Only in the EU....

[Mr.Vicchio]

France and the Netherlands should re-run their referendums to obtain the "right answer" if their voters reject Europe's constitutional treaty in imminent national ballots, Jean-Claude Juncker, the holder of the EU presidency, said on Wednesday. The Luxembourg prime minister said all 25 EU member countries should continue their attempts to ratify the treaty whatever the outcome of the French and Dutch votes. His comments reflect a mood of deepening pessimism among Europe's leaders about the outcome of the referendums. http://news.ft.com/cms/s/3dd561b6-cd...00e2511c8.html

That first bold statement... WOW is all I can or will say. Arrogant bastard ain't he? How many time would the EU leadership demand re-votes if this fails as is predicted? What woudl they do if it became obvious that the voters won't ever give the "right" answer?


Could you imagine a US politician making such a statement and the hell he would pay for doing so?

[castille]

Well if they're so desperate to get the YES vote for the EU, they could always fake it like those African countries do.

[rmnunez]

The success of the EU is at stake in the vote for this constitution. The French authourship of the present draft is an issue, as are the commitments to fiscal restraint. The EU economy is in chronic trouble with excessive unemployment and social spending and they need reform here to remain competitive with other markets. Facing these facts or disputing them is the way the vote is going and it looks like a close call.

Received wisdom has it the French are the repositiories and inspiration for the EU project, though their focus is more at independence from the US than what prevails in other EU governmental policies, so French attitudes can't be the problem here. The EU economy is better than just competitive, even a more successful alternative which will prevail despite temporary setbacks due to enlargement now. Social spending is not excessive and can be maintained, exceptions can be made to earlier commitments to restraint, besides, this is what makes the EU model preferable. These are the views which call for a "yes" vote. People disputing these are traitors to the common EU goal, those who doubt French preeminence ignore their commitment to this goal and those questioning the social spending hemorrage are just neoliberals who want to sell European labor short.

[castille]

Well if the people oppose it, there's not much you can do about it.

Unless Europe reverts back to the monarchy system!

[belverron]

"'The countries which have said No will have to ask themselves the question again. And if we don't manage to find the right answer, the treaty will not enter into force,' he said in an interview with the Belgian Le Soir newspaper."

The statement is less strong in context than in the first sentence of the article. It looks like it was mainly just a hook to incite the initial reaction that you displayed, Mr.V.

[castille]

Quote by: belverron 'The countries which have said No will have to ask themselves the question again.'

Well if they said no the first time, why would they say yes the second time?

[rmnunez]

Would it be "proper" in a formal democracy for the electorate to be told to vote again if they failed to cast their ballots for the outcome favored by those demanding a revote? What would be the effect in Blair's recent re-election if the conservatives and others in Britain called for another election since they disagreed with him getting another term, how about in the US after Bush´s reelection?

[belverron]

Quote by: castille Well if they said no the first time, why would they say yes the second time?

That's not my quote. It's from the article.

[rmnunez]

Those who vote "no" are betraying the cause, not inspired by the same ideals of the constitution's drafter:

The mood of pessimism that descended on the French Government after ten successive polls showing the “no” camp leading was echoed by Valéry Giscard d’Estaing, the former French President, who drafted the constitution. He blamed the failures of the “yes” campaign on the half-heartedness of France’s leaders. “Our current leaders are of course believers in the idea of Europe but in their heart of hearts they are not men and women who are inspired by a European feeling,” he told a French newspaper.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...628272,00.html

[G. Adams]

I agree, to have referendum after referendum until the right answer comes up isn't democratic. But chances are if France votes no, they won't simply force more upon them, but the constitution will be resturned for renegotiation.

What puzzles me is why they are against it at all.

[RickSp]

Mr. V's conviction that Europe is tottering on the verge of collapse invariably renews my faith that everything will work out just fine.

[Nono]

Quote by: Vic Arrogant bastard ain't he?

Am I wrong to recall Boy George marshalling an army of lawyers to stop the counting in Florida before a 'wrong result' came through?

[Trotsky]

We had something similar in Ireland, a no vote on the constitution, which was re-run because some smart lawyer in Government found an old clause that said x amount of people had to vote for a referendum to be carried.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Quote by: Nono Am I wrong to recall Boy George marshalling an army of lawyers to stop the counting in Florida before a 'wrong result' came through?

Yes you would be wrong, it was Al and his boys trying to rig that election, but old news, and only a few true blue Gore crew believe that lie you posted, I won't go any further.

[G. Adams]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio I won't go any further.

Never a truer word spoken.

[tusaki]

The European Constitution is not a 'yes/no' refurendum topic, that is the big mistake. In the Netherlands, all major parties are in favor of the constitution, except for the extreme right and the extreme left (?? hah ??). If explained properly, a) people should vote in favor of the constitution and/or b) people should have a CHOICE in what kind of direction they want the union to go. The referendum, as it stands now, is stupid.

[IndieC]

Quote by: G. Adams Never a truer word spoken.

I'll second that.

As for the refurendu, it isn't stupid, its asking the people whether they like the constitution or not. Personally, i'm for a "no" vote, even though i'm half French, simply because, having read though most of it and having debated over it in numerous seminars, there are too many complications, and too much against intergovernmentalism, so going towards Federalism. It is simply too early for it, and the guy who wrote it had the arrogance (yup, he was French too, what a suprise) to say that it shouldn't be debated on, that it was good as it was, on international television, when clearly, there are several flaws.

[Nono]

Well... I'm torn myself. Don't know how I'd vote if I were French or Dutch. I have a sneaking hope that it will be "No" in France, just to give Greasy Jacques a pain in the ass, and also because the French left is correct in saying that it poses a threat to the welfare state. And maybe Europe needs a breather after the expansion. At the same time, a "No" vote will inevitably be construed by a lot of people as No to the EU. That'd be too bad, in my view.

In any case, the debate in France seems to be about anything and everything except the constitution itself. It's all the issues on the French political scene that are going to be voted on this Sunday. And this is what often happens in big referendums -- like by-elections they become a referendum on the government of the day rather than the question posed.

[rmnunez]

Referendums are not binding they are specifically drafted to provide guidance. In the US this devise is not often used but in Europe its more frequent. The outcome merely suggests to the legislature how the document should be drafted, the one they've got is obviously not good enough yet.

The proposed EU constitution has been through a lengthy drafting process and Giscard didn't work alone. There were debates on how to modify apportioned representation with each the enlargenment, governments got votes in decisive EU organs based on censuses and data contrived to provide an adequate balancing of interests that reflected the relative powers of varying constituencies. I've read about constitution drafting assemblies meeting in Scotland, Belgium, Holland, France and Spain on the issue of overlapping jurisdictions and legal subsidiarity. The connundrum is social spending and economic growth. Lots of people are on the dole in the EU's leading economies. Their currency is inflated despite chronic deficit spending and their competitive edge has eroded with the addition of costly benefits and entitlements. Newly integrated members are successfully pursuing reductions in social spending and fewer labor-related benefits to spur employment and economic growth. Germany, France and Spain have 12 to 15% unemployment rates. Immigration is a major problem and the EU has failed to curb this. It is a primary concern to many native Europeans who find their own identity swamped in their multicultural milieu and they see this more brought on than hampered by the borderless EU.

I do believe this constitution should be postponed until the European Parliament feels the need, that they should draft it rather than Giscard and that thereby they can constitute themselves as representatives of their respective governments rather than obscure grey functionaries of indeterminate diplomatic precedence and quasi executive function as they now are.

[Nono]

Quote by: rmnunez The (European) currency is inflated despite chronic deficit spending ...

Well, a No vote in France/Netherlands would probably lower the euro. :)

... and their competitive edge has eroded with the addition of costly benefits and entitlements

Yes, and a lot of people, precisely, will be voting No because they don't wish to be part of the global sweatshop.

Newly integrated members are successfully pursuing reductions in social spending and fewer labor-related benefits to spur employment and economic growth.

But after they (by which we mean their governments) get over their present bout of Washington Consensus Syndrome, they'll want those things back.

Immigration is a major problem and the EU has failed to curb this.

The proposed constitution could well exacerbate it.

I do believe this constitution should be postponed until the European Parliament feels the need, that they should draft it rather than Giscard and that thereby they can constitute themselves as representatives of their respective governments rather than obscure grey functionaries of indeterminate diplomatic precedence and quasi executive function as they now are.

Well, poor old Giscard was trying to please everybody. He has pleased no one (except the bizboys).
By the way, the European Parliament represents the people, not the governments.