Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

dotcoma · Mar 9, 2004, 11:33 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (gecko,)
its amazing how quotes are supposed to make things true

you know what? what freedoms have you actually lost?

if i want a gun i can own one

if i want to protest i can

the only time it might appear that your freedoms arent being respected is if you are breaking the law

as for privacy? well who cares what you are doing?

the people getting surveyed (serveilled?) are usually trashy people to begin with
drug dealers, illegal immigrants, and others<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Hitler youth in action...

Red_Emma · Mar 9, 2004, 11:39 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (roxdog,)
Your scripted responses are typical and melodramatic. Let me guess, you grew up in the United States...<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

This isnt only true of United States citizens...also with each and every president its obvious that they are scripted and if they get off of their cards they simply mess up....each one is painted to appeal to the public with characteristics that will be most pleasing to the majority of people that election year....(ok so it didnt sound as charming as Noam Chomsky put it....but he practically said the same thing and talked about this topic on a Interview i saw on FSTV for a radio show..im not sure what it was called but it was based out of Colorado....just incase anyone wants to check into it farther

)

dotcoma · Mar 9, 2004, 12:27 pm

I understand that it's not just the U.S. But the U.S. media does the greatest job of not just suppressing the truth, but controlling the way it is disseminated and polarizing the opposition so that both sides fail to see the real picture. Be careful of Chomsky. His analysis are insightful but he thinks Europe is the model social structure. He's an advocate for gun control and big government.

momo · Mar 9, 2004, 01:34 pm

"Be careful of Chomsky. His analysis are insightful but he thinks Europe is the model. He's an advocate for gun control and big government."

what are you talking about ?? We must not be thinking of the same man

dotcoma · Mar 9, 2004, 01:52 pm

Ummm, I'm talking about Noam Chomsky, prof. of linguistic at MIT....'Manufactured Consent', 'Corporate Propaganda and the Public Mind', etc....

Mia · Mar 9, 2004, 03:57 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (gecko,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mia,)
I see. Insults are used to fill space meant for useful information or argument.

We have enough security. It wasn't used properly to prevent 9/11.

"Patriot Act 2 Offers A False Solution, a Less Safe Nation

Our system’s checks and balances not only ensure that the government does not violate the rights of law-abiding citizens, they also help maintain the legitimacy of law enforcement. Actions viewed as arbitrary, capricious or improper sow the seeds of mistrust among communities that might otherwise cooperate with authorities. Limits also force the government to use their limited resources more wisely – that is, pursuing real criminals using proven investigative techniques.

The bitter irony is that the Patriot Act 2 could make our nation more vulnerable to terrorism, a view held by many experts:

As Coleen Rowley – the FBI special agent named by Time Magazine as a person of the year for blowing the whistle on pre 9/11 intelligence failures – observed in a letter to Director Robert Mueller:

The vast majority of the one thousand plus persons "detained" in the wake of 9-11 did not turn out to be terrorists. . . . [A]fter 9-11, headquarters encouraged more and more detentions for what seem to be essentially PR purposes. Field offices were required to report daily the number of detentions in order to supply grist for statements on our progress in fighting terrorism.[2]

In late 2001 senior intelligence specialists wrote that the use of racial profiling and other investigative techniques that intrude on civil liberties could undermine security by distracting security officials from less clumsy and more reliable forms of individual suspicion.[3]<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

blahb blah blah

you bring up how security failed to prevent 9/11
\im glad you brought this up
people like you only see when the sytem fails you dont relize how many things (attacks/terrosits/whatever) ARE stopped by our "flawed" security

do you wear seatbelts? no one notices seatbelts until that one time they are in a crash and it saves their lives

or your roof? when was the last time you said, im glad i have a roof!
you are so used to being protected you dont know what it would be like without it<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

As usual, you missed the point and went on an idiotic rant instead of responding to it. My point was that it wasn't a lack of security sources and techniques that led to the 9/11 attacks. It was error within the department.

Therefore, it is not necessary or desireable to give them MORE power and us LESS freedom to be more secure.

Mia · Mar 9, 2004, 04:03 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (roxdog,)
I understand that it's not just the U.S. But the U.S. media does the greatest job of not just suppressing the truth, but controlling the way it is disseminated and polarizing the opposition so that both sides fail to see the real picture. Be careful of Chomsky. His analysis are insightful but he thinks Europe is the model social structure. He's an advocate for gun control and big government.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I don't think the US media can possibly suppress the truth as much as countries with, say, no free press.

Mia · Mar 9, 2004, 04:05 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Zeebadee,)

My problem isn't with what the Patriot Act is now, but what it will become in the future. Politicians have always, unceasingly worked to increase their power. The power to declare someone a combatant, without presenting any shred of evidence is just too much to give to anyone. Power corrupts....<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Take a look at the Patriot Act II they'd like to pass.

dotcoma · Mar 9, 2004, 06:11 pm

Provisions of it have already passed...

Mia · Mar 9, 2004, 09:02 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (roxdog,)
Provisions of it have already passed...<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Even better.

gecko · Mar 9, 2004, 09:50 pm

i like now no one ever shares their aim or yahoo messenger names

gecko · Mar 9, 2004, 09:51 pm

idiotic? this from the child who didnt comprehend what nation was roused> you are like what? 16?

Zeebadee · Mar 9, 2004, 10:28 pm

Well, it's certainly hard to argue with those two posts.

Mia · Mar 10, 2004, 03:40 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Zeebadee,)
Well, it's certainly hard to argue with those two posts.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Thanks

Mia · Mar 10, 2004, 05:09 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (gecko,)
idiotic? this from the child who didnt comprehend what nation was roused> you are like what? 16?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

OK - show your vast intelligence. Give me an argument why we need all the provisions of the Patriot Act and show me it won't ever viloate the rights of ordinary citizens.

Mia · Apr 9, 2004, 07:09 am

iejeoi

Apr 9, 2004, 12:53 pm

This topic is a load. There was footage of the first tower burning and I'm sure that's what Bush was talking about. Since there would be nothing he could do, at that time, why sould he run out of the classroom without finishing what he had scheduled there. If he thought, as we all did, that it was simply an accident, he could finish with the kids and then head to NYC. Actually, this is the first time I've heard of Bush saying he saw anything on TV while in Florida and I'd have to find verification before I believe it's an accurate quote.

dotcoma · Apr 9, 2004, 12:58 pm

He said he saw the first plane hit.

Apr 9, 2004, 07:05 pm

Oh well, in that case I suppose we should surrender to the Taliban, return Saddam to his Iraq throne, pay reperations to Afghanistan and everyone else who asks for it, and go out and buy Turbans or Burhkas. W and his entire family should be hanged from the Washington monument and we should all drive our cars into the ocean and walk home. Would this be enough to compensate for W horrendous lie?

dotcoma · Apr 9, 2004, 07:23 pm

This lie is a cherry on a mountain of other lies.

Mar 9, 2004, 11:33 am	#161 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (gecko,) its amazing how quotes are supposed to make things true you know what? what freedoms have you actually lost? if i want a gun i can own one if i want to protest i can the only time it might appear that your freedoms arent being respected is if you are breaking the law as for privacy? well who cares what you are doing? the people getting surveyed (serveilled?) are usually trashy people to begin with drug dealers, illegal immigrants, and others<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Hitler youth in action...

Mar 9, 2004, 11:39 am	#162 (permalink) (top)
Red_Emma P//E Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana Posts: 39	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (roxdog,) Your scripted responses are typical and melodramatic. Let me guess, you grew up in the United States...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> This isnt only true of United States citizens...also with each and every president its obvious that they are scripted and if they get off of their cards they simply mess up....each one is painted to appeal to the public with characteristics that will be most pleasing to the majority of people that election year....(ok so it didnt sound as charming as Noam Chomsky put it....but he practically said the same thing and talked about this topic on a Interview i saw on FSTV for a radio show..im not sure what it was called but it was based out of Colorado....just incase anyone wants to check into it farther )

Mar 9, 2004, 03:57 pm	#166 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (gecko,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mia,) I see. Insults are used to fill space meant for useful information or argument. We have enough security. It wasn't used properly to prevent 9/11. "Patriot Act 2 Offers A False Solution, a Less Safe Nation Our system’s checks and balances not only ensure that the government does not violate the rights of law-abiding citizens, they also help maintain the legitimacy of law enforcement. Actions viewed as arbitrary, capricious or improper sow the seeds of mistrust among communities that might otherwise cooperate with authorities. Limits also force the government to use their limited resources more wisely – that is, pursuing real criminals using proven investigative techniques. The bitter irony is that the Patriot Act 2 could make our nation more vulnerable to terrorism, a view held by many experts: As Coleen Rowley – the FBI special agent named by Time Magazine as a person of the year for blowing the whistle on pre 9/11 intelligence failures – observed in a letter to Director Robert Mueller: The vast majority of the one thousand plus persons "detained" in the wake of 9-11 did not turn out to be terrorists. . . . [A]fter 9-11, headquarters encouraged more and more detentions for what seem to be essentially PR purposes. Field offices were required to report daily the number of detentions in order to supply grist for statements on our progress in fighting terrorism.[2] In late 2001 senior intelligence specialists wrote that the use of racial profiling and other investigative techniques that intrude on civil liberties could undermine security by distracting security officials from less clumsy and more reliable forms of individual suspicion.[3]<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> blahb blah blah you bring up how security failed to prevent 9/11 \im glad you brought this up people like you only see when the sytem fails you dont relize how many things (attacks/terrosits/whatever) ARE stopped by our "flawed" security do you wear seatbelts? no one notices seatbelts until that one time they are in a crash and it saves their lives or your roof? when was the last time you said, im glad i have a roof! you are so used to being protected you dont know what it would be like without it<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> As usual, you missed the point and went on an idiotic rant instead of responding to it. My point was that it wasn't a lack of security sources and techniques that led to the 9/11 attacks. It was error within the department. Therefore, it is not necessary or desireable to give them MORE power and us LESS freedom to be more secure. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 9, 2004, 04:03 pm	#167 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (roxdog,) I understand that it's not just the U.S. But the U.S. media does the greatest job of not just suppressing the truth, but controlling the way it is disseminated and polarizing the opposition so that both sides fail to see the real picture. Be careful of Chomsky. His analysis are insightful but he thinks Europe is the model social structure. He's an advocate for gun control and big government.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I don't think the US media can possibly suppress the truth as much as countries with, say, no free press. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 9, 2004, 04:05 pm	#168 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Zeebadee,) My problem isn't with what the Patriot Act is now, but what it will become in the future. Politicians have always, unceasingly worked to increase their power. The power to declare someone a combatant, without presenting any shred of evidence is just too much to give to anyone. Power corrupts....<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Take a look at the Patriot Act II they'd like to pass. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 9, 2004, 12:27 pm	#163 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	I understand that it's not just the U.S. But the U.S. media does the greatest job of not just suppressing the truth, but controlling the way it is disseminated and polarizing the opposition so that both sides fail to see the real picture. Be careful of Chomsky. His analysis are insightful but he thinks Europe is the model social structure. He's an advocate for gun control and big government.

Mar 9, 2004, 01:34 pm	#164 (permalink) (top)
momo Sedimentary Rock Location: Montreal, for now Posts: 11	"Be careful of Chomsky. His analysis are insightful but he thinks Europe is the model. He's an advocate for gun control and big government." what are you talking about ?? We must not be thinking of the same man

Mar 9, 2004, 01:52 pm	#165 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	Ummm, I'm talking about Noam Chomsky, prof. of linguistic at MIT....'Manufactured Consent', 'Corporate Propaganda and the Public Mind', etc....

Mar 9, 2004, 06:11 pm	#169 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	Provisions of it have already passed...

Mar 9, 2004, 09:02 pm	#170 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (roxdog,) Provisions of it have already passed...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Even better. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 9, 2004, 09:50 pm	#171 (permalink) (top)
gecko Molten Ash Posts: 70	i like now no one ever shares their aim or yahoo messenger names

Mar 9, 2004, 09:51 pm	#172 (permalink) (top)
gecko Molten Ash Posts: 70	idiotic? this from the child who didnt comprehend what nation was roused> you are like what? 16?

Mar 9, 2004, 10:28 pm	#173 (permalink) (top)
Zeebadee Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,773	Well, it's certainly hard to argue with those two posts. "Everybody knows that the boat is leaking Everybody knows that the captain lied." - Leonard Cohen

Mar 10, 2004, 03:40 am	#174 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Zeebadee,) Well, it's certainly hard to argue with those two posts.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Thanks "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 10, 2004, 05:09 am	#175 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (gecko,) idiotic? this from the child who didnt comprehend what nation was roused> you are like what? 16?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> OK - show your vast intelligence. Give me an argument why we need all the provisions of the Patriot Act and show me it won't ever viloate the rights of ordinary citizens. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Apr 9, 2004, 07:09 am	#176 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	iejeoi "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Apr 9, 2004, 12:53 pm	#177 (permalink) (top)
dave654 Guest Posts: n/a	This topic is a load. There was footage of the first tower burning and I'm sure that's what Bush was talking about. Since there would be nothing he could do, at that time, why sould he run out of the classroom without finishing what he had scheduled there. If he thought, as we all did, that it was simply an accident, he could finish with the kids and then head to NYC. Actually, this is the first time I've heard of Bush saying he saw anything on TV while in Florida and I'd have to find verification before I believe it's an accurate quote.

Apr 9, 2004, 12:58 pm	#178 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	He said he saw the first plane hit.

Apr 9, 2004, 07:05 pm	#179 (permalink) (top)
dave654 Guest Posts: n/a	Oh well, in that case I suppose we should surrender to the Taliban, return Saddam to his Iraq throne, pay reperations to Afghanistan and everyone else who asks for it, and go out and buy Turbans or Burhkas. W and his entire family should be hanged from the Washington monument and we should all drive our cars into the ocean and walk home. Would this be enough to compensate for W horrendous lie?

Apr 9, 2004, 07:23 pm	#180 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	This lie is a cherry on a mountain of other lies.