Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

RebelWithanAK · Sep 6, 2003, 10:39 pm

Well, I make no qualms about being biased in the whole Israeli/Palestinian affair, but now with Mahmoud Abbas' ultimatum and subsequent resignation, the peace process is once again an act of Israeli masturbation. Palestinians don't want anybody else but Arafat, Israelis would rather bomb Arafat's home and shoot his advisors than talk to him. Is Bush's policy any better than Clinton's? Are we really doing our part to decrease terrorism? What's worse, bulldozing people's homes or blowing up nightclubs? Where does "defense" end and "offense" begin?

G. Adams · Sep 6, 2003, 10:56 pm

At the wealth in ones pocket and the creed of ones religion.

GreatWyrm of Babylon · Sep 7, 2003, 12:51 am

Palistine is not interested in peace, only dead Jews...

fedfem · Sep 7, 2003, 01:29 am

Palestinians do want peace and they want dignity too. I hate what goes on over there. I truly hoped Abbas was going to make a difference. We(US Gov.) have made it worse. I hope things do not get worse before we get a new Administration or the shit is going to hit the fan.

RebelWithanAK · Sep 7, 2003, 02:13 am

Whaddaya expect when a foreign power dictates your "leaders" for you? That's as if China were to decide that Bush was too much of a inconvenience and ordered us to vote in... I dunno, Pat Buchanan as president under threat of invasion. There'd be rioting in the streets! The US is doing the same thing with propping up corrupt Iraqi expatriates in Baghdad and watching as the Iraqis demonstrate viciously and oust them. Peace processes don't work that way.

einned · Sep 7, 2003, 02:38 am

Abbas was bound to be a failure. He had no power because Arafat is still the palestinian leader. A solution to the middle east tragedy isn't as easy as the US thought it would be. I don't see the situation changing with the way things are going at the moment.
Maybe there isn't a solution to the problem.

G. Adams · Sep 8, 2003, 08:44 am

No side is prepared to hold out for peace, both are eager to jump on any excuse to start killing again. If you look at Northern Ireland, our government didn't keep sending tanks and bulldozers everytime the IRA set off a bomb. The Israeli government has to stand by the peace process for longer than one or two attacks. If the Israeli government didn't retaliate, then the Palestinian people, not the militants, would see that the Isr. gov is not trying to eradicate them, and then the militants would lose support. Its only because the lives of Palestinians are so precarious that they support terrorist attacks. And, as anyone who knows their guerilla warfare, terrorists cannot win if they do not have the support of the population.

RebelWithanAK · Sep 8, 2003, 01:33 pm

That would imply that the Palestinians are the aggressors; as with the IRA. I still believe that even though they resort to terrorism, their claims still have some level of merit. Too bad we can't talk with terrorists, only fund them. =p

rmnunez · Sep 22, 2003, 02:10 am

Palestinian Radicals:

>Even Israel's pervasive intelligence services are uncertain whether the Infants Underground and its allies are fringe groups of extremist settlers or the stirrings of a Jewish-style Hamas.

>But the conviction on Wednesday of three settlers for trying to blow up a Palestinian girls' school in east Jerusalem last year reveals the lengths to which a marginalised, but apparently growing, band of militant settlers will go.

>The convicted men - Shlomo Dvir, Yarden Morag and Ofer Gamliel - were caught as they set the timer to detonate a bomb at 7.25am, just as hundreds of pupils were flooding in to class. The judges said many Arab children would have been slaughtered if the attack had not been foiled.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2...1046049,00.html

xm.bundun · Sep 22, 2003, 02:56 am

Quote:

Originally posted by G. Adams@09-08-2003 08:44 AM
No side is prepared to hold out for peace, both are eager to jump on any excuse to start killing again.

i agree...i don't think any 'roadmap to peace' will work while both sides are so fiercely religious. i'm not saying one should adopt the other's religion, i just think that there is little outside influence (the US gov) can do to soothe the situation.

there is a possible solution although it would never fly, and anyone who tried to promote it would be shot down quickly: just put a big fence around the whole area and not allow anyone in or out until one side has killed off all the others, or they've finally resolved their differences. this sounds like such a barbaric solution, but with neither side willing to budge an inch, nothing else will likely work.

ps. i'm not proposing they do that fence thing, so don't start flaming me for it. :D

xm.bretton · Sep 22, 2003, 03:14 am

hahaha big fence eh? sounds good.

xm.bundun · Sep 22, 2003, 03:20 am

yes, a big chainlink one...

Section 8 · Sep 22, 2003, 11:39 pm

In my opinion both Sharon and Arafat must go. The recent terrorist bombings are do nothing to strengthen the fundamentalist cause. Instead they are strengthining the resolve of Israel and allowing more hardliners like Sharon to be elected. Also, don't think that Israelis are without their far shair of terrorism. Both Israel's and Palestine's hands are in dipping into the pool of bloodshed. Israelis sometimes execute innocent Palestinians, and starve the Palestinian territories. Of course I'm not saying that Palestinians are saints, but that does not excuse murder.

Have Fun
Shalom

G. Adams · Sep 23, 2003, 06:25 pm

This isn't to do with the peace process, just palestinian tactics. Is it just me who thinks suicide bombing is absurd, why kill yourself when you could live to set off another ten bombs?? All the experience and training goes up in one big blast, lost forever.

RebelWithanAK · Sep 23, 2003, 07:59 pm

Because, G. Adams, it's actually quite an effective tactic used by nationalists to oust the military powers of liberal democracies - you can't talk them out of it, you can't enforce military crackdowns on them (that only makes it worse), you really can't do anything but leave, which is what they want you to do. All morality aside, such extremist guerilla fighting helped tremendously to oust the Israelis from Lebanon and the Americans from Vietnam. It's all about shock value and the lack of one's convictions on their own safety.

Section 8 · Sep 23, 2003, 08:14 pm

Adams, contrary to popular belief suicide bombing's main goal isn't killing. It is creating fear, which they think will eventually lead to their opponents giving in.

Have Fun
Shalom

Fallen Angel · Sep 23, 2003, 10:18 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Section 8@09-23-2003 08:14 PM
Adams, contrary to popular belief suicide bombing's main goal isn't killing. It is creating fear, which they think will eventually lead to their opponents giving in.

Have Fun
Shalom

By killing people they are creating fear, don't you think?
Killing Jews and Israelis is their main objective, fear is anatural consequence of this whether they intended it or not.

Section 8 · Sep 24, 2003, 12:26 am

FA their main objective is to establish a Palestinian state, and purge Jews from that area.

Have Fun
Shalom

Fallen Angel · Sep 24, 2003, 01:45 am

Yeah, by killing them all.

G. Adams · Sep 24, 2003, 09:12 am

I'm not that simplistic that I miss the fear factor, but it seems like a fools tactic to use, when that one person, now dead, could explode many, many more bombs instead of one. Wouldn't ten times the bombs being currently set off create an even greater sense of fear?

Sep 6, 2003, 10:39 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Well, I make no qualms about being biased in the whole Israeli/Palestinian affair, but now with Mahmoud Abbas' ultimatum and subsequent resignation, the peace process is once again an act of Israeli masturbation. Palestinians don't want anybody else but Arafat, Israelis would rather bomb Arafat's home and shoot his advisors than talk to him. Is Bush's policy any better than Clinton's? Are we really doing our part to decrease terrorism? What's worse, bulldozing people's homes or blowing up nightclubs? Where does "defense" end and "offense" begin? . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Sep 6, 2003, 10:56 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	At the wealth in ones pocket and the creed of ones religion. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Sep 7, 2003, 02:13 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Whaddaya expect when a foreign power dictates your "leaders" for you? That's as if China were to decide that Bush was too much of a inconvenience and ordered us to vote in... I dunno, Pat Buchanan as president under threat of invasion. There'd be rioting in the streets! The US is doing the same thing with propping up corrupt Iraqi expatriates in Baghdad and watching as the Iraqis demonstrate viciously and oust them. Peace processes don't work that way. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Sep 7, 2003, 02:38 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
einned Sedimentary Rock Location: The Netherlands Posts: 24	Abbas was bound to be a failure. He had no power because Arafat is still the palestinian leader. A solution to the middle east tragedy isn't as easy as the US thought it would be. I don't see the situation changing with the way things are going at the moment. Maybe there isn't a solution to the problem. A runner must run with dreams in his heart, not money in his pocket. Emil Zatopek

Sep 8, 2003, 08:44 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	No side is prepared to hold out for peace, both are eager to jump on any excuse to start killing again. If you look at Northern Ireland, our government didn't keep sending tanks and bulldozers everytime the IRA set off a bomb. The Israeli government has to stand by the peace process for longer than one or two attacks. If the Israeli government didn't retaliate, then the Palestinian people, not the militants, would see that the Isr. gov is not trying to eradicate them, and then the militants would lose support. Its only because the lives of Palestinians are so precarious that they support terrorist attacks. And, as anyone who knows their guerilla warfare, terrorists cannot win if they do not have the support of the population. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Sep 7, 2003, 12:51 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
GreatWyrm of Babylon Avatar of Tiamut Location: Dallas, Texas (Irving) Posts: 848	Palistine is not interested in peace, only dead Jews...

Sep 7, 2003, 01:29 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
fedfem Igneous Magma Location: Northeastern, USA Posts: 606	Palestinians do want peace and they want dignity too. I hate what goes on over there. I truly hoped Abbas was going to make a difference. We(US Gov.) have made it worse. I hope things do not get worse before we get a new Administration or the shit is going to hit the fan.

Sep 8, 2003, 01:33 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	That would imply that the Palestinians are the aggressors; as with the IRA. I still believe that even though they resort to terrorism, their claims still have some level of merit. Too bad we can't talk with terrorists, only fund them. =p . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Sep 22, 2003, 02:10 am	#9 (permalink) (top)
rmnunez Volcanic Erupter Location: Mexico City Posts: 4,772	Palestinian Radicals: >Even Israel's pervasive intelligence services are uncertain whether the Infants Underground and its allies are fringe groups of extremist settlers or the stirrings of a Jewish-style Hamas. >But the conviction on Wednesday of three settlers for trying to blow up a Palestinian girls' school in east Jerusalem last year reveals the lengths to which a marginalised, but apparently growing, band of militant settlers will go. >The convicted men - Shlomo Dvir, Yarden Morag and Ofer Gamliel - were caught as they set the timer to detonate a bomb at 7.25am, just as hundreds of pupils were flooding in to class. The judges said many Arab children would have been slaughtered if the attack had not been foiled. http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2...1046049,00.html Et semel emissum volat irrevocabile verbum. Raúl M. Núñez Sheriff

Sep 22, 2003, 03:14 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
xm.bretton Molten Ash Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 89	hahaha big fence eh? sounds good. xm.bretton xhalation.com

Sep 22, 2003, 03:20 am	#12 (permalink) (top)
xm.bundun Sedimentary Rock Location: behind you...RUN! Posts: 14	yes, a big chainlink one... kthxbai -bundun

Sep 22, 2003, 11:39 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	In my opinion both Sharon and Arafat must go. The recent terrorist bombings are do nothing to strengthen the fundamentalist cause. Instead they are strengthining the resolve of Israel and allowing more hardliners like Sharon to be elected. Also, don't think that Israelis are without their far shair of terrorism. Both Israel's and Palestine's hands are in dipping into the pool of bloodshed. Israelis sometimes execute innocent Palestinians, and starve the Palestinian territories. Of course I'm not saying that Palestinians are saints, but that does not excuse murder. Have Fun Shalom

Sep 23, 2003, 06:25 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	This isn't to do with the peace process, just palestinian tactics. Is it just me who thinks suicide bombing is absurd, why kill yourself when you could live to set off another ten bombs?? All the experience and training goes up in one big blast, lost forever. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Sep 23, 2003, 07:59 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Because, G. Adams, it's actually quite an effective tactic used by nationalists to oust the military powers of liberal democracies - you can't talk them out of it, you can't enforce military crackdowns on them (that only makes it worse), you really can't do anything but leave, which is what they want you to do. All morality aside, such extremist guerilla fighting helped tremendously to oust the Israelis from Lebanon and the Americans from Vietnam. It's all about shock value and the lack of one's convictions on their own safety. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Sep 23, 2003, 08:14 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	Adams, contrary to popular belief suicide bombing's main goal isn't killing. It is creating fear, which they think will eventually lead to their opponents giving in. Have Fun Shalom

Sep 24, 2003, 12:26 am	#18 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	FA their main objective is to establish a Palestinian state, and purge Jews from that area. Have Fun Shalom

Sep 24, 2003, 01:45 am	#19 (permalink) (top)
Fallen Angel Igneous Magma Location: Sydney,Australia. Posts: 333	Yeah, by killing them all.

Sep 24, 2003, 09:12 am	#20 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	I'm not that simplistic that I miss the fear factor, but it seems like a fools tactic to use, when that one person, now dead, could explode many, many more bombs instead of one. Wouldn't ten times the bombs being currently set off create an even greater sense of fear? Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill