Union, which obtained them by suing the government under the Freedom of Information Act. They did not, in other words, appear in the context of a government or military investigation.

[Digital Man]

They contain prisoners' descriptions of beatings, strippings and abuse of the Koran. Detainees variously claim the Muslim holy book has been thrown on the floor, thrown against a wall and, yes, flushed in a toilet. There are also references to these kinds of events having led to an "altercation" between detainees and guards.

Well...if the prisoners made these claims then it must be true. I'll put this in my notebook as more leftist proof of more lies

[Nono]

So you're saying it isn't true, correct Dig? Let's be absolutely clear about this.

[Matt W]

Digital Man - no one-liners, please. Respond with a reasoned argument.

Do not respond to me within this thread.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Digital Man Well...if the prisoners made these claims then it must be true. I'll put this in my notebook as more leftist proof of more lies

So I guess you figured it all out. The Abu Ghraib photos were faked. The prisoners beaten to death are elaborate hoxes. The FBI reports and first hand accounts of US personnel are all lies.

And the Easter bunny delivers eggs to you every Easter.

If you sink any deeper in denial the crocodiles 'll eat you.

[Cephus]

Quote by: RickSp So I guess you figured it all out. The Abu Ghraib photos were faked. The prisoners beaten to death are elaborate hoxes. The FBI reports and first hand accounts of US personnel are all lies.

Of course it never happened, and the moon landing was produced on a sound stage.

The things some people will believe, sheesh...

[Matt W]

Folks...leave it. I've asked Digital Man to quit the one-liners - same applies to you!

[Digital Man]

Quote by: RickSp The important thing about a lie is that you have to keep repeating it regardless of all evidence to the contrary.

I never made a claim that the information is true/false. I was pointing out that the 'evidence' presented was from the prisoners themselves.....this hardly constitutes proof of a lie.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Digital Man I never made a claim that the information is true/false. I was pointing out that the 'evidence' presented was from the prisoners themselves.....this hardly constitutes proof of a lie.

OK, do you contend that the evidence is false or are you hiding being your own twisted rhetoric? Of course, the FBI reports are not the only evidence nor does all evidence rely on detainee accounts.

To return to the original point, when Abu Ghraib erupted Myers claimed he hadn't had time to read his own general's report. Myers has actively managed the coverup which blamed privates and sergents and gave flag officers a pass. If Myers has not been consistantly lying then he is incredibily stupid, which I seriously doubt.

[Digital Man]

Quote by: RickSp OK, do you contend that the evidence is false or are you hiding being your own twisted rhetoric?

No...I contend that if you call someone a liar you have solid proof not allegations from prisoners and enemies of the state.

Quote by: RickSp Of course, the FBI reports are not the only evidence nor does all evidence rely on detainee accounts.

True...we have newsweek accounts also. But I was sticking to what was presented

Quote by: RickSp To return to the original point, when Abu Ghraib erupted Myers claimed he hadn't had time to read his own general's report.

He was in charge of a war...maybe prison abuse was not on his priority list

Quote by: RickSp Myers has actively managed the coverup which blamed privates and sergents and gave flag officers a pass.

So you are sure there was a coverup and you have proof Meyers 'actively managed' it?

Quote by: RickSp If Myers has not been consistantly lying then he is incredibily stupid, which I seriously doubt.

Or your logic is flawed and there are other reasons.

Maybe he is consistantly ltelling the truth and you have focused on lies told by prisoners and also on non-sanctioned prisoner abuse which was the exception rather then the rule? I don't know...just pointing out another possibility

[Dieval]

Quote by: article In the case of the Koran, for example, most or all of the offenses appear to have occurred before January 2003, when the Pentagon responded to prisoner protests by issuing strict guidelines for handling the Koran.

Why are we still talking about problems that occurred almost 2.5 years ago?

[RickSp]

Quote by: Dieval Why are we still talking about problems that occurred almost 2.5 years ago?

Because nothing has changed? Because an Amnesty International report came out days ago describing an "American gulag", a report which Dubya, Meyers and Cheney all attacked within the last 24 hours? Sounds pretty topical to me.

[Dieval]

Quote by: RickSp Because nothing has changed? Because an Amnesty International report came out days ago describing an "American gulag", a report which Dubya, Meyers and Cheney all attacked within the last 24 hours? Sounds pretty topical to me.

This article seems to sum up the use of the "American gulag" statement well..

'American Gulag' IT'S ALWAYS SAD when a solid, trustworthy institution loses its bearings and joins in the partisan fracas that nowadays passes for political discourse. .... But we draw the line at the use of the word "gulag" or at the implication that the United States has somehow become the modern equivalent of Stalin's Soviet Union. Guantanamo Bay is an ad hoc creation, designed to contain captured enemy combatants in wartime. Abuses there -- including new evidence of desecrating the Koran -- have been investigated and discussed by the FBI, the press and, to a still limited extent, the military. The Soviet gulag, by contrast, was a massive forced labor complex consisting of thousands of concentration camps and hundreds of exile villages through which more than 20 million people passed during Stalin's lifetime and whose existence was not acknowledged until after his death. Its modern equivalent is not Guantanamo Bay, but the prisons of Cuba, where Amnesty itself says a new generation of prisoners of conscience reside; or the labor camps of North Korea, which were set up on Stalinist lines; or China's laogai , the true size of which isn't even known; or, until recently, the prisons of Saddam Hussein's Iraq.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Dieval This article seems to sum up the use of the "American gulag" statement well..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanista...440836,00.html
Yeah, Dieval. The provinces are the location for the gulag system. Gitmo is too small to accomodate more than one or two. If you wanta see the American gulag system, you gotta look at Afghanistan:

Washington likes to hold up Afghanistan as an exemplar of how a rogue regime can be replaced by democracy. Meanwhile, human-rights activists and Afghan politicians have accused the US military of placing Afghanistan at the hub of a global system of detention centres where prisoners are held incommunicado and allegedly subjected to torture. The secrecy surrounding them prevents any real independent investigation of the allegations. "The detention system in Afghanistan exists entirely outside international norms, but it is only part of a far larger and more sinister jail network that we are only now beginning to understand," Michael Posner, director of the US legal watchdog Human Rights First, told us.

[lsbskins1]

I would think that the important point in all this back and forth would be this...

If you claim the moral high ground, you have to stand on the moral high ground. It does not matter that terrorists do bad things. It would be like God arguing that it would be fine for Him to cheat, lie and steal. After all, Satan does all of these things and you have to fight fire with fire. Does that sound reasonable to anyone? Of course not, because it is not reasonable. We, the United States of America, claim to be the force of good and right in this war. If we are, we need to behave that way. Ignore all the history that shows that torture, in the end, hurts authority more than it helps it. Just look at it from the right/wrong standpoint. There is ample evidence that we are torturing people ourselves and allowing it to be done by proxy. The report uses the harsh terms that it does mostly because of the contradiction between what the US is supposed to stand for and the abuses they are allowing to occur. To believe that it is acceptable to feel good because the abuses we are responsible for are not as heinous nor as vast as those of Stalin or Hitler is like a murderer saying, "Hey, don't punish me or hold me responsible, Ted Bundy killed alot more people than I did!" It is rubish and not worth the ink or breath it takes to communicate. WE SHOULD BE DOING ALOT BETTER and there is cause for shame. And who the hell do you think the accusations are going to come from? We aren't holding nuns in Cuba. If we are abusing prisoners, prisoners are the ones who are going to report it!

[rmnunez]

The head of the Amnesty International USA said on Sunday the group doesn't "know for sure" that the military is running a "gulag." Executive Director William Schulz said Amnesty, often cited worldwide for documenting human rights abuses, also did not know whether Secretary Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld approved severe torture methods such as beatings and starvation. Schulz recently dubbed Rumsfeld an "apparent high-level architect of torture" in asserting he approved interrogation methods that violated international law. "It would be fascinating to find out. I have no idea," Schulz told "Fox News Sunday." http://reuters.myway.com/article/200...MNESTY-DC.html

Apparently the Executive Director of AI believes the best way to advance that entity’s goals is to make acusations and see if something sticks. Naturally one wonders whether AI "knows for sure" about other accusations they have made relating to human rights anywhere else.

I also saw a note they had contributed generously to the Democratic presidential bid.

[mr.perfecto]

Really? Well you need to consider the gravity of what they suspect is happening. If you thought Bush's stormtroopers were torturing innocents you would support the other cannidate too. At least you would if you were Honest and Moral.

It's great to see such strong faith, now if only it could be redirected towards something greater that petty political propaganda.