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tinybear · May 20, 2005, 01:52 pm

A very interesting article the contents of which, I think, reflect the truth.

http://www.thestandard.com.hk/stdn/s.../GE20Df01.html

allen · May 20, 2005, 02:45 pm

no, I don't think this article reflects the truth. Actually westerners seldom report issues squarely. If you can read articles written by Hongkong locals, you will be much closer to the truth.

AFAIK, most people in HK don't want general elections, which means more tax and could probably hurt the economy. And Tung's quit fromt the top office is what the majority in HongKong want. But I do think CPP intervenes a lot in Hongkong.

The "one country, two systems" CPP used to woo Taiwan is much looser than the one in Hongkong. But that term has been sabotaged so badly by Taiwan government that most Taiwanese frown upon hearing it, while few know the actual content of it. But in the long run, the room left for them is diminishing. When China gain enough power to conquer it, they probably have to accept a Hongkong version of "one country, two systems".

tinybear · May 20, 2005, 02:51 pm

Vines is a local. He's been in Hong Kong for a long time (despite being Caucasian).

Livemike · May 20, 2005, 03:58 pm

Quote:

Quote by: tinybear

Do more than pray. Support their quest for self-determination. Tell the commies to leave Taiwan alone.

They've had that for a while now. Now some of them seem to have
an irrational desire to _say_ they have self-determination. The Chinese
people and government have an equally irrational desire to stop them
saying it. Taiwan is a prosperous, relatively democratic (for the region
and it's getting better) and peaceful place. How is claiming an
independece they already exercise going to improve on that?

tinybear · May 20, 2005, 04:09 pm

Good question. Actually, this whole Taiwan independence thing is just a political ploy by the President to win votes. And it succeeded. It's a long story and I'm getting kinda sleepy. I'll tell you all about it later. :)

allen · May 20, 2005, 05:02 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Livemike

How is claiming an independece they already exercise going to improve on that?

There is some legal work to do before Taiwan's independence is a done deal, such as changing the name of the coutry, changing the map, and a new constitution, etc.

tinybear · May 21, 2005, 06:38 am

All cosmetics. In substance Taiwan is already independent.

allen · May 21, 2005, 03:09 pm

Quote:

Quote by: tinybear

All cosmetics. In substance Taiwan is already independent.

maybe. But legal work is not trivial. For example, if you buy a house, having the key does not mean you are the owner of the house, but finishing all the legal work is more important.
For Taiwan, before it changes the name or the constitution, it still legally regards itself part of China. This is not what those separatists want.

castille · May 23, 2005, 11:09 am

If Taiwan is so independent, why are they called the REPUBLIC of China?

Hell, Taiwan even makes territorial claims based on their history of being part of China.

Furthermore, the same countries shouting for Taiwan's independence are the same countries who have far more oppressive policies than China. Maybe China should argue for independence of Hawaii, Chechnya, Northern Ireland, Gilbraltar?

tinybear · May 23, 2005, 12:10 pm

Sure, just let the people of those places decide. Hold a referendum and let everyone abide by the result.

castille · May 23, 2005, 12:40 pm

Quote:

Sure, just let the people of those places decide. Hold a referendum and let everyone abide by the result.

According to your logic, if everyone who lives in my house votes to become independent, my property should become an independent country.

tinybear · May 23, 2005, 12:49 pm

See? That's precisely the CCP's mindset. You think it's 'your house', 'your property' and that's why you're the boss. No it isn't your house, you know. It belongs to no one but the people and you have no right to rule them unless they say so.

castille · May 23, 2005, 02:11 pm

Quote:

Quote by: tinybear

See? That's precisely the CCP's mindset. You think it's 'your house', 'your property' and that's why you're the boss. No it isn't your house, you know. It belongs to no one but the people and you have no right to rule them unless they say so.

Actually it IS my house. I paid for the land, I paid for the building. It belongs to me.

But if you're advocating a "Peoples" argument, why not cast the vote to ALL Chinese and Taiwanese people? Ask everyone in China and Taiwan to vote on whether Taiwan should be independent.

tinybear · May 23, 2005, 02:14 pm

Sure. But first let the whole of China decide who should rule and whether CCP ought to step down. How's that?

By the way, how and when did you pay for the house and the land?

castille · May 23, 2005, 02:21 pm

Quote:

Quote by: tinybear

Sure. But first let the whole of China decide who should rule and whether CCP ought to step down. How's that?

I agree. But not now. Just look at Russia. But in future, yes I do want China to eventually return to an era where the people support their leaders completely.

Quote:

By the way, how and when did you pay for the house and the land?

With money. A few years ago.

tinybear · May 23, 2005, 02:25 pm

What about Russia? It wasn't democracy which almost bankrupted Russia. It was mismanagement and incompetence of the Yeltsin Administration.

castille · May 23, 2005, 10:50 pm

It was a rapid change to a completely different political system without implementing controls that screwed up their economy.

tinybear · May 24, 2005, 12:27 am

It was a rapid change to a new economic system without implementing controls that did it.

allen · May 24, 2005, 11:43 am

Quote:

Quote by: tinybear

What about Russia? It wasn't democracy which almost bankrupted Russia. It was mismanagement and incompetence of the Yeltsin Administration.

Sounds like democracy is an institution that takes credits for success but shifts blames for failure to others. A good marketing ploy when trying to export this product

Regarding Taiwan: Japan offically returned Taiwan to China in 1945. China is the owner of Taiwan island. Any status change of the ownership shall be approved by all citizens of whole China.

tinybear · May 24, 2005, 12:15 pm

As long as the government of China is chosen by all Chinese citizens, fine. Let's not put the cart before the horse, shall we?

May 23, 2005, 11:09 am	#29 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	If Taiwan is so independent, why are they called the REPUBLIC of China? Hell, Taiwan even makes territorial claims based on their history of being part of China. Furthermore, the same countries shouting for Taiwan's independence are the same countries who have far more oppressive policies than China. Maybe China should argue for independence of Hawaii, Chechnya, Northern Ireland, Gilbraltar? Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

May 23, 2005, 10:50 pm	#37 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	It was a rapid change to a completely different political system without implementing controls that screwed up their economy. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

May 20, 2005, 01:52 pm	#21 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 7,333	A very interesting article the contents of which, I think, reflect the truth. http://www.thestandard.com.hk/stdn/s.../GE20Df01.html

May 20, 2005, 02:45 pm	#22 (permalink) (top)
allen Igneous Magma Posts: 199	no, I don't think this article reflects the truth. Actually westerners seldom report issues squarely. If you can read articles written by Hongkong locals, you will be much closer to the truth. AFAIK, most people in HK don't want general elections, which means more tax and could probably hurt the economy. And Tung's quit fromt the top office is what the majority in HongKong want. But I do think CPP intervenes a lot in Hongkong. The "one country, two systems" CPP used to woo Taiwan is much looser than the one in Hongkong. But that term has been sabotaged so badly by Taiwan government that most Taiwanese frown upon hearing it, while few know the actual content of it. But in the long run, the room left for them is diminishing. When China gain enough power to conquer it, they probably have to accept a Hongkong version of "one country, two systems".

May 20, 2005, 02:51 pm	#23 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 7,333	Vines is a local. He's been in Hong Kong for a long time (despite being Caucasian).

May 20, 2005, 04:09 pm	#25 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 7,333	Good question. Actually, this whole Taiwan independence thing is just a political ploy by the President to win votes. And it succeeded. It's a long story and I'm getting kinda sleepy. I'll tell you all about it later. :)

May 21, 2005, 06:38 am	#27 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 7,333	All cosmetics. In substance Taiwan is already independent.

May 23, 2005, 12:10 pm	#30 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 7,333	Sure, just let the people of those places decide. Hold a referendum and let everyone abide by the result.

May 23, 2005, 12:49 pm	#32 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 7,333	See? That's precisely the CCP's mindset. You think it's 'your house', 'your property' and that's why you're the boss. No it isn't your house, you know. It belongs to no one but the people and you have no right to rule them unless they say so.

May 23, 2005, 02:14 pm	#34 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 7,333	Sure. But first let the whole of China decide who should rule and whether CCP ought to step down. How's that? By the way, how and when did you pay for the house and the land?

May 23, 2005, 02:25 pm	#36 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 7,333	What about Russia? It wasn't democracy which almost bankrupted Russia. It was mismanagement and incompetence of the Yeltsin Administration.

May 24, 2005, 12:27 am	#38 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 7,333	It was a rapid change to a new economic system without implementing controls that did it.

May 24, 2005, 12:15 pm	#40 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 7,333	As long as the government of China is chosen by all Chinese citizens, fine. Let's not put the cart before the horse, shall we?