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dotcoma · Mar 7, 2004, 06:34 pm

You might try and think about the fact that the Patriot Act is more than a list of do's and don't. It is the legislation that gives the FEDS the power to do whatever they want in the name of "preventing terrorism." Rubber stamp warrents, nationwide, random wire tapping, all the fun stuff that freedom-lovers have dreamed of for years.

Impenitent · Mar 7, 2004, 06:54 pm

pretexts? no, they are the facts of the cases, not the patriot act... if nethercott was convicted and picked up for violating the patriot act where is the police blotter story?
sherman was charged under fienstein's law, not the patriot act...

name ONE

dotcoma · Mar 7, 2004, 07:06 pm

People don't get charged with "violation of the patriot act". Read the above post....

Mia · Mar 7, 2004, 07:11 pm

The Patriot Act is not a law you break and get charged with. It gives more and secret powers to law enforcement.

If you honestly can't see that it won't only be used against terrorists, I don't see how to explain it to you.

Our court system is set up to protect us against police as well as anything else. They and procecuters are constantly breaking rules to get convictions. With no open court with the customary rules, who will keep them in check?

dotcoma · Mar 7, 2004, 07:22 pm

http://www.delawareonline.com/newsjo...tacthasun.html

http://www.casperstartribune.net/art...2ce550a758.txt

www.counterpunch.org/mariner03082003.html

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3032658/

http://www.lp.org/press/archive.php?...iew&record=632

http://cgi.citizen-times.com/cgi-bin/story...editorial/28714

http://www.vanderbiltorbis.com/vnews/displ...6/3e5c2821127aa

http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/lewis.html

Zeebadee · Mar 8, 2004, 11:40 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
name one person whose rights have been stripped away with the patriot act? name ONE...<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Ok, how about Jose Padilla? He's an American citizen that's been locked up without any evidence, charges, access to legal counsel, etc. for almost two years now. The government has already admitted that it doesn't even intend to charge him with anything in the forseeable future.

Impenitent · Mar 8, 2004, 01:13 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (roxdog,)
People don't get charged with "violation of the patriot act". <hr size="1" /></blockquote>

thank you for your concession

Impenitent · Mar 8, 2004, 01:15 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mia,)
The Patriot Act is not a law you break and get charged with. It gives more and secret powers to law enforcement.

If you honestly can't see that it won't only be used against terrorists, I don't see how to explain it to you.

Our court system is set up to protect us against police as well as anything else. They and procecuters are constantly breaking rules to get convictions. With no open court with the customary rules, who will keep them in check?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

that's exactly why we have the second ammendment...

if you really think the state is oppressing you, revolt!

Impenitent · Mar 8, 2004, 01:20 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Zeebadee,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
name one person whose rights have been stripped away with the patriot act? name ONE...<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Ok, how about Jose Padilla? He's an American citizen that's been locked up without any evidence, charges, access to legal counsel, etc. for almost two years now. The government has already admitted that it doesn't even intend to charge him with anything in the forseeable future.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

he has a lawyer

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/06/11/dirty.bomb.suspect/

and no, it wasn't under the patriot act, padilla's arrest was as an enemy combatant

dotcoma · Mar 8, 2004, 01:44 pm

He has a lawyer NOW (after a year or so). But i'll say it again, you don't get arrested "under the patriot act". And by the way, guess what defines an enemy combatant in sec 802 of it's text?

dotcoma · Mar 8, 2004, 01:49 pm

USA PATRIOT Act

• Allows surveillance and criminal prosecution of political groups and activists who oppose government policies.

• Permits the Attorney General to incarcerate or detain noncitizens based on mere suspicion, and to deny noncitizens (including permanent residents) readmission to the U.S. for engaging in speech protected by the First Amendment.

• Expands the permissible use of secret searches of homes and offices; of telephone and Internet wiretap; and of subpoenas to obtain medical, financial, mental health, library, and student records.

• Allows surveillance for "suspicion" or "intelligence purposes," undermining the Fourth Amendment standard of "probable cause" that a crime has been or will be committed.
Source: War Times Magazine (www.war-times.org)

One of the most dangerous situations was the case of Jose Pedilla, a U.S. citizen whom President Bush designated an "enemy combatant" and threw into military detention indefinitely, without due process, a trial, or even formal charges.
http://www.afsc.org/community/vision/april...n_terrorism.htm

Impenitent · Mar 8, 2004, 01:53 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (roxdog,)
He has a lawyer NOW (after a year or so). But i'll say it again, you don't get arrested "under the patriot act". And by the way, guess what defines an enemy combatant in sec 802 of it's text?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

now? look at the date of the story

dotcoma · Mar 8, 2004, 02:05 pm

He "had" a lawyer arguing for him to be released at the time this article was written. He was only allowed access to a lawyer recently.

Impenitent · Mar 8, 2004, 03:44 pm

he had and has lawyers... but he is an enemy combatant, not a criminal... :rolleyes: but I bet you want lawyers for every enemy combatant in cuba too

dotcoma · Mar 8, 2004, 03:52 pm

Wrong...

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20031216/D.../D7VFKGJ00.html

dotcoma · Mar 8, 2004, 04:07 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
but I bet you want lawyers for every enemy combatant in cuba too<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Oh, you mean the goat herders that have no idea what is going on. No, they should be treated in accord with the Geneva convention, not tortured to the point where the guy that's in charge in GITMO quits with almost ZERO media converage.

http://www.rediff.com/us/2002/feb/04ny.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s836988.htm

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap2003...030610_124.html

http://www.globalpolicy.org/wtc/analysis/2...003/0326gua.htm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,...1038845,00.html

Impenitent · Mar 8, 2004, 04:27 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (roxdog,)
Wrong...

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20031216/D.../D7VFKGJ00.html<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

wrong? read the story you posted "Jose Padilla, a U.S. citizen being held as an enemy combatant..."

held as what? an ENEMY COMBATANT... not a criminal...

right

dotcoma · Mar 8, 2004, 04:31 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
he had and has lawyers...<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

"WASHINGTON (AP) - Jose Padilla, a U.S. citizen being held as an enemy combatant in the war on terror, continues to provide valuable intelligence to the government and will not be allowed access to a lawyer until those collection efforts cease, officials said Tuesday."

Impenitent · Mar 8, 2004, 04:35 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (roxdog,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
but I bet you want lawyers for every enemy combatant in cuba too<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Oh, you mean the goat herders that have no idea what is going on. No, they should be treated in accord with the Geneva convention, not tortured to the point where the guy that's in charge in GITMO quits with almost ZERO media converage.

http://www.rediff.com/us/2002/feb/04ny.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s836988.htm

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap2003...030610_124.html

http://www.globalpolicy.org/wtc/analysis/2...003/0326gua.htm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,...1038845,00.html<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

almost zero coverage? abc will love that...

and what torture? there is no evidence of torture only false accusations...

Impenitent · Mar 8, 2004, 04:37 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (roxdog,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
he had and has lawyers...<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

"WASHINGTON (AP) - Jose Padilla, a U.S. citizen being held as an enemy combatant in the war on terror, continues to provide valuable intelligence to the government and will not be allowed access to a lawyer until those collection efforts cease, officials said Tuesday."<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

and so he is going to be treated as the other enemy combatants... good...

but there are still lawyers working on his behalf, how would you have known this information if there weren't?

Mar 7, 2004, 06:54 pm	#122 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	pretexts? no, they are the facts of the cases, not the patriot act... if nethercott was convicted and picked up for violating the patriot act where is the police blotter story? sherman was charged under fienstein's law, not the patriot act... name ONE "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Mar 7, 2004, 07:11 pm	#124 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	The Patriot Act is not a law you break and get charged with. It gives more and secret powers to law enforcement. If you honestly can't see that it won't only be used against terrorists, I don't see how to explain it to you. Our court system is set up to protect us against police as well as anything else. They and procecuters are constantly breaking rules to get convictions. With no open court with the customary rules, who will keep them in check? "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Mar 8, 2004, 11:40 am	#126 (permalink) (top)
Zeebadee Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,836	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) name one person whose rights have been stripped away with the patriot act? name ONE...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Ok, how about Jose Padilla? He's an American citizen that's been locked up without any evidence, charges, access to legal counsel, etc. for almost two years now. The government has already admitted that it doesn't even intend to charge him with anything in the forseeable future. "Everybody knows that the boat is leaking Everybody knows that the captain lied." - Leonard Cohen

Mar 8, 2004, 01:13 pm	#127 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (roxdog,) People don't get charged with "violation of the patriot act". <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> thank you for your concession "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Mar 8, 2004, 01:15 pm	#128 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Mia,) The Patriot Act is not a law you break and get charged with. It gives more and secret powers to law enforcement. If you honestly can't see that it won't only be used against terrorists, I don't see how to explain it to you. Our court system is set up to protect us against police as well as anything else. They and procecuters are constantly breaking rules to get convictions. With no open court with the customary rules, who will keep them in check?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> that's exactly why we have the second ammendment... if you really think the state is oppressing you, revolt! "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Mar 7, 2004, 06:34 pm	#121 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	You might try and think about the fact that the Patriot Act is more than a list of do's and don't. It is the legislation that gives the FEDS the power to do whatever they want in the name of "preventing terrorism." Rubber stamp warrents, nationwide, random wire tapping, all the fun stuff that freedom-lovers have dreamed of for years.

Mar 7, 2004, 07:06 pm	#123 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	People don't get charged with "violation of the patriot act". Read the above post....

Mar 7, 2004, 07:22 pm	#125 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	http://www.delawareonline.com/newsjo...tacthasun.html http://www.casperstartribune.net/art...2ce550a758.txt www.counterpunch.org/mariner03082003.html http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3032658/ http://www.lp.org/press/archive.php?...iew&record=632 http://cgi.citizen-times.com/cgi-bin/story...editorial/28714 http://www.vanderbiltorbis.com/vnews/displ...6/3e5c2821127aa http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/lewis.html

Mar 8, 2004, 01:20 pm	#129 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Zeebadee,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) name one person whose rights have been stripped away with the patriot act? name ONE...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Ok, how about Jose Padilla? He's an American citizen that's been locked up without any evidence, charges, access to legal counsel, etc. for almost two years now. The government has already admitted that it doesn't even intend to charge him with anything in the forseeable future.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> he has a lawyer http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/06/11/dirty.bomb.suspect/ and no, it wasn't under the patriot act, padilla's arrest was as an enemy combatant "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Mar 8, 2004, 01:44 pm	#130 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	He has a lawyer NOW (after a year or so). But i'll say it again, you don't get arrested "under the patriot act". And by the way, guess what defines an enemy combatant in sec 802 of it's text?

Mar 8, 2004, 01:49 pm	#131 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	USA PATRIOT Act • Allows surveillance and criminal prosecution of political groups and activists who oppose government policies. • Permits the Attorney General to incarcerate or detain noncitizens based on mere suspicion, and to deny noncitizens (including permanent residents) readmission to the U.S. for engaging in speech protected by the First Amendment. • Expands the permissible use of secret searches of homes and offices; of telephone and Internet wiretap; and of subpoenas to obtain medical, financial, mental health, library, and student records. • Allows surveillance for "suspicion" or "intelligence purposes," undermining the Fourth Amendment standard of "probable cause" that a crime has been or will be committed. Source: War Times Magazine (www.war-times.org) One of the most dangerous situations was the case of Jose Pedilla, a U.S. citizen whom President Bush designated an "enemy combatant" and threw into military detention indefinitely, without due process, a trial, or even formal charges. http://www.afsc.org/community/vision/april...n_terrorism.htm

Mar 8, 2004, 01:53 pm	#132 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (roxdog,) He has a lawyer NOW (after a year or so). But i'll say it again, you don't get arrested "under the patriot act". And by the way, guess what defines an enemy combatant in sec 802 of it's text?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> now? look at the date of the story "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Mar 8, 2004, 02:05 pm	#133 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	He "had" a lawyer arguing for him to be released at the time this article was written. He was only allowed access to a lawyer recently.

Mar 8, 2004, 03:44 pm	#134 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	he had and has lawyers... but he is an enemy combatant, not a criminal... :rolleyes: but I bet you want lawyers for every enemy combatant in cuba too "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Mar 8, 2004, 03:52 pm	#135 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	Wrong... http://apnews.myway.com/article/20031216/D.../D7VFKGJ00.html

Mar 8, 2004, 04:07 pm	#136 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) but I bet you want lawyers for every enemy combatant in cuba too<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Oh, you mean the goat herders that have no idea what is going on. No, they should be treated in accord with the Geneva convention, not tortured to the point where the guy that's in charge in GITMO quits with almost ZERO media converage. http://www.rediff.com/us/2002/feb/04ny.htm http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s836988.htm http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap2003...030610_124.html http://www.globalpolicy.org/wtc/analysis/2...003/0326gua.htm http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,...1038845,00.html

Mar 8, 2004, 04:27 pm	#137 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (roxdog,) Wrong... http://apnews.myway.com/article/20031216/D.../D7VFKGJ00.html<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> wrong? read the story you posted "Jose Padilla, a U.S. citizen being held as an enemy combatant..." held as what? an ENEMY COMBATANT... not a criminal... right "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Mar 8, 2004, 04:31 pm	#138 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) he had and has lawyers...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> "WASHINGTON (AP) - Jose Padilla, a U.S. citizen being held as an enemy combatant in the war on terror, continues to provide valuable intelligence to the government and will not be allowed access to a lawyer until those collection efforts cease, officials said Tuesday."

Mar 8, 2004, 04:35 pm	#139 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (roxdog,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) but I bet you want lawyers for every enemy combatant in cuba too<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Oh, you mean the goat herders that have no idea what is going on. No, they should be treated in accord with the Geneva convention, not tortured to the point where the guy that's in charge in GITMO quits with almost ZERO media converage. http://www.rediff.com/us/2002/feb/04ny.htm http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s836988.htm http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap2003...030610_124.html http://www.globalpolicy.org/wtc/analysis/2...003/0326gua.htm http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,...1038845,00.html<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> almost zero coverage? abc will love that... and what torture? there is no evidence of torture only false accusations... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Mar 8, 2004, 04:37 pm	#140 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (roxdog,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) he had and has lawyers...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> "WASHINGTON (AP) - Jose Padilla, a U.S. citizen being held as an enemy combatant in the war on terror, continues to provide valuable intelligence to the government and will not be allowed access to a lawyer until those collection efforts cease, officials said Tuesday."<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> and so he is going to be treated as the other enemy combatants... good... but there are still lawyers working on his behalf, how would you have known this information if there weren't? "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...