Newsweek:We were wrong, no Koran Desacration

[RickSp]

Quote by: rmnunez Sp I wouldn't call the toilet "minutiae" in Newsweek's story on Q'ranic desecrations by the US military.

You obsess on plumbing and ignore the larger issue. You are many things, but I seriously doubt that you are that stupid.

[rmnunez]

If part of the story is patently untrue I have good reason to suspect other portions might also be false. Doubtless Q´rans were desecrated, likely in worse ways, but saying this was done by flushing them down toilets sugests some sort of distortion.

[Gilligan]

I think its important to remember Jessica Lynch when considering whether Newsweek was misinformed or if it was just misinforming. I don't think that the Middle East puts enough stock in the American media to lay down their lives over something it prints.

[rmnunez]

But they did just that in Afghanistan (not quite the Middle East) people "laid down their lives" over the stock they put in what the gringan media printed.

[RickSp]

Quote by: rmnunez If part of the story is patently untrue I have good reason to suspect other portions might also be false. Doubtless Q´rans were desecrated, likely in worse ways, but saying this was done by flushing them down toilets sugests some sort of distortion.

So you are concerned entirely about the word "flushed" but concede that the acts of desecration that set off the riots "doubtless[ly]" took place. And your concern seems to be whether or not the Koran thrown into a toilet actually made it through the pipes or stayed in the bowl? Does it really matter precisely what was meant by the word "flushed"? Apparently it does to you, if no one else.

And of by the way, from the front page of todays NYTimes.

Documents Say Detainees Cited Abuse of Koran by Guards

Newly released documents show that detainees at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, complained repeatedly to F.B.I. agents about disrespectful handling of the Koran by military personnel and, in one case in 2002, said they had flushed a Koran down a toilet.

(Emphasis added.)

[jose]

FBI Records Cite Quran Abuse
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=792922

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: rmnunez But they did just that in Afghanistan (not quite the Middle East) people "laid down their lives" over the stock they put in what the gringan media printed.

More of that "gringan" nonsense I see. Whenever you get countered on your posts, you resort to flame-baiting. Well, perhaps this whole controversy isn't the fault of any "gringan" at all. Since the U.S. Attorney General (Alberto Gonzales) and the former U.S. Military Commander in Iraq (Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez) have been major influences in the interrogation procedures used on "detainees", perhaps it's not the "gringans" at all that are causing the problems with Koran desecrations.

[Sean]

rmnunez,

Stop being dense. Either call people here United Stations or something like that, or get off the board. It is offensive to most users here, and it destracts all of the arguments.

Grow up. Do not reply to this within this post (it will distract it even more)

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: Zeebadee Since the U.S. Attorney General (Alberto Gonzales) and the former U.S. Military Commander in Iraq (Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez) have been major influences in the interrogation procedures used on "detainees", perhaps it's not the "gringans" at all that are causing the problems with Koran desecrations.

Good Point Zeeb. And when the light is just right, you can see the puppet strings.

[Sonart]

Quote by: rmnunez If part of the story is patently untrue I have good reason to suspect other portions might also be false.

Sounds like a microcosm of Bush's Iraq War in general.

.

[tinybear]

Hey folks (esp. you anti-Bush anti-war people), you might wanna take a look at this:

http://www.markfiore.com/animation/why01.html

[rmnunez]

Like I said:

The US military has identified 5 incidents of "mishandling of a Koran" by US personnel at Guantanamo, but found no credible evidence that the Muslim holy book had been flushed down a toilet, the commander of the prison said Thursday. Brig. Gen. Jay Hood refused to specify the nature of the mishandling of the Koran at the prison for foreign terrorism suspects at the US naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, other than to say it did not involve placing it in a toilet.

[RickSp]

rmnunez,

Sure from the folks who said that Pat Tillman died in a firefight with AlQueda. The Pentagon is a particularly reliable source when reporting on itself. There have already been ten investigations that cleared everyone above a brain dead sergeant for prisoner abuse.

Sure "no credible evidence exists". It was probably flushed down one of thier famous tiolets.

[Sonart]

Tinybear's cartoon was talking to you, rm. Even your own post suggests that abuses have occured, but that Newsweek's 15 word tidbit got a detail wrong. This compared to a war that you support which was based on entirely bogus information spread for months by this administration, and an occupation highlighted by non-stop gross political incompetence. Thou dost protest too much.

.

[RickSp]

Another cartoon

[rmnunez]

Yes, I enjoyed the animated cartoon too, very nice.

There must have been abuses with these Q'rans, I can imagine more uncomfortable places they might try and put those books. We have an expression in Spanish; "cuando el rio suena, agua lleva" (when you hear the river its got water) this is to suggest that all these pictures of prisoners in hoods with wires, heaped nude in pyramids, kneeling in sexually humiliating poses, the public shackling and sensory deprivation of the caged suspects and other alleged (and sometimes substantiated) trauma, then coupled with the Newsweek bit makes the truth of the matter highly likely.

My obsession with the specific allegation of flushings relates to a perceived inconsistency which detracts from the credibility of the bit. But I do believe Q'rans were desecratred, in fact I suspect they were issued for this purpose.

[RickSp]

I just heard that the Pentagon has issued a report that it would prefer that no one reads. They issued it on Friday night at 7:15 PM to miss the day's news cycle in hopes that it disappears over the weekend.

Turns out that there are documented cases of Koranic abuse including stepping on the Koran, soaking it in water, dragging it across the floor and urine being poured on the Koran and a detainee. So, no documented flushing, just more abuse. Surprise, surprise.

[tinybear]

As I asked earlier, what's the big deal about how the Koran's treated? Worse things have been done to the American flag and effigies of American Presidents.

[Dieval]

Quote by: RickSp Turns out that there are documented cases of Koranic abuse including stepping on the Koran,

Here's what happened -

In another of the confirmed cases, a contract interrogator stepped on a detainee's Quran in July 2003 and then apologized.

and was later terminated.

Quote by: RickSp soaking it in water,

The closest thing was -

water balloons thrown by prison guards caused an unspecified number of Qurans to get wet;

Quote by: RickSp dragging it across the floor and urine being poured on the Koran and a detainee.

In the most recent confirmed case, Hood said a detainee complained on March 25, 2005, of urine splashing on him and his Quran. An unidentified guard admitted at the time that "he was at fault," the Hood report said, although it did not say whether the act was deliberate. The guard's supervisor reprimanded him and assigned him to gate guard duty, where he had no contact with detainees for the remainder of his assignment at Guantanamo Bay. As described in the Hood report, the guard had left his observation post and went outside to urinate. He urinated near an air vent and the wind blew his urine through the vent into the cell block.

...looks like he was reprimaded too..

Quote by: RickSp So, no documented flushing, just more abuse. Surprise, surprise.

Actually, there was flushing...it just wasn't down by the military -

Hood also said his investigation found 15 cases of detainees mishandling their own Qurans. "These included using a Quran as a pillow, ripping pages out of the Quran, attempting to flush a Quran down the toilet and urinating on the Quran," Hood's report said.

Yahoo news story

Looks to me like there were more documented abuses of the quran by inmates than by our military.

[rmnunez]

Their wardens gave them these Q'rans, their wardens may take them away and do with them as they please.