Do You Support Denying All Public Assistance to Illegal immigrants in the U.S.?

[Mr.Vicchio]

The voters CAN send a message. An email, a letter, what 10 minutes of their time, telling thier duly elected representatives that they oppose illegal immigration and if the Rep won't stand against it, they won't vote for said person.

Enough people do that, then you see change.

[incka]

I go with:

(b) No. Illegal? Why? As long as you're a citizen of the earth, you can go anywhere you like. Borders are artificial and arbitrary. All men and women are equal wherever they come from. If public assistance is available, it should be available to all.


Nation-states should be abolished, they just cause the whole world problems, we need world wide democracy, which doesn't mean that we don't have states still, but they are not anywhere near as powerful as today, and there would be no need for military. I don't consider myself a citizen of any country even though legally I am a citizen of the UK. I consider myself a citizen of the world and therefore I should be able to live anywhere and enjoy free healthcare and education anywhere, which I should pay by a world-tax system.

[tinybear]

Interesting to hear you say that. When I wrote option (b), I did so almost jokingly and in the expectation that probably no one would choose this option. But I heard one of my friends argue it once and thought it was worth putting it forward as one of the choices. I don't think it'll work though. How do you expect people from Somalia or Ethiopia to pay tax? Or North Korea for example?

[rmnunez]

Cephus, I don't pull anything from my ass:

The price paid to strawberry pickers over the past decade has stagnated, even in high production years, at 10-12 cents per pound for the first pick. (Because it ripens unevenly, three to four separate picks over the month-long harvest are necessary in order to gather the entire strawberry crop, with the price per pound paid to the picker usually increasing slightly as the crop is progressively thinned.) Growers boast about their good workers earning $7-$8 per hour and point out that all pickers, regardless of productivity, are covered by the state’s minimum wage of $4.75 per hour. Yet, wage abuse is reported to be common in the industry. Growers’ scales that are used to weigh the flats of strawberries in the fields may be untested and unlicensed by the state. A widespread practice this year was for duct tape to be placed above the 35 pound mark on the face of the scales (an illegal action), thereby cheating workers of their total pick. The net result for many farm workers is that, after paying for room, board, transportation, and replacement clothes and remitting a small amount of money to their families in Mexico or California, barely enough money remains for them to get to the next harvest on the West Coast.

http://zena.secureforum.com/Znet/zma.../oct95dash.htm

According to the US Department of Labor, the average farm worker currently earns under $7500 per year. These miserable wages have stagnated for decades, lagging sharply behind rising costs of living. International trade agreements such as NAFTA and the WTO place increasing pressure on growers to keep overhead costs low; paying farm workers sub-poverty wages is one way to accomplish this. In Immokalee, Florida, the situation is dire. South Florida is the nation's leading producer of fresh tomatoes. Pickers there earn 40-50 cents for every 32-pound bucket they fill. At this rate, a farm worker must pick and haul nearly 2 tons of tomatoes to earn $50 in a day. Put another way, farm workers must pick 320-pounds per hour to simply earn federal minimum wage. Florida pickers have received the same piece rate since 1978, although that is worth 65% less today. Predictably, they do not receive overtime pay or benefits such as healthcare. Still, it gets worse. Eric Schlosser, best-selling author of Fast Food Nation, recently wrote in the Los Angeles Times, "In the fields near Immokalee…a new form of indentured servitude flourishes. Illegal immigrants have been forced to work for below minimum wage to pay off their debts to people-smugglers and labor contractors. Since the mid-1990s the Justice Department has successfully prosecuted five cases of slavery in the region." In fact, an anonymous Justice Department official called south Florida "ground zero" for modern-day American slavery.

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=12229

Mixtec farmworkers earned less than the legal minimum wage in one-quarter of the jobs in which they were employed in California and Oregon during 1989-1990, and almost one-half of the Mixtecs interviewed had worked in at least one farm job that paid less than the minimum wage in 1989-1990. Mixtecs are concentrated in jobs in which payments for obligatory services are a condition of employment. In the San Joaquin Valley, a higher proportion of Mixtecs than other Mexican farmworkers work under the raitero system, in which asa condition of employment they must ride to work in their supervisor's vehicle for a fee of three to $6 a day. Mixtecs are concentrated in jobs with short duration, have, on average, more farm jobs per year, and are more migratory compared to other Mexican farmworkers. Mixtecs are subject to high levels of labor standards violations: over one-quarter of the Mixtec workers interviewed reported experiencing non-payment of wages by a U.S. employer on at least one occasion.

http://www.cirsinc.org/pub/mixtec.html
Google "Mexican", "farmworker" and "wages" for more about this.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Quote by: incka I go with: (b) No. Illegal? Why? As long as you're a citizen of the earth, you can go anywhere you like. Borders are artificial and arbitrary. All men and women are equal wherever they come from. If public assistance is available, it should be available to all. Nation-states should be abolished, they just cause the whole world problems, we need world wide democracy, which doesn't mean that we don't have states still, but they are not anywhere near as powerful as today, and there would be no need for military. I don't consider myself a citizen of any country even though legally I am a citizen of the UK. I consider myself a citizen of the world and therefore I should be able to live anywhere and enjoy free healthcare and education anywhere, which I should pay by a world-tax system.

Citzens of the earth? They can go where ever they please? Sure they can come to America, but they need to do so the right way. Legally.

Also, just because they are here, doesn't mean they are entitled to a penny of money from the tax payers of America.


Nation States will never be abolished, and that socialist utopian pipe dream cracks me up everytime I see someone spouting off the absurd notion as if it makes sense or would ever work.

[rmnunez]

Utopian pipe dreams to one side, NAFTA entails, in due course, free transferability of labour along with goods and other services. That means Mexicans will be entitled to work in the US (or Canada) just like people from those countries will be able to work in Mexico.

[tinybear]

But would anyone want to work in Mexico?

[Mr.Vicchio]

Some do Tinybear, but most of the jobs by foriegners are service oriented, not labour.

So they are entitled to work in the USA, did anyone say otherwise? You want to work here, GREAT! Come on over, come over legally and follow the laws.

That and we need to bar non-citizens from recieving ANY benifits fromt he US Government. They have thier OWN govenrments, let them deal with them. It's time to stop coddling people one, and not treating ILLEGAL workers and immigrants as the criminals that they are.

[Cephus]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio The voters CAN send a message. An email, a letter, what 10 minutes of their time, telling thier duly elected representatives that they oppose illegal immigration and if the Rep won't stand against it, they won't vote for said person.

Unfortunately, that doesn't work in the real world. In the real world, the electorate is stupid and will vote for anyone who looks good on TV. Politicians don't give a damn about the voters because they can be easily swayed and big business wants illegal aliens as cheap labor and happy big business gives campaign contributions to politicians to make sure their supply remains available. Campaign contributions go to making TV commercials that attract stupid voters.

All the letters and e-mail in the world isn't going to change that. You don't think that the representatives even read it, do you?

[carlessbiker]

Quote by: incka I should be able to live anywhere and enjoy free healthcare and education anywhere, which I should pay by a world-tax system.

Since there is no world-tax system, you are entitled to exactly...JACK!!!

[Rainbow]

Quote by: incka As long as you're a citizen of the earth, you can go anywhere you like.

And the anarchy rules :)
The point is that we talk about U.S. citizens and/or legal aliens in U.S., and not about "Earth Citizens".

Who are those so-called : "Earth Citizens" ?
Do you mean all who inhabit planet Earth ?

[Prometheus]

Quote by: incka As long as you're a citizen of the earth, you can go anywhere you like.

Ok, I'll come live in your back yard, because I am a citizen of the earth. And your back yard is on the earth...

Citizen of the earth dosen't mean squat. It's a warm fuzzy idea that is as vacious as my claim to your back yard.

[FIFI]

I think "Earth Citiziens" was created by lazy hippies who wanted to sleep in someone's pool house. If you weren't born in a country, don't belong here, and can't qualify, then their must be a reason... and before you start to complain, I don't see 10,000 Americans running the border to England without any lash back, because their gov't would send our asses back home, and no one would care or fight about it.

[Prometheus]

Quote by: FIFI I think "Earth Citiziens" was created by lazy hippies who wanted to sleep in someone's pool house. If you weren't born in a country, don't belong here, and can't qualify, then their must be a reason... and before you start to complain, I don't see 10,000 Americans running the border to England without any lash back, because their gov't would send our asses back home, and no one would care or fight about it.

Yah, but why would we want to go to England? On this topic, I refer to John Stewart (god of humor):

"There is no culture war in England. They're all gay!"

[Lou Minotti]

Quote by: rmnunez Because how well one operates a motor vehicle or performs academically are unaffected by citizenship or nationality?

Except for the fact that they are driving on road that didn't pay and also happen to be CRIMINALS :rolleyes: .

[Lou Minotti]

I think "Earth Citiziens" was created by lazy hippies who wanted to sleep in someone's pool house.

Holy crap I just spilt tea all over me.... HAHAHAAAAAAA...

[rmnunez]

All those US MNCs doing business in Mexico are staffed with executives from over there (English classes to deal with them is a booming business here in Mexico City). For these people to work here all sorts of hurdles had to be overcome (to acredit foreign studies, standardize academic levels, integrate disciplines, standards of conduct, liability, accountability...). None of these acreditation, standardization, liability and such issues apply to the average Mexican working in the US, but the obstacles they face are more difficult to overcome (some fixed quota).

Its not about "earth citizens" in a borderless globe but there are limits to what a sovereign may deny non-citizens in their jurisdiction. Foreigners abroad are handled as their governments agree. They ought to be 'entitled' to the degree they contribute, but that contribution may not be formally fiscalized.

To argue undocumented Mexicans should be denied any tax-funded public service or benefit is ridiculous in a nation with the tenure the US has in sheltering refugees, providing free highly specialized medical treatment for foreigners and welcoming immigrants (though of paler complections). The recurring delivery of all sorts of taxpayer funded resources for development around the world by the US suggests the government and its population generally is not averse to spending on foreigners.

[Mr.Vicchio]

As long as they come to the USA legally, it's fine. The illegals deserve to be treated as criminals, period.

[rmnunez]

I differ, what you call "illegals" would be more accurately termed "infractors" (its an "administrative breach"). Additionally, custom and practice are worth a lot in international relations and on this the custom and practice has been for undocumenteds to be regularly imported and make their way north with relative impunity. Reciprocity is a traditional standard and with all those fancy executives and tourists its silly to advocate denying them Mexican taxpayer funded benefits and services (medical atention, police, roads...)

[Mr.Vicchio]

Infractors? No, CRIMINALS period. They should be arrested, sent back and told nto to re-enter the USA illeagally again, show them how to do so legally, and if they come back, lock them up.

Lock up anyone who HIRES them, and deny them ANY access to government funds, programs or benifits. They don't deserve one penny of help.