Do You Support Denying All Public Assistance to Illegal immigrants in the U.S.?

[tinybear]

Quote by: Trent I believe that the Corperations that make and sell weapons of human destruction around the world should foot the immigrant bill in their own country. Immigrants are a direct result of human greed - the unwillingness to share. The Corperations that make money out of death and destruction should have to pay for their callousness - and I can't think of a better way. Yeah, make war less lucrative for the bomb makers by forcing them to pay for a proper immigrant programme, then watch war become less favourable.

Pushing this argument to its logical conclusion, I suppose if you're shot by a robber, you can sue the gun manufacturer.

[Trent]

Stranger things have happened.

[tinybear]

But only in America....:)

[rmnunez]

Effectively barring all undocumented immigrants from work through mandatory incarceration of employers, sealing the borders, massive military deployments and such could work, but then you'd have to deal with the consequences. Along with whatever savings resulted to the government's social services, education, medical and other institutions from not having to catter to Mexicans (they don't do much of this in the first place) would also come across the board inflation. As employers fearful of their own liberty shunned the undocumented, they'd hire verifiable citizens, who are a bit more expensive. It is estimated undocumented Mexicans are paid a third of the minimum wage, this should mean the labour cost will rise by about a third for all things Mexicans are most often employed in. The impact may be insignificant in terms of the price of a lunch at a restaurant with Mexican help, but in things like agriculture, labour is a substantial part of the price and the impact would be major.

[tinybear]

But if that is the price for enforcing the law, then so be it. It will have to be paid.

[belverron]

Our laws may need to be adjusted, but I agree with tinybear. I think the most important thing is to discourage the employment of illegals to such an extent that they have little incentive to cross the border. I think it is equally important to allow enough of the immigrants through to fill the demand for low-wage workers legally.

[rmnunez]

There is no provision now to allow enough immigrants to fill demand for low-paying jobs. I suspect many dismissing concerns over the impact of undocumented Mexicans on their cost of living are financially secure or unaware of the portion wages are in the costs they pay for consumer goods and services rendered by undocumenteds. I'd suggest we have some indicia the impact would be tremendous; about 40% of the people living in the Southwest come from Mexico, half of them are undocumented, there are more undocumented Mexicans than lawfully employed people in California agriculture. Get an estimate of the labor costs included in a pound of grapes, multiply that by 3 and add that cost to the price you'd have to pay. Apparently many here can handle the hike without concern, but everyone needs food and those with lower purchasing power would suffer there.

[castille]

Well if everyone from a politically unstable country simply fled to another country, wouldn't the world be a bit screwed up?

I mean the whole point of immigration is to boost a country's economy. That's why most legal immigrants have some form of education or skills.

[Cephus]

Quote by: rmnunez There is no provision now to allow enough immigrants to fill demand for low-paying jobs. I suspect many dismissing concerns over the impact of undocumented Mexicans on their cost of living are financially secure or unaware of the portion wages are in the costs they pay for consumer goods and services rendered by undocumenteds. I'd suggest we have some indicia the impact would be tremendous; about 40% of the people living in the Southwest come from Mexico, half of them are undocumented, there are more undocumented Mexicans than lawfully employed people in California agriculture. Get an estimate of the labor costs included in a pound of grapes, multiply that by 3 and add that cost to the price you'd have to pay. Apparently many here can handle the hike without concern, but everyone needs food and those with lower purchasing power would suffer there.

Which is ridiculous, of course. If we required all employers to pay minimum wage (and they're currently breaking the law if they don't), they'd have plenty of American workers willing to do the jobs. If that costs the consumer a little more (and not the 3x number you pulled out of your ass), so be it. At best, according to analysts, it would be a few cents more, if that.

[Prometheus]

I'm going to be as asshole libertarian here so just be warned that you will probably end up disregarding this viewpoint anyway.

(1) Employment - no one has the right to a job. You have the right to what you can aquire without theft or fraud. If some wetback can do your job better than you, then you are out of bloody luck. Maybe you should get a skill, work harder, and not bitch so much. Then you wouldn't have to worry about some hard working mexacan taking your job. If you can't find a job, then there is something wrong with YOU - don't blame it on someone else. As a buisiness-person I want to hire the best value of employee.

(2) Social programs - As a libertarian i say get rid of them, but we all know that's not going to happen, so I advocate the next best solution - It is money paid by the US citizens, and it should therefore be distributed back to the US citizens.


Anyway, there was my totally predictable libertarian rant. You all probably knew what I was going to say, but I had to get it out of my system.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: tinybear Do You Support Denying All Public Assistance to Illegal immigrants in the U.S.? (a) Yeah of course. Illegal immigrants shouldn't be here in the first place. Why should they receive any assistance? They should be deported. (e) Other (Please specify and explain why)

#A
Yes.

#E
Under specific conditions, only.
Example :
- life threat

[carlessbiker]

Quote by: Prometheus I'm going to be as asshole libertarian here so just be warned that you will probably end up disregarding this viewpoint anyway. (1) Employment - no one has the right to a job. You have the right to what you can aquire without theft or fraud. If some wetback can do your job better than you, then you are out of bloody luck. Maybe you should get a skill, work harder, and not bitch so much. Then you wouldn't have to worry about some hard working mexacan taking your job. If you can't find a job, then there is something wrong with YOU - don't blame it on someone else. As a buisiness-person I want to hire the best value of employee.

The problem with this concept is all illegals are undocumented and the employer is not required to pay them minimum wage. That puts them at an unfair advantage. You're right when you say that no one has the right to a job, but if you are competing for a job, it has to be on a level playing field. You will always loose when an employer has to choose between paying taxes on an employee and giving him minimum wage and paying one under the table. Of course, this is more the employer's fault than the worker.

Quote by: Prometheus (2) Social programs - As a libertarian i say get rid of them, but we all know that's not going to happen, so I advocate the next best solution - It is money paid by the US citizens, and it should therefore be distributed back to the US citizens.

This I agree with 100%

[Prometheus]

Biker The problem with this concept is all illegals are undocumented and the employer is not required to pay them minimum wage.

I should have stated such, but with nearly all libertarians, the abolition of minimum wage is assumed. You are worth what someone will pay for you - not what the government says you are worth.

[trixmix]

A...
Bottom line...There are people living IN THIS COUNTRY legally, whom are citizens, that need assistance first. It is utterly ridiculous to support a system where they receive free medical care. And education is definitely getting out of control if my daughter, who was born in this country, has to be halted in school while the classroom takes the time to let the spanish speaking majority of the class catch up. In younger grades, seeing as she was so smart, she always finished her classwork early...and teachers actually required her to take the initiative, and go to their desks for instruction on which hispanic child she had to help once her work was completed. That used to drive me nuts...She is in 7th grade now, and she has quite a large group of friends she hangs out with at school...I asked her one day 'wow, with all these friends you have now, you must be pretty popular?' she responded with 'heck no, we're losers...we're not Chola's, you've gotta be a Mexican to be popular'

That really sucks, IMO.

My family moved here from Montreal when I was a baby...My father was from Czechoslovakia, and he had to jump through hoops to become a citizen here...he had to learn a whole booklet of stuff, and take an oath. And I remember helping him learn it, seeing as he he barely even read enough English to study this pamplet and take his oath. But he pulled it off & became a citizen. Why do these 'new' immigrants deserve a free ride?

[carlessbiker]

Quote by: Prometheus I should have stated such, but with nearly all libertarians, the abolition of minimum wage is assumed. You are worth what someone will pay for you - not what the government says you are worth.

Well, than that is a topic for another discussion. As far as the law states right now, workers need to be legal, and they need to be paid minimum wage (at least) and their employer need to claim them just like any other worker. If they still do a better job, more power to them, they deserve their job just as much as anyone else. NO FREE RIDES!!


Trixmix, I agree.

[RVonse]

Trixmix, thanks for sharing I agree with you too. I have heard about the problems with illegal immegrants coming across the sourthern border into California.

Could I ask you a question? I happen to live in the mid-west and have only visited Los Angeles a couple of times but it is very obvious I could never afford the high cost of housing where you live. It would be difficult for me to afford to buy a house there (even though I have a pretty high paying job), so I wonder how in the world do all the illegal Mexicans get housing? How can they afford to buy a $500,000 house or rent a $3000/mo apartment? Do they come to our country with great wealth? If not, then where or how do they live?

I can almost see how the illegals from Cuba might make it work in Miami, but I can't for the life of me understand how a poor immegrant affords a lifestyle in Orange County.

[trixmix]

Quote by: RVonse Trixmix, thanks for sharing I agree with you too. I have heard about the problems with illegal immegrants coming across the sourthern border into California. Could I ask you a question? I happen to live in the mid-west and have only visited Los Angeles a couple of times but it is very obvious I could never afford the high cost of housing where you live. It would be difficult for me to afford to buy a house there (even though I have a pretty high paying job), so I wonder how in the world do all the illegal Mexicans get housing? How can they afford to buy a $500,000 house or rent a $3000/mo apartment? Do they come to our country with great wealth? If not, then where or how do they live? I can almost see how the illegals from Cuba might make it work in Miami, but I can't for the life of me understand how a poor immegrant affords a lifestyle in Orange County.

Thanks, I appreciate when someone agrees with me, it makes it so much easier...

Anyways, that is an excellent question, and I will answer it...There are 2 things that I can think of that enable them to afford living here- I am sure there are several other reasons that could apply, but mainly they move into areas that started off as nice areas, but somehow or another, the Mexicans got in there, and they immediately run the area down, so that it turns into a mini-tijuana, or taco flats. So then the landlords can't really fix up the units and rent to different folks, because the whole area looks like crap, sounds mariachi-esque, and reeks of frijoles.
When dealing with high rents-the way they get around that is, they move in 3 or 4 families into the apartment, or house, and viola...with 4 or 5 working individuals and a couple of welfare recipients there...they can easily make the rent and still have enough money to send to their families in Mexico.
It really gets annoying, to drive by some of the areas in which they live, and see the curtains blowing out the window's (I don't know what it is with them, and why they hate window screens)-and 45 children playing in the street-with absolutely no fear of cars. And having to hear whistles of 'aye mamacita' everytime you walk by them.

My main concern is why my dad had to play by the rules and obtain his citizenship the way he did, and these people get a free ride...It's insane.
California is the worst, you know it's bad, when the people end up forming their own groups to monitor the border...Isn't there something we can do?

[Mr.Vicchio]

I blame the voters in the end. They don't get up and demand that money taken from them not be spent on criminals. Until that happens the politicians will, for political and misguided personal reasons continue to allow money to be given to criminals in the belief that it will get them more votes at the polls then if they were to take a stand and deny such funds.

[RVonse]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio I blame the voters in the end. They don't get up and demand that money taken from them not be spent on criminals

I don't dissagree with you, but how do you realistically expect everyday voters to do this? Most of us work for a living and do not have time or resources to go to Washington to lobby. The only thing I can see voters should do is to vote the bad politicians out of office. But they won't do it!Party line affiliation has become so important for most Americans they would rather eat crap than vote against their party.

And as stupid as this sounds, I know a lot of people who would never vote Ralph Nader or Ross Perot for no other reason than they were underdogs fighting against the major parties. Because those voters say they "don't throw their vote away". Well with that kind of attitude the small guy is never going to win in America no matter how good he represents our will.

[tinybear]

America needs tougher immigration laws and we need to seal the borders (if that's at all possible). Otherwise, I can't think of what else we can do. Can you?