Noam Chomsky, Hero or Zero?

[moustache]

VX gas has been verified since the attack on the "pharmaceutical" company took place. Mr. Hussein used VX in an attack on the Kurdish town of Halabja which supposedly killed 5,000.

[grandpa]

Quote by: The Analog Kid What is silly about it? I've read quotes that say he loves America, wants it to uphold it's values, etc, etc... I just want a inkling of evidence that he does indeed love America. I'd say that being in the "America does all wrong" camp is just as harmful and disingenious as the "America can do no wrong" camp that leftists decry and moan about.

America is an abstract entity, so there's nothing to love.
I don't love America anymore than Sweden or Spain. It's just a system of government that often makes decisions that do the opposite of protecting its own citizens. Flags and national anthems are meaningless to me, as I think they should be to anyone.

Quote by: The Analog Kid What of them?

Our government supported dictators directly, that's "what of them."
Seems to me that if a country wants to spread freedom it doesn't support dictators and seek out warfare wherever it can find it.

Grandpa h.

[RickSp]

Quote by: fedfem Show me. Last I heard no WMD have been found. I am sure we would have heard if there were.

Beware of neo-cons playing Clinton-esk word games.

Oh course Saddam had nerve gas. He used it on the Iranians and Kurds in 1988. (It isn't clear actually who gassed the Kurds as both Iran and Iraq were using chemical weapons against each other.) Rumsfeld arranged to get the US made helicopters that Saddam used to drop the stuff.

Throughout the period that Rumsfeld was Reagan’s Middle East envoy, Iraq was frantically purchasing hardware from American firms, empowered by the White House to sell. The buying frenzy began immediately after Iraq was removed from the list of alleged sponsors of terrorism in 1982. According to a February 13, 1991 Los Angeles Times article: “First on Hussein's shopping list was helicopters -- he bought 60 Hughes helicopters and trainers with little notice. However, a second order of 10 twin-engine Bell "Huey" helicopters, like those used to carry combat troops in Vietnam, prompted congressional opposition in August, 1983... Nonetheless, the sale was approved.” In 1988, Saddam’s forces attacked Kurdish civilians with poisonous gas from Iraqi helicopters and planes. U.S. intelligence sources told The LA Times in 1991, they “believe that the American-built helicopters were among those dropping the deadly bombs.”

The Saddam in Rumsfeld’s Closet

So Saddam had nerve gas. He just hadn't had any significant stocks of nerve gas since it was destroyed following the first Gulf War. Most nerve gas has a relatively short shelf life so any unaccounted for stocks are probably long past dangerous.

There has been at least one old nerve gas shell found with trace elemets of sarin, which have sent neocon hearts a-flutter, but they were outdated stock.

The bizarre irony of it all was when Saddam had and was using nerve gas, we were his allies and provided him with military hardware. When he no longer had chemical weapons and was no concievable threat, we invaded.

[fedfem]

Quote by: moustache VX gas has been verified since the attack on the "pharmaceutical" company took place. Mr. Hussein used VX in an attack on the Kurdish town of Halabja which supposedly killed 5,000.

The Kurdish incident happened in the 80s.

[RickSp]

Quote by: moustache VX gas has been verified since the attack on the "pharmaceutical" company took place. Mr. Hussein used VX in an attack on the Kurdish town of Halabja which supposedly killed 5,000.

Would it worthwhile to stipulate that the attack that you reference took place in 1988? Saddam never used chemical weapons against the US in the first Gulf War, fearing massive retalition.

As both Iran and Iraq were using chemical wepons during a battle in which the Kurdish village was attacked, it is uncertain who actually bombed Halaja with poison gas. One US DIA report blamed the Iranians based on the type of gas used.

ABSTRACT - Op-Ed article by Stephen C Pelletiere, senior CIA political analyst on Iraq during Iran-Iraq war, lays out facts in allegation that Saddam Hussein gassed Iraqi Kurds in Halabja in March 1988; says all that is known for certain is that Kurds were hit with poison gas that day, during battle with Iranians; explains that US Defense Intelligence Agency's report found both sides used gas during battle, and blamed Iranians for Kurdish deaths; notes Kurds died of cyanide-based gas that Iran, but not Iraq, had at time; explains that Iran sought control of key dam near Halabja, part of impressive Iraqi waterway system that is most extensive in Mideast; adds that Bush administration owes Americans full facts before going to war

A War Crime Or an Act of War?

[moustache]

Quote by: fedfem The Kurdish incident happened in the 80s.

The point is Saddam had the gas, you wanted proof thats saddam had the gas, thats my proof

Quote by: RickSp Would it worthwhile to stipulate that the attack that you reference took place in 1988? Saddam never used chemical weapons against the US in the first Gulf War, fearing massive retalition. As both Iran and Iraq were using chemical wepons during a battle in which the Kurdish village was attacked, it is uncertain who actually bombed Halaja with poison gas. One US DIA report blamed the Iranians based on the type of gas used.

My point is that Saddam had the gas, which I dont need to prove to you because you already know, fedfem wanted an example of how we know saddam had the gas, and this was my example. Regardless if it was actually saddam who bombed halabja or not, he had the gas. no?

[RickSp]

Quote by: moustache The point is Saddam had the gas, you wanted proof thats saddam had the gas, thats my proof

Pretty lame. Fedfem's comment was clearly referring the claims that Saddam had WMD immediately before the beginning of the current war. Responding that Saddm "had" nerve gas is wildly out of context if you are suddenly dropping back in time almost 20 years. You start sounding like Clinton. "It depends what 'is' is."

[moustache]

Quote by: fedfem And we all know we have proof Saddam had chemical weapons----NOT!

I responded to this statement with this:

Quote by: moustache Actually we do have proof that Saddam had nerve gas...

Fedfem then said this:

Quote by: Fedfem Show me. Last I heard no WMD have been found. I am sure we would have heard if there were.

I then responded with this...

Quote by: moustache VX gas has been verified since the attack on the "pharmaceutical" company took place. Mr. Hussein used VX in an attack on the Kurdish town of Halabja which supposedly killed 5,000.

VX gas has been verified since the attack on the "pharmaceutical" company took place.<-----This statement Is true.

Mr. Hussein used VX in an attack on the Kurdish town of Halabja which supposedly killed 5,000<-----This statement was my example of where Saddam had VX gas.

I was not linking these two statements...only proving that saddam had the gas, and that it has been proved that saddam had nerve gas after the bombing of the "pharmaceutical" company.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: The Analog Kid So as you attack and criticise the Bush administration for corruption and crime, I'd suggest that you, as an apparrant proponent of world government and world governing bodies, begin to examine the institution in which you seem to put all your faith in.

The U.S., was an important part of every transaction made by Iraq. The U.S. knew exactly what was going on, and if they didn't, it was because they didn't want to.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: The Analog Kid His entire portrayal of the events that occurred in SE Asia are just delusional.

Again, you have no evidence of that or you'd bring it.

[RickSp]

Quote by: moustache I was not linking these two statements...only proving that saddam had the gas, and that it has been proved that saddam had nerve gas after the bombing of the "pharmaceutical" company.

Wait a minute. You referred to a 1988 attack on the Kurds to prove he had poison gas, then claimed that Saddam had nerve gas after the Clinton bombing of the El-Shifa plant ten years later in 1998? Yes, the two statements are obviously unrelated and the second is questionable at best. Saddam's stock of gas was destroyed in the early 90s.

Get over it. Saddam had no stockpiled WMDs in the runup to our invasion.

[moustache]

Quote by: RickSp You referred to a 1988 attack on the Kurds to prove he had poison gas

correct

Quote by: RickSp then claimed that Saddam had nerve gas after the Clinton bombing of the El-Shifa plant ten years later in 1998?

yes, I believe saddam had the nerve gas provided to him by the El-Shifa plant.

Quote by: RickSp Saddam's stock of gas was destroyed in the early 90s.

Yet clinton finds traces of Nerve Gas outside of the El-Shifa plant in 1998...

Quote by: RickSp Get over it. Saddam had no stockpiled WMDs in the runup to our invasion.

maybe Saddam didnt have stockpiles and stockpiles of WMD's but he did have weapons.

some information: evidence of WMD programs in Iraq..

A clandestine network of laboratories and safehouses within the Iraqi Intelligence Service that contained equipment subject to UN monitoring and suitable for continuing CBW research.

A prison laboratory complex, possibly used in human testing of BW agents, that Iraqi officials working to prepare for UN inspections were explicitly ordered not to declare to the UN.

Reference strains of biological organisms concealed in a scientist's home, one of which can be used to produce biological weapons.

New research on BW-applicable agents, Brucella and Congo Crimean Hemorrhagic Fever (CCHF), and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin were not declared to the UN.

Documents and equipment, hidden in scientists' homes, that would have been useful in resuming uranium enrichment by centrifuge and electromagnetic isotope separation (EMIS).

A line of UAVs not fully declared at an undeclared production facility and an admission that they had tested one of their declared UAVs out to a range of 500 km, 350 km beyond the permissible limit.

Continuing covert capability to manufacture fuel propellant useful only for prohibited SCUD variant missiles, a capability that was maintained at least until the end of 2001 and that cooperating Iraqi scientists have said they were told to conceal from the UN.

Plans and advanced design work for new long-range missiles with ranges up to at least 1000 km -- well beyond the 150 km range limit imposed by the UN. Missiles of a 1000 km range would have allowed Iraq to threaten targets through out the Middle East, including Ankara, Cairo, and Abu Dhabi.

Clandestine attempts between late-1999 and 2002 to obtain from North Korea technology related to 1,300 km range ballistic missiles --probably the No Dong -- 300 km range anti-ship cruise missiles, and other prohibited military equipment.

In addition to the discovery of extensive concealment efforts, we have been faced with a systematic sanitization of documentary and computer evidence in a wide range of offices, laboratories, and companies suspected of WMD work. The pattern of these efforts to erase evidence -- hard drives destroyed, specific files burned, equipment cleaned of all traces of use --

...from a weapons report by David Kay

[Gorgo]

Quote by: moustache maybe Saddam didnt have stockpiles and stockpiles of WMD's but he did have weapons.

Imagine a government having weapons. Evil incarnate.

[RickSp]

You guys are getting to be a running joke.

Quote by: moustache yes, I believe saddam had the nerve gas provided to him by the El-Shifa plant. Yet clinton finds traces of Nerve Gas outside of the El-Shifa plant in 1998...

Lacking any evidence you assert that Saddam acquired Somali nerve gas. Great. And no, read the damned article. The chemicals found can also be residues from fertilizer production among several other things. It was not necessarily nerve gas, except for those grapsing at straws.

Quote by: moustache maybe Saddam didnt have stockpiles and stockpiles of WMD's but he did have weapons....

Sure Saddam had weapons. Hundreds of thousands of tons of weapons. And what did the Bush administration do? With no real planning for the occupation it left huge Iraqi weapons stock piles unguarded. Sure enough they were looted. 250,000 tons of wepaons and high explosives are unaccounted for. The insurgent have them and are using them to kill Americans among others. George Bush effectively turned over a huge arsenal to the insurgents and terrorists. Hell of a way to fight terrorism. The miltiary equivalent of giving Viagra to sex-offenders.

You provide considerable old and not particularly useful information from David Kay. You missed the one important quote however:

David Kay testifying before the Senate Armed Services Committe 1/28/04

Let me begin by saying, we were almost all wrong, and I certainly include myself here.

I would suggest that those neo-cons still ranting about WMD are like Dr. Kay, almost all wrong. It is a pity that unlike Dr. Kay, they lack the wit or integrity to admit it.

[moustache]

Quote by: RickSp The chemicals found can also be residues from fertilizer production among several other things.

Not true. the residues are SIMILAR to chemicals found in fertilizer's but not the same. They were traces left from VX gas.

Quote by: RickSp Sure Saddam had weapons. Hundreds of thousands of tons of weapons. And what did the Bush administration do? With no real planning for the occupation it left huge Iraqi weapons stock piles unguarded. Sure enough they were looted. 250,000 tons of wepaons and high explosives are unaccounted for. The insurgent have them and are using them to kill Americans among others. George Bush effectively turned over a huge arsenal to the insurgents and terrorists. Hell of a way to fight terrorism. The miltiary equivalent of giving Viagra to sex-offenders.

Well, I have to agree with you that we could have had more planning. But I was only responding to the statement you put up, the statement that no weapons were held by saddam before the invasion.

Quote by: RickSp Quote: Let me begin by saying, we were almost all wrong, and I certainly include myself here.

I am aware that David Kay went over to the other side. But the fact is the statements that he put out were true at the time, as they remain true today.

Look, we dont have to get into a debate about wether Iraq had WMD's... Obviously we are not going to agree.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: moustache Look, we dont have to get into a debate about wether Iraq had WMD's

Of course we don't. They didn't. Even if they did, it was a crime to attack the people of Iraq.

[moustache]

Quote by: Gorgo Even if they did, it was a crime to attack the people of Iraq.

attacking them was the right thing to do. you also used to be able to be sued for saving someones life before the good samaritan law came into effect.

[grandpa]

Quote by: moustache attacking them was the right thing to do. you also used to be able to be sued for saving someones life before the good samaritan law came into effect.

Good samaritans don't attack innocent people along with the guilty.

Grandpa h.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Quote by: grandpa Good samaritans don't attack innocent people along with the guilty. Grandpa h.

War is messy, if it was innocent people that the Anti-War types were really all about, then we would have seen them in the streets demanding Saddam Surrender not against America taking him out.


But we all know that the innocent of Iraq are nothing mreo then a football for the likes of Chomsky to punt for their little games of hate america rhetoric.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio demanding Saddam Surrender not against America taking him out.

The government of Iraq knuckled under to the pressure and allowed the inspectors in. (not that it would have taken much pressure) He listened to people like Scott Ritter who said, avoid war, do what is requested of you, and the sensible people of the world will not allow you to be attacked. The government of Iraq did everything they were supposed to do. And as we heard from GWB, the murderous attack would still have happened if Saddam Hussein surrendered, or left the country or did anything at all because Bush and his extremist supporters wanted murder.