Noam Chomsky, Hero or Zero?

[Gorgo]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio He speaks out against US support of Dictators, yet praises dictators that are against America.

Again, show me.

[Mr.Vicchio]

I have before, you chose to ignore the evidence. I showed the trial of Chomsky heaping praise on Pol Pot's regime and his later revisions of that after public outcry threatened his plush position in the ivory towers.

You believed the spin from him and his appologist AFTER the fact.

[Gorgo]

Again, your nonsense and lies were debunked.

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/jamesd.html

[The Analog Kid]

You are obviously generalizing when you talk about American ethics and genius.

Of course I am generalizing but the facts remain the facts. This is a great nation because of many of these ingredients.

There is plenty of unethical things (like our militarism) and stupid things (like our militarism).

This nation has always been militaristic.

And our constitution isn't a document our government always respects, either.

Hey, I agree with you on that.

And they had every right to be neutral, just like any country had the right to be neutral and not allow for either of the World Wars to take place (an important thing to consider, seeing as to how WWII was heavily linked to the first one).

Oh, they had every right to be neutral. It's the morality of remaining a neutral country when they knew what was happening.

But the government is what I'm criticizing, and a country is primarily a government in which people try to enforce their values upon others.

And our federal government is too big, too bloated and in far too many issues where it shouldn't be in.
I realize that this nation has made it's share of mistakes, to me that isn't the point.
I can realize this nations mistakes while realizing all the wonderful things it has done for the world and the great nation of people that built it and make it go.
It seems to me that leftists don't want to realize any positives but solely focus on negatives and negativity, and usually will believe the worst in America rather than the best.
I find that disturbing.

I'd be able to better pursue my dreams without the arbitrary burdens of coercive capitalism, actually.

Coercive capitalism? You are being forced to work and take part in the economy?
Who is forcing you? What is your alternative?

If there was no risk of me getting evicted, for example, I'd have a lot better chance at succeeding.

If you have a job, pay your bills, and put a little away each paycheck, you have no worry of being evicted.

Nobody had to support Saddam Hussein, especially when it did not benefit anybody other than Saddam and US corporations.

Well, I disagree. At the time we thought that Iran needed a regional competitor to keep them in check.
Many of the events concerning the ME were just sub-entanglements between the Soviets and the US. It's clear what the Soviets wanted, we were not going to allow that to happen and I am pleased that we did what we could to stop the Soviets.
We did what we thought was the right thing at the time.

The US was also very heavily involved in the scandal. In reality,

Whether or not it was is irrelivant as we didn't let it get in the way of doing the right thing.

France probably didn't support the Iraq War because French people would have probably just rioted against such a decision to try and shut their government down.

Their huge Islamic population has become a problem for them, that is certain. However, many french officials and good friends of french officials stood to gain a lot by keeping Saddam in power.

[Gorgo]

It seems that rightists always complain about everything that happens in the U.S. like women's rights and and freedom of speech and the Constitution, but they never say anything positive about the United States.

[Gorgo]

Are you going to back up your accusations about Chomsky, Analog, or are you going to apologize?

[Gorgo]

At least Vicchio supplies sources who obviously lie, you don't even do that much Analog.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Quote by: Gorgo At least Vicchio supplies sources who obviously lie, you don't even do that much Analog.

The lies you calim are truth to those not blinded by the rhetoric of your beliefs Gorgo, but hey like they say;

"You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink"

[Gorgo]

Quote by: The Analog Kid His support of the Communists in Vietnam is well documented. Of course, you just dismiss it.

His support of the people of Vietnam and acknowledgment of U.S. aggression in Vietnam is well-documented. Not sure what you're trying to imply beyond that. Or maybe you support the murder of millions of people and the destruction of thousands of square miles of land?

[Gorgo]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio The lies you calim are truth to those not blinded by the rhetoric of your beliefs Gorgo, but hey like they say;

You post something from some person on the internet who cares not about reality and expect me to respect that? Chomsky has a whole section on the zmag website and at least one other web site with a vast archive of his work, and you find some nut who's found some hard to find remark that supposedly says that Ed Herman and Noam Chomsky say that someone else says that Pol Pot probably didn't murder as many people as some say, and you see that as "support" for Pol Pot, while Chomsky condemns U.S. support of Pol Pot?

Why do they continue to allow you on these forums?

Maybe once we could get something of substance from you? Is that too much to hope?

[Mr.Vicchio]

So Chomsky has a library of work, so does David Horowitz, he has a a goodly number of Books out there, his own web site...

Rush Limbaugh does as well.

Sean Hannity too, and Ann Coulter, and Bill O'Rielly and Jesus has the number one most published book in the world...

Yet you hate and ignore all of them.

So your arguement in support of Chomsky, is faulty logic. I expected better of you, but if you want to make it easy on me to thrash you, by all means, hand me the ammo.

[Gorgo]

You totally misunderstood my point, or more likely, you are purposely twisting what I said to deflect attention away from your own blunders. I don't care how much Chomsky has written, that's not my point.

I wrote a long sentence that may have been hard to understand, so let me restate what's happened here. You have no idea what you're talking about so you do a quick google search and find some person who's made up a lot of stuff about Chomsky. One of the things that you assert is that Chomsky supported Pol Pot. How did he support Pol Pot? By condemning U.S. bombing of Cambodia, and then diverting the attention away from their crimes by saying that Pol Pot killed millions. That's your problem with Chomsky. Then you go so far as to say that he supports Pol Pot because some people that Chomsky AND Herman cite say that Pol Pot probably only murdered thousands, not millions. If saying one murdered thousands of people is support, I don't understand what language you're using.

I don't hate anyone. I just don't understand why you hate life so much. Every word out of your computer shows that you're consumed by this hatred.

[Mr.Vicchio]

I do a google search to find other-then my normal sources, which I know are biased.

You use a website which has for it's big claim to fame, a large Chomsky library and Chomsky.info.


I love how you are now, as a typical leftist trying to accuse me of "hate".

Lefty playbook 101.

1. Lay out your points, show how smart you are.

2. Ignore anything someone else brings to the debate as lies, and inadmissable evidence/proof/logic

3. Try to change the subject

4. If the above doesn't work accuse person of "hate"

5. Remove them from the venue as "not having anything to contribute"

[Gorgo]

Again, do you have anything to back up your lies? Otherwise, go away.

[Lou Minotti]

Sean Hannity too, and Ann Coulter, and Bill O'Rielly and Jesus

Could this be any sillier? You are equating these people with Chomsky? (also, Jesus had nothing to do with the Bible). I've read all of these people's work. Hannity? Crap. Coulter? Crap would be a compliment. O'Rielly? Are you joking? There are legitimate beefs against Chomksy. But you don't seem to know enough about him to articulate what they are (besides what Hannity, Coulter and ORielly tell you, that is )

[Gorgo]

Quote by: Lou Minotti But you don't seem to know enough about him to articulate what they are

This is the crux of it. People like Horowitz just feed off people like Vicchio and feed them with his bullshit. They don't know anything about what Chomsky is about.

Now, I asked Chomsky about something that I thought was wrong that he said, and I've noticed he doesn't say it anymore. Don't know if it had anything to do with me. He was quoting what someone meant instead of what he actually said, which I think is incorrect.

Chomsky is human. No one here thinks otherwise. The people who run the U.S. government are human. No one (except Vicchio) thinks otherwise. They all may have good intent. However, they are wrong on some points, and just plain criminal on some other points. I don't need Chomsky to tell me that, it's obvious, especially with poor actors such as GWB.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Quote by: Lou Minotti Could this be any sillier? You are equating these people with Chomsky? (also, Jesus had nothing to do with the Bible). I've read all of these people's work. Hannity? Crap. Coulter? Crap would be a compliment. O'Rielly? Are you joking? There are legitimate beefs against Chomksy. But you don't seem to know enough about him to articulate what they are (besides what Hannity, Coulter and ORielly tell you, that is )

I wasn't equating them, I was pointing out that anyone can play the game Gorgo was, and how silly it was to do so.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio I wasn't equating them, I was pointing out that anyone can play the game Gorgo was, and how silly it was to do so.

Yes, and still you don't acknowledge that this was the basis of misunderstanding. I never said that liars are not prolific. I said that you cannot back up your lies.

[grandpa]

Quote by: The Analog Kid Of course I am generalizing but the facts remain the facts. This is a great nation because of many of these ingredients. .

It is a great place to live only when its people question its government.

Quote by: The Analog Kid This nation has always been militaristic.

And it's foreign policy gets us involved in other people's problems and angers them at us. American civilians are now obviously hated because of our foreign policies.
That's not exactly what I'd call national security.

Quote by: The Analog Kid Oh, they had every right to be neutral. It's the morality of remaining a neutral country when they knew what was happening.

The world knew what was happening in Germany, and the world should have predicted that the Treaty of versailles would lead to disaster.
The only thing that could have prevented WWII was if Germany wasn't so harshly punished and if Germans weren't so subservient to their own government.
A few neutral countries here and there wouldn't have made much of a difference, really.

Quote by: The Analog Kid And our federal government is too big, too bloated and in far too many issues where it shouldn't be in. I realize that this nation has made it's share of mistakes, to me that isn't the point. I can realize this nations mistakes while realizing all the wonderful things it has done for the world and the great nation of people that built it and make it go.

Our globalization is rarely a wonderful thing.
It's mostly a cheap labor thing.

Quote by: The Analog Kid It seems to me that leftists don't want to realize any positives but solely focus on negatives and negativity, and usually will believe the worst in America rather than the best. I find that disturbing.

I find that understandable. It's a dog-eat-dog world.
What do you expect? Is everyone supposed to just smile and say everything is wonderful when life's one big, huge lie after another? Certainly not everyone is that gullible.

Quote by: The Analog Kid Coercive capitalism? You are being forced to work and take part in the economy?

Yes.

Quote by: The Analog Kid Who is forcing you?

The government, corporations, the general public.
They are all ripping you and I off right now in some way, I guarantee you.
And if you don't work for somebody, you'll probably be thrown out on the street.
In this world most won't give a damn about you if you lack money.
That's not an exaggeration.
It's my general experience.
In this world you will probably either have the annoying experience of renting yourself to somebody or you'll face an artifial deprivation of resources.
Most people actually wouldn't be in poverty if it wasn't for official policies which punish people for not fitting societies mold.

Quote by: The Analog Kid What is your alternative?

First, it should not be the job of one person to plan everyone else's lives, which is what you are essentially asking me to do. So my personal "alternative" would be a society where people let each other live more freely, weren't as greedy and power-hungry. Most people I tell that to agree with me actually, but many are unwilling to see how capitalism gets in the way. I do believe in the legal system, however, I just regret how its used to create class distinctions.

Quote by: The Analog Kid If you have a job, pay your bills, and put a little away each paycheck, you have no worry of being evicted.

Quite simply, people wouldn't have to worry about being evicted if there was no one around willing to evict them.
It doesn't make you feel uncomfortable at all to be defending bill collectors?
Do you really think they are worth one iota of respect?
I personally do not.
What they do is provide you a service based on threats and of severe legal action. It's all about imtimidation, getting the upper hand.
Money is a tool for mental and social abuse.
Those without the money are, by law, inferior to those who do.

Quote by: The Analog Kid At the time we thought that Iran needed a regional competitor to keep them in check.

No one was kept in check--not Iran, Not Saddam and not the United States.
The ones being kept in check were the populations of all three countries.

Quote by: The Analog Kid Many of the events concerning the ME were just sub-entanglements between the Soviets and the US.

Of course they were. That doesn't mean anything other than a willingness on behalf of the Soviet Union and the United States to devastate Middle Eastern countries for political gain.

Quote by: The Analog Kid It's clear what the Soviets wanted, we were not going to allow that to happen and I am pleased that we did what we could to stop the Soviets.

We also did what we could to devastate Afghanistan and support Muslim extremists there. Personally, I highly doubt Afghanistan would have been any worse had the Soviets taken over the place.

Quote by: The Analog Kid We did what we thought was the right thing at the time.

Any criminal could say that. That defense wouldn't stand up in any court, or in any argument. I think almost everyone does what they think is the right thing.
The point is, we were wrong and in a just society some in our government should have paid a legal penalty for such mistakes.

Quote by: The Analog Kid Their huge Islamic population has become a problem for them, that is certain. However, many french officials and good friends of french officials stood to gain a lot by keeping Saddam in power.

I think France didn't join the war mostly because it could have had a domino effect involving their own population. They might have actually had riots in the streets, and not just by Muslims.

Grandpa h.