Do You Support Denying All Public Assistance to Illegal immigrants in the U.S.?

[James]

I am completely against illegal immigration and helping illegal immigrants. Also, I think America's "open door" should be closed and all immigration into the U.S. should stop immediately. We're full!
And no money or help should go to those who don't pay taxes. Especially if they're sending all their income (low income) back to Mexico or wherever they're from.

[Gilligan]

No. My reason? Communicable diseases.

[rmnunez]

Extremes don't often lead to intelligent conclusions, think about what your extreme would actually mean if effectively implemented at once. First we'd get about 11 million Mexicans deported, followed by a few top flight executives from the numerous US MNCs invested in Mexico. The sudden increase in about 11 million jobs would drive wages up and substantially increase the cost of producing or delivering whatever the Mexicans did before. Seems to me the most direct impact would be high inflation. The sudden change would worsen bilateral relations with a neighbour (not a good thing to do while at war elsewhere). Lots of the undocumented's labour cannot be replaced, other undocumenteds come from farther away and need to amortize greater costs so they demand better wages, and as Fox noted, the Mexicans do the sort of jobs not even "negros" would take.

[Mr.Vicchio]

It is impossible to justify criminal behavior. And that is what illegal immagrants are. So are those that hire them.

As long as people believe the fallacy that illegals help the economy we'll never see solutions.


Sad really that peopel fall for lies because it makes them feel good.

[Gilligan]

Quote by: rmnunez Extremes don't often lead to intelligent conclusions, think about what your extreme would actually mean if effectively implemented at once. First we'd get about 11 million Mexicans deported, followed by a few top flight executives from the numerous US MNCs invested in Mexico. The sudden increase in about 11 million jobs would drive wages up and substantially increase the cost of producing or delivering whatever the Mexicans did before. Seems to me the most direct impact would be high inflation. The sudden change would worsen bilateral relations with a neighbour (not a good thing to do while at war elsewhere). Lots of the undocumented's labour cannot be replaced, other undocumenteds come from farther away and need to amortize greater costs so they demand better wages, and as Fox noted, the Mexicans do the sort of jobs not even "negros" would take.

No they don't think do they. Imagine construction with no one to work in the blistering sun doing thankless work like digging ditches or tearing shingles off a roof. These are not jobs that our average teen or young person is willing to do for low wages. They get hurt and they sue the employer a lot faster than an illegal would. I've worked with a few and they we're dedicated to working because at home their families are literally starving if they don't. Keep America safe, don't go extreme on illegal immigrants.

[Prometheus]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio It is impossible to justify criminal behavior. And that is what illegal immagrants are. So are those that hire them. As long as people believe the fallacy that illegals help the economy we'll never see solutions. Sad really that peopel fall for lies because it makes them feel good.

As long as it is illegal for them to come in, I do agree with you.

I do wish, however that we could change things so that they could come in.

[Cephus]

Quote by: incka As long as you're a citizen of the earth, you can go anywhere you like.

Fine, I'm coming to live at your house. I'm taking your bed, wearing your clothes and eating your food. And while you're at it, you can pay all my expenses, such as medical care as well. And I can do whatever I want with your property and family and if I do something you don't like, you can't do a damn thing about it.

After all, I can go anywhere I like.

[tinybear]

On the subject of deporting all illegal immigrants, we should be careful to have in place a system whereby the 'useful' ones can enter the US legally and fill up the labor market where they are most needed. We wouldn't want to commit the same error as Malaysia seems to have done:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4581547.stm

[Lou Minotti]

Quote by: rmnunez All those US MNCs doing business in Mexico are staffed with executives from over there (English classes to deal with them is a booming business here in Mexico City). For these people to work here all sorts of hurdles had to be overcome (to acredit foreign studies, standardize academic levels, integrate disciplines, standards of conduct, liability, accountability...). None of these acreditation, standardization, liability and such issues apply to the average Mexican working in the US, but the obstacles they face are more difficult to overcome (some fixed quota). Its not about "earth citizens" in a borderless globe but there are limits to what a sovereign may deny non-citizens in their jurisdiction. Foreigners abroad are handled as their governments agree. They ought to be 'entitled' to the degree they contribute, but that contribution may not be formally fiscalized. To argue undocumented Mexicans should be denied any tax-funded public service or benefit is ridiculous in a nation with the tenure the US has in sheltering refugees, providing free highly specialized medical treatment for foreigners and welcoming immigrants (though of paler complections). The recurring delivery of all sorts of taxpayer funded resources for development around the world by the US suggests the government and its population generally is not averse to spending on foreigners.

Refugees huh? Give me a break...No one is saying they should be "denied" any tax funded service. They should get food, board, and a free trip back to their country.

[Prometheus]

Quote by: Cephus Fine, I'm coming to live at your house. I'm taking your bed, wearing your clothes and eating your food. And while you're at it, you can pay all my expenses, such as medical care as well. And I can do whatever I want with your property and family and if I do something you don't like, you can't do a damn thing about it. After all, I can go anywhere I like.

I don't know if that's a good idea... you might catch "Idiot" from too much close proximity.

[FIFI]

I'm not saying other cultures are not welcomed, heck, if you come here legally, I'll be the first one to welcome you over here. But all countries / states have enough to worry about without having to support "aliens" and their families. I just don't get why USA gets told how awful we are for our border patrols, yet I know other countries (like Euroupe) that are MUCH stricter...
why are they not the bad guys?

[Matt W]

*shrugs*

Because it's not so much of a documented 'problem' as it is over in the States? I mean, the overwhelming majority of 'illegal aliens' in the USA are from Mexico - so much so that their presence directly affects the Mexican economy. Our immigrants are from all over the place - Middle East, Africa, the Pacific...so there's no one country raising a fuss.

Just a thought.

[rmnunez]

It seems like the problem with undocumented Mexicans in the US boils down to 2 things; they are seen as criminals and are believed to lap at the public trough. Is there credible intelligible evidence of either? Considering the magnitude of their influx, I'd expect there must be some record of the number of undocumented Mexicans incarcerated or those which have received medical attention north. Is this figure in disproportion to their number? Is the level of criminality present among undocumented Mexicans higher than that which is found among the undocumented from other places or the population in general?

When undocumented Mexicans are branded criminals, is this simply because of their undocumented condition or does it have to do with any other criminal conduct? Though its true all undocumenteds in the US are there unlawfully and that their illegal presence is criminally punished, its a lesser degree of criminality than is suggested by the term "criminal". There are felonies and misdemeanors, then infractions which can be merely administrative. Felons go to jail, those who perpetrate misdemeanors (miscreants?) pay fines, are put on probation and go to rehab or get counseling. Administrative infractors usually are fined, have to correct the administrative problem. People without passports in a foreign country can be simply expelled and this is the correct procedure given that there is such a high volume, but if the influx were lower or the need for their labour greater, the US would have long ago arranged for their receipt of identification and the correction of their status (also an acceptable procedure for such infractions -as we see applied to foreigners who fail to comply with Mexico's administrative processes).

The law is the way it is and the host has the prerogative on how to handle foreigners illicitly present, standard acceptable practice is deportation, but it would be smarter to exercise some judgment in the matter at hand. There is no need to handle undocumented Mexicans the same way suspected terrorists are (the threat is lower). There is a strong demand for undocumented labour in the US and this encourages the illicit crossings. If there is a problem with the masses going north this will be better resolved by working on the demand as well rather than on supply alone. There are procedures applied, but these are not contemporary and the administrative obstacles are substantial to render the rules inapplicable and unenforcible.

What about those social services. Given the profile of the average undocumented Mexican (healthy male in his 30s surreptitiously looking for work) how likely is he to be found in subsidized housing, on the dole or at the neighborhood clinic? Mexicans injured at work often end up in emergency rooms, but once they do its just until they are ambulatory before they get deported and this cost is offset by the employer's savings (no worker's comp). Added value is what gets taxed and the undocumented add value through their labour, but their wages are illicitly earned and unlawfully paid so any added value escapes taxes. However, the employer's savings from illicit employment also enhance his profits which do get taxed and finance the same social services.

The alternative term favoured by the critical left to describe these undocumenteds is "economic refugees". This is a good description except that we associate refugee status with some sort of entitlement to shelter and help which we don't associate with immigrants lawfully admitted (though immigrants to the US -genuine economic refugees- have received greater entitlements in the past than undocumented Mexicans now do). If the problem with the undocumenteds from Mexico were seen more from a refugee perspective the intelligent way to addresss the problem becomes obvious; curtail demand and foster improvements where they come from.

[Cephus]

Quote by: rmnunez It seems like the problem with undocumented Mexicans in the US boils down to 2 things; they are seen as criminals and are believed to lap at the public trough.

What do you mean that they are seen as criminals? The *ARE* criminals! They are in the country illegally! That's A CRIMINAL OFFENSE!

As for lapping at the public trough, 82 hospitals have closed in Southern California alone *DIRECTLY* because of illegal aliens getting free medical care. I'm sure you can google for evidence if you so choose, but I suspect you won't bother.

I have no idea what it is that you're smoking, but your facts are laughable. Illegal aliens are not healthy, they are bringing diseases into the US that we wiped out decades ago including TB, polio, plague, etc. There are thousands of cases of these diseases popping up in the US every year now, all caused by illegals. Legal immigrants and visitors are required to prove they are healthy and disease-free. Illegals just swim the Rio Grande.

Further, not many illegals get deported and if they do, it's certainly not quickly. Employers bear *NO* cost whatsoever for their illegal employees, it's all paid 100% by the taxpayer and the hospitals cannot refuse them treatment, even for the most insignificant injury, for fear of being sued by the Mexican rights advocates.

Something tells me you need to stop listening to the whining liberals and start looking at reality.

[tinybear]

I saw a documentary on Discovery Channel recently. They don't even have to swim the Rio Grande, it seems. They just walk over and they're in San Diego County.

[Cephus]

Quote by: tinybear I saw a documentary on Discovery Channel recently. They don't even have to swim the Rio Grande, it seems. They just walk over and they're in San Diego County.

That is true, unfortunately. We really need to get the fence completed and electrify it. Put out machine gun nests. Do whatever it takes to stop them from flooding across the border.

[RVonse]

Quote by: rmnunez If the problem with the undocumenteds from Mexico were seen more from a refugee perspective the intelligent way to addresss the problem becomes obvious; curtail demand and foster improvements where they come from.

When you say curtail demand, do you mean the US should crack down harder on the employers for illegals? If so, then I wholeheartedly agree.

As far as fostering improvements, do you mean that Mexico should improve their job market and living conditions for soon to be illegals? How do you expect the US to do anything about the way Mexico chooses to run their country?

[Chris]

Quote by: tinybear Well what do you say?

(a) Yeah of course. Illegal immigrants shouldn't be here in the first place. Why should they receive any assistance? They should be deported.


..nuff said

[rmnunez]

Yes, I'd advocate much stronger measures against employers of undocumenteds, however, I'd be mindful this will cause a substantial rise in the cost of living as the undocumented are employed everywhere. A decision must be made as to whether the total savings from not having to care for all these allegedly unhealthy people and dangerous criminals will exceed the consequence of having to pay more lawful wages. If it were illegal to employ undocumented workers and the law were 100% enforced all the time, no undocumented Mexicans would go over, for what?

Improvements in Mexico to disincentivize migration involve fostering jobs and this means more investment for faster development. Mexico's economy, always in tandem with what goes on to the north, is currently growing at about 3.5% and forecasted to accelerate further. The government has invested heavily in major infrastructural upgrades, but other necessary investments are needed in capital intensive areas which Mexico doesn't have the funds to finance. Thus I'd advocate enhanced US investment in strategic industries of their interest (particularly oil and electricity). Foreseably, Mexican development will promote economic activity there, fuel further growth and generate increased employment, drawing off some immigrants.

Ultimately it would be sensible to see how as long as a better offer is available across the border, some will cross.

[Richard Roma]

Quote by: tinybear Well what do you say? (a) Yeah of course. Illegal immigrants shouldn't be here in the first place. Why should they receive any assistance? They should be deported. (b) No. Illegal? Why? As long as you're a citizen of the earth, you can go anywhere you like. Borders are artificial and arbitrary. All men and women are equal wherever they come from. If public assistance is available, it should be available to all. (c) Public Assistance? What's that? I don't know what you're talking about. (d) No, because illegal immigrants deserve our sympathy. If we can afford it, we should assist them and make them feel welcome. What's the matter? Have we forgotten what the Statue Of Liberty stands for? (e) Other (Please specify and explain why)

Our only public assistance should be to publicly assist them out of our country. I do sympathize with them, and I would probably try as hard as possible to come to American if I lived in Mexico, but it is not healthy for any of us to condone illegal immigration. If we spread out our resources to assist them in other means then our backing to stop the illegal method becomes weak.