How Should We Deal With This Problem?

[tinybear]

Iraq Calls on Neighbors to Stop Insurgency

By PATRICK QUINN
BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari called on neighboring countries Thursday to help prevent foreign terrorists from crossing into Iraq as a series of attacks killed more than a dozen Iraqis and one American soldier.

Al-Jaafari's appeal came a day after a top U.S. military official said the leaders of Iraq's most notorious terrorist group recently held a secret meeting in neighboring Syria, where they plotted the recent wave of insurgent violence that has killed hundreds of people.

``There are infiltrations of non-Iraqis through the border to carry out sabotage activities,'' al-Jaafari said of the meeting that may have been attended by most-wanted militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi himself. ``It's up to our geographical neighbors. We are keen to preserve relations between us and neighboring countries, and these relations should be good.''

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/...98.htm&sc=1107

Face it folks, Syria harbors terrorists. How do you think we should approach this problem?

1. We negotiate with Syria. Give Syria some economic or political incentive to change its ways;

2. Forget about negotiation and attack Syria;

3. Get the hell outta Iraq tomorrow 'cos it ain't our problem;

4. Unconditionally surrender to the terrorists and beg for forgiveness;

5. Send death squads into Syria and kill the terrorists;

6. Others (Please explain)

[Gorgo]

6. The United States attacked Iraq illegally. Whatever they do, until long after George Bush is in prison, will be seen as part of that crime. The United States has to pull out and prosecute the criminals.

[tinybear]

That's a combo of 3 and 4 isn't it?

[Gorgo]

Quote by: tinybear That's a combo of 3 and 4 isn't it?

No. 3 says that it ain't our problem. It is the problem created by George Bush and his criminal gang. No.4 says "surrender to terrorists." I don't want to surrender to George Bush, I wish to see him put out of office.

[tinybear]

Pull out of Iraq and prosecute Bush and his cabinet. OK, gotcha. Anyone else?

[Gorgo]

I honestly don't care if no one goes to prison, just so long as these people are driven out of office and we let the world know that we're all not criminals and don't support these illegal attacks and wish to end U.S. terrorism.

[tinybear]

Would that stop terrorist attacks against the United States and its allies and stop the insurgency threat in Iraq, you think?

[Gorgo]

What is an "insurgency threat?" Is that where people attempt to end terrorism in their home country?

[tinybear]

No, it's a bunch of extremists/terrorists kidnapping and beheading innocent people and trying to bring chaos to a country trying to rebuild itself. But we digress....do you think the trial of Bush and the immediate withdrawal of US troops from Iraq will put an end to the chaos in Iraq?

[RickSp]

Quote by: tinybear Would that stop terrorist attacks against the United States and its allies and stop the insurgency threat in Iraq, you think?

As terrorist attacks, so far, have had absolutly zero do with Iraq, that seems like a rather stupid question.

The one thing that has united the insurgency thus far is the US occupation, so US withdrawal is likely to weaken the insurgency dramatically. On the other hand the puppet governement set up by the US in Iraq (yes, I knew they were elected but under highly manipulative US rules) may prove too inept and greedy to do much about an even weakened insurgency.

We should withdraw regardless. The longer we stay the worse it will become.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: tinybear do you think the trial of Bush and the immediate withdrawal of US troops from Iraq will put an end to the chaos in Iraq?

I think if the people of the U.S. wish to have any credibility in the world, they need to end their own terrorism. Will that end crime everywhere? No. No reason to think that it would. Until the U.S. can set an example, no one has any reason to think that the U.S. will somehow care about ending anyone else's crimes, and anything they do will be seen as an extension of their reign of terror.

[tinybear]

I think once we withdraw, we could be criticized as irresponsible. On top of that, I think we haven't begun to pacify our critics. Don't forget what made people like Bin Laden our enemies in the first place: our Israel policy. If you think the US is practising terrorism, we're nowhere near Israel. And who has been Israel's greatest supporter for the past 50 years? America. So the next thing we'll have to do is reverse our policy vis-a-vis Israel. Can you see this happening folks? You might as well say you choose option 4.

[Gorgo]

Again, option #4 refers to "the terrorists" as though George Bush was not one of "the terrorists." It isn't about surrendering, it's about doing something about terrorism. One of the ways to do that is to stop committing it.

Yes, Israel is another matter.

[tinybear]

Clarification: "Terrorists" in option 4 means the Islamic terrorists ( and not George W Bush or his subordinates).

[Gorgo]

Quote by: tinybear could be criticized as irresponsible

I would criticize them as irresponsible that criticized me for attempting to act in a reasonable, lawful, peaceful manner.

[Gorgo]

Okay, but getting out does not mean surrendering anything to anyone. It means working towards a safer world by ending U.S. terrorist activities, hopefully setting an example.

[lsbskins1]

6. We begin by understanding that the mess in the middle east took centuries to develop and will not be solved with any solution that involves quick or easy fixes. We also understand that the actions of the few (extreme fundementalists) do not require the oppression or extinction of the many. If you want to solve a problem, you have to first understand the nature of the problem, and learn to distinguish between symptoms and the illness itself. You don't treat heart conditions by cutting out the heart, nor by giving massive doses of pain killers to make that nasty tightness in your chest go away.
Now, for what I think should be done. We admit to the Arab world that in the past we have exploited them for our own benefit, and by we I mean not just the United States, but the Western powers. The middle east map looks the way it does today because of what was politically expedient during and after both World Wars. Colonialism rears it's ugly head again. If we want them to admit and face their shortcomings and political sins, we have to be willing to do the same. Next, we somehow convince the West that we do not always have the only answers and ours are not the only valid concerns in the world. Just like us, the average arab/muslim worries about feeding their families and securing a safe corner in their own world. But most importantly, the United States has to realize that if we expect others to respect us , we can not impose our specific will on the world, we must be willing to submit to the same world opinion we damn others with (submit to World Court jurisdiction) and we must be prepared to surrender some of the goodies we suck up in the world (check into the ecological footprint of the US). Will our citizens accept these things? I doubt it. Will our government ever move towards this track? Not in my lifetime. I am not arguing that anyone will accept my answers. I am saying that if we were really honest with ourselves and not just "patriotic", we would understand that the answers are out there, they just aren't the answers we want to hear. They hate us because we only care about us and our freedoms, not because we are free. They hate us because we support regeims who oppress them, ridicule their concerns and only consider them when our pocket books are affected.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: tinybear I think once we withdraw, we could be criticized as irresponsible.

We ARE irresponsible for starting the war under false pretenses. To admit it, and stop such a war would be only right. War is Terrorism. I vote for immediate withdrawal. But not number 3:

Quote by: tinybear 3. Get the hell outta Iraq tomorrow 'cos it ain't our problem;

Which is denial of blame. It is a problem WE CREATED! We need to leave them alone and give them back their land and their oil.

gwb's Executive Order #13303 STEALS IRAQI OIL (4 page pdf)

I, GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States of America, find that the threat of attachment or other judicial process against the Development Fund for Iraq, Iraqi petroleum and petroleum products, and interests therein, and proceeds, obligations, or any financial instruments of any nature whatsoever arising from or related to the sale or marketing thereof, and interests therein, obstructs the orderly reconstruction of Iraq, the restoration and maintenance of peace and security in the country, and the development of political, administrative, and economic institutions in Iraq. This situation constitutes an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States and I hereby declare a national emergency to deal with that threat. I hereby order: Section 1. Unless licensed or otherwise authorized pursuant to this order, any attachment, judgment, decree, lien, execution, garnishment, or other judicial process is prohibited, and shall be deemed null and void, with respect to the following: (a) the Development Fund for Iraq, and (b) all Iraqi petroleum and petroleum products, and interests therein, and proceeds, obligations, or any financial instruments of any nature whatsoever arising from or related to the sale or marketing thereof, and interests therein, in which any foreign country or a national thereof has any interest, that are in the United States, that hereafter come within the United States, or that are or hereafter come within the possession or control of United States persons. More...

Of course, its for their own good. They cant be trusted with their own oil.

[Dieval]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel We ARE irresponsible for starting the war under false pretenses. To admit it, and stop such a war would be only right. War is Terrorism. I vote for immediate withdrawal. But not number 3:Which is denial of blame. It is a problem WE CREATED! We need to leave them alone and give them back their land and their oil. gwb's Executive Order #13303 STEALS IRAQI OIL (4 page pdf) Of course, its for their own good. They cant be trusted with their own oil.

Hey gr8, they managed their own oil for quite a while(i.e. Saddam). Pssstt...he didn't do so well....well, that's not entirely true - he became rich from the oil.


And just so you know, 13303 was slightly modified in EO 13364 -

Section 1. Section 1 of Executive Order 13303 is hereby amended to read as follows: ‘‘Section 1. (a) Except as provided in section 1(b) of this order, and unless licensed or otherwise authorized pursuant to this order, any attachment, judgment, decree, lien, execution, garnishment, or other judicial process is prohibited and shall be deemed null and void with respect to the following: (i) the Development Fund for Iraq; (ii) all Iraqi petroleum and petroleum products, and interests therein, but only until title passes to the initial purchaser, and proceeds, obligations, or any financial instruments of any nature whatsoever arising from or related to the sale or marketing thereof, and interests therein, in which any foreign country or a national thereof has any interest, that are in the United States, that hereafter come within the United States, or that are or hereafter come within the possession or control of United States persons; and (iii) any accounts, assets, investments, or any other property of any kind owned by, belonging to, or held by the Central Bank of Iraq, or held, maintained, or otherwise controlled by any financial institution of any kind in the name of, on behalf of, or otherwise for the Central Bank of Iraq. (b) The prohibition in section 1(a) of this order shall not apply with respect to any final judgment arising out of a contractual obligation entered into by the Government of Iraq, including any agency or instrumentality thereof, after June 30, 2004.’’

[Sonart]

Quote by: tinybear I think once we withdraw, we could be criticized as irresponsible.

That's exactly why we never should have gone in the first place. You break it, you own it. The moment we set foot in Iraq, we were damned if we do and damned if we don't. That's the seething frustration of moderate liberals; we concede that we have no choice but to stay, yet we have no faith that things will turn out well.

In a phrase... Dear Leader has screwed us good.


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