Beheading Policy, Your President is Sick, America

[Pooeypants]

Quote by: Logjam But the bombs that we dropped in Japan ended the war. If we had not dropped them we would have invaded Japan. The Japanese would have fought tooth and nail. It's estimated by military historians that the battle for Japan would have lasted at least a year and a half, and would have cost 1 million American lives and 9 million Japanese. The bombs killed 60,000 in Hiroshima and 8,000 in Nagisaki. (I was privy to the secret after action documents.) So our bombs saved a million American lives and 8,932,000 Japanese lives. I think that the battle would have taken two years and cost many more Japanese than the estimates say. I know Japanese who were living in Japan at the time. One guy was a third grader. He told me that they were being taught how to hang themselves. The children were being taught that Marines ate children. His parents were being taught how to fight with sharpened sticks. Others were being armed with poorly made rifles, but they worked. I asked the Japanese gent (a famous San Francisco artist) what surprised him most about what happened after the war. He said that he was amazed at how friendly and the Marines were, and at how kindly they treated the children. Without the bombs the battle for Japan would have been a blood bath.

I'm not here to debate about the aftermath of the bombs but I hope your figure of only 8000 deaths in Nagasaki is a typo and you missed out a zero.

[Logjam]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel Because they would not join us in the illegal Iraqi war for profit? We need to leave and let them run their own government. We are only a magnet for violence. We have no right to be there. Changing the subject? Gosh its almost as if war is peace. :rolleyes:

You are of course, joking. If we stopped our support for the new Iraqi government the Baathists, Iranians and Syrians would be in there in a heart beat. They'd invade the Kurdish region; millions would die.

The Sunnis with the support of the Syrians would invade Bagdad and the new government would be overrun.

You are ignoring the fact that Saddam's organization was a very bad, and murderous government.

You are also ignoring that freedom is makes the best and happiest people. Slavery and dictatorships only breed discontent and starvation.

Remember: Freedom - good; slavery - bad. It's really pretty simple.

[Logjam]

Quote by: Pooeypants I'm not here to debate about the aftermath of the bombs but I hope your figure of only 8000 deaths in Nagasaki is a typo and you missed out a zero.

My friend, I was in a military school where we had the Top Secret reports made soon after the bombs hit. They guys who wrote them were there when the place was still smoking. They counted the dead.

The number killed in Nagasaki was 8,000; the number in Hiroshima was 60,000. The Japanese add all folks who have died in those towns since to the number killed. This is gives an incorrect number. The number reported today in Hiroshima is around 600,000 as I recall.

I studied these bombs for months. I also lived just outside of Hiroshima for a year (Iwakuni, Japan).

BTW: the reason for the low number of killed in Nagasaki was because the town was located in a valley. So the blast was channeled, even thought it was a bigger boom that was the one in Hiroshima. Hiroshima was a huge river delta; very flat open ground. The blast went off at 1300 feet and the fire ball was unrestricted by topographical obstacles. Not so in Nagasaki.

We killed 130,000 in Tokyo using conventional incendary bombs; about twice as many as were killed by the nukes. The pilots who dropped all of those incendary bombs said that they could smell the hair buring in the cockpits of the B-29's.

[RickSp]

This is way off topic, but your figures do not agree with the historical record.

Effects of the Atomic Bomb (1945) The United States Bombing Survey

The Survey believes the dead at Hiroshima to have been between 70,000 and 80,000, with an equal number injured; at Nagasaki over 35,000 dead and somewhat more than that injured...

The city of Nagasaki was the target of the world's second atomic bomb attack at 11:02 a. m. on 9 August 1945, when the north of the city was destroyed and an estimated 70,000 people killed outright with another 70,000 doomed to die of bomb-related causes in the decades that followed. The Nagasaki bomb was larger than the bomb dropped on Hiroshima three days earlier and was a plutonium bomb, whereas the Hiroshima bomb was a uranium bomb. It was a much more explosive bomb (22 kilotons of TNT as opposed to 13), though the destructive effect was not as great as at Hiroshima owing to Nagasaki's mountainous topography.

THE ATOMIC BOMBING OF NAGASAKI

In 1953, a report by the US Strategic Bombing Survey put the number of deaths at 35,000, wounded at 60,000 and 5,000 missing. In 1960, the Japanese put the number of dead at Nagasaki at 20,000 and the number of wounded at 50,000. Later, the Nagasaki Prefectural Office put the figure for deaths alone at 87,000 with 70% of the city's industrial zone destroyed.

Nagasaki - August 1945

As I said, way off topic.

[OberonDOtherseid]

My point was that people of different race died, not just asians. That it took place in Japan, the Japanese was addressed by the US, the US was held accountable (the US held ITSELF accountable) to the Japanese because it was an attack on their soil. The twin towers attack took more than american lives, yes, but it was an attack on our soil.

[The Analog Kid]

I do.

Not very surprising.

What evidence do we have?

How much more evidence do you need when he's admitted it?

Who are all his accomplices?

In regards to 9/11 KSM was the mastermind who devised the plan. He's been caught.

I see a lot of cover-ups involved in 911. Including, the stand down of NORAD and the hasty removal of steel from WTC, to Asia before it could be forensically examined. Hundreds of Unanswered Questions.

This is all just nonsense.

Norad was not told to stand down.

No Stand-Down Order
CLAIM: No fighter jets were scrambled from any of the 28 Air Force bases within close range of the four hijacked flights. "On 11 September Andrews had two squadrons of fighter jets with the job of protecting the skies over Washington D.C.," says the Web site emperors-clothes.com. "They failed to do their job." "There is only one explanation for this," writes Mark R. Elsis of StandDown.net. "Our Air Force was ordered to Stand Down on 9/11."

FACT: On 9/11 there were only 14 fighter jets on alert in the contiguous 48 states. No computer network or alarm automatically alerted the North American Air Defense Command (NORAD) of missing planes. "They [civilian Air Traffic Control, or ATC] had to pick up the phone and literally dial us," says Maj. Douglas Martin, public affairs officer for NORAD. Boston Center, one of 22 Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regional ATC facilities, called NORAD's Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) three times: at 8:37 am EST to inform NEADS that Flight 11 was hijacked; at 9:21 am to inform the agency, mistakenly, that Flight 11 was headed for Washington (the plane had hit the North Tower 35 minutes earlier); and at 9:41 am to (erroneously) identify Delta Air Lines Flight 1989 from Boston as a possible hijacking. The New York ATC called NEADS at 9:03 am to report that United Flight 175 had been hijacked--the same time the plane slammed into the South Tower. Within minutes of that first call from Boston Center, NEADS scrambled two F-15s from Otis Air Force Base in Falmouth, Mass., and three F-16s from Langley Air National Guard Base in Hampton, Va. None of the fighters got anywhere near the pirated planes.

The rest here:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...tml?page=3&c=y




What with the steel? What is it you are disputing here, that airliners didn't bring down the towers? That the steel was faulty?

It all adds up to at least complicity, if not outright conspiracy to commit, and commission of heinous crimes against Americans and world citizens.

Nonsense. You engage in one logical fallacy after another and provide nothing to support your assertions.

If you are going to take Usama to court, you have to get his accomplices too, Right? Thats why they dont want a trial.

Why do they have to get his accomplices?
Who are his accomplices?
What credible evidence do you have to support your charges?

It would have to be a war crimes court, like Nuremberg. It would have to be a world court because the victims of 911 were not only Americans. The right to a jury of peers should be afforded Osama and all the Americans involved, too.

It does not have to be in a world court. In fact, the world court is dangerous. Currently the chief justice of the World Court is a Chinese Communist. Do you trust communists?

No WMDs? No Problem......... We can just un-BOMB Iraq. Put $300 BILLION back into our National Treasury. Bring 1600 US soldiers back to life. Bring 150,000 INNOCENT Iraqis back to life, and fire haliburton, because we just UN-Bombed Iraq.

Can you tell us why 1441 was passed by the UN?

Was the President lying when he made this statement?

"If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow." "Some day, some way, I guarantee you, he'll use the arsenal."

Restore our civil rights,

Where did they go?

because the war on terror is a charade.

Actually, whats got you so upset is that it precisely NOT a charade. Liberals like to talk tough but when it comes down to actually acting they sit on the sidelines.

Last but not least, Impeach bush, for high treason.

What treason did Bush commit?
Provide your evidence.

Run all complicit Republicans out of Washington DC. FOREVER. Gitmotize every last one of em. After a fair trial of course.

Does this also include all the Democrats that also voted for the authorization to use force against Iraq and made numerous statements during the runup to the war and before Bush even took office?

Or is it that Democrats can do no wrong according to you?

Because they would not join us in the illegal Iraqi war for profit?

I responded to this in a previous post in this thread, which you apparantly didn't have the courage to respond to.
Do you know what the Oil For Food Scandal is?
Which nations and governments, government officials and high ranking citizens were paid off by Saddam with Oil futures?

We need to leave and let them run their own government. We are only a magnet for violence. We have no right to be there.

Do you believe less Iraqi people would die if we picked up and left immediately?

What historical evidence do you have to support this assertion?

Vietnam maybe?

Liberal fool, military record embellishing, and failed Presidential candidate John Kerry predicted that the resulting death of Vietnamese would be minimal if we pulled out of Vietnam.
Of course, the results were completely the opposite. A slaughter occurred after we pulled out, not to mention the even greater slaughter that occurred next door in Cambodia.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: The Analog Kid What treason did Bush commit? Provide your evidence. Does this also include all the Democrats that also voted for the authorization to use force against Iraq and made numerous statements during the runup to the war and before Bush even took office? Or is it that Democrats can do no wrong according to you?

It is very easy to prove Bush has commited treason. So has every other elected official who swears an oath (mandatory to serve in public service) to protect the constitution from all enemies, foreign, and domestic, and then fail to to so.] The constitution is being trampled by our so called representative government, and it has been for many years.

(proof) http://www.wealth4freedom.com/truth/waract.htm
http://www.barefootsworld.net/war_ep.html
http://www.barefootsworld.net/war_ep1.html


The situation in the U.S. today is grim. Why hs no President since 1933 repealed the War Powers Act? Why has no Senator, or Congressman demanded the repeal of this usurpation of power from the Executive branch? Why have they not brought this to the people to vote on a referendum?


The simple fact is, if you are elected to a postion in our Federal government, you are complicit in the violation of the constitution by default. Even the Senate (Senate Report 93-549) Report of 1973 reached that conclusion.

[Logjam]

Quote by: RickSp This is way off topic, but your figures do not agree with the historical record. Effects of the Atomic Bomb (1945) The United States Bombing Survey THE ATOMIC BOMBING OF NAGASAKI Nagasaki - August 1945 As I said, way off topic.

I really can't debate your numbers; as they may be correct. I'm working from my memory of an event that happened in 1971 - 1973. At the time I was in a nuclear delivery training program. It was very detailed, and very hush, hush.

We could not remove anything from the classroom. We were followed around when off duty to see that we didn't pass any secrets to anyone, even by mistake.

The 8,000 dead number was, as I recall, the one that we were given in that class; but it is possible that my memory is mistaken.

I do know that the numbers that are being passed around nowadays are much larger than are the ones that we read about. I also recall clearly that it was discussed that many more Japanese were killed in the convential bombings in Tokyo.

Furthermore, I talked to several people who were in Hiroshima when the bombs hit. One guy was sitting at an anti-aircraft gun just behind a hill from the fire ball.

But, no matter what the actual numbers of dead were, it was still the right thing to do, as I stated earlier.

[Cephus]

Quote by: tinybear I'd disagree. The man mocks our legal system and does not submit to its jurisdiction. The way I see it is he is not entitled to be tried under it, nor does he wish to be. Besides, let's face it: does anyone doubt his guilt?

That's irrelevant. We have a justice system. It doesn't apply to just the people we feel like allowing it to, it applies to EVERYONE. If we kill OBL in cold blood, that makes us no better than he is.

Besides, who doubts OJ Simpson's guilt, but he's still free.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: Logjam The 8,000 dead number was, as I recall, the one that we were given in that class; but it is possible that my memory is mistaken.

Maybe thats the number of people that were NOT vaporized. The number of bodies found.

[tinybear]

OJ's free 'cos there's affirmative action even in our courtrooms. Wait, what am I talking about? Affirmative action is sanctioned by our highest court! Silly me.

[gr8fuldaniel]

I am avoiding Analog due to insults in another thread. If anyone else wants to respond to his bullshit, feel free.

[tinybear]

Insults occur in any heated debate. It's no biggie. Why avoid him?

[gr8fuldaniel]

Because I will want to slip in insults, better to walk away.
I dont want to spiral to his level.
An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.
I want to be a peacenik and post this kind of stuff:
(Found on Toward a Participatory Worldview)

The Litany of the Circle Every part of this earth is sacred, every shining pine needle, every sandy shore, every mist in the dark woods, every clearing and humming insect is holy. The rocky crest, the juices of the meadow, the beasts, and all the people-- All belong to the same family. Teach your children that the earth is our mother. Whatever befalls the earth befalls the children of the earth. The water's murmur is the voice of our father's father. We are part of the earth, and the earth is part of us. The air is precious, for all of us share the same breath. This we know; the earth does not belong to us; we belong to the earth. This we know; all things are connected, like the blood which unites one family. All things are connected. Our God is the same God, whose compassion is equal for all. For we did not weave the web of life; we are merely a strand in it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. .....attributed to Chief Seattle --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[The Analog Kid]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel I am avoiding Analog due to insults in another thread. If anyone else wants to respond to his bullshit, feel free.

Oh how cowardly.

You slander the entire right, call them Nazi's, and you complain that someone is picking on you?

Maybe you will start choosing your words a little more wisely.

[Prometheus]

[Logjam]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel Maybe thats the number of people that were NOT vaporized. The number of bodies found.

Some people were indeed vaporized by the bombs. But I don't know the number; I doubt anyone does.

Still, however; if we hadn't have dropped them we would have invaded and the deaths experienced by both sides would be many more than those who were killed by the two bombs.

[Logjam]

Quote by: OberonDOtherseid My point was that people of different race died, not just asians. That it took place in Japan, the Japanese was addressed by the US, the US was held accountable (the US held ITSELF accountable) to the Japanese because it was an attack on their soil. The twin towers attack took more than american lives, yes, but it was an attack on our soil.

I really don't understand the point you are trying to make. Are you insinuating that we dropped the bombs as a racial cleansing event?

If that's the case, it wasn't. We dropped those two cookers to end the war. We were successful.

Also we worked the peace in Japan extremely well. It didn't take the Japanese long to forget their hatred of our troops because we treated them so well. They understood that we did not round up scads of them and murder them, as did the Japanese in China and the Philippines. They would have done the same here, if they would have won the war; after all; where ever they were victorious they murdered millions.