The 2nd Amendment - What does it mean?

[DoloresIbarruri]

Quote by: Milton Bradley The constitution is not holy to me, it is the rule of law. The morons trying impose the rest of the legal code on the rest us had damned well better be living up to their end of the bargain. I refuse to be the only one expected to obey the laws. As the laws now stand, the government is out of control, and sseemingly above the law on every level. We are only attempting to hold the States to the documents the signed to become a State in the Union, and public official to their sworn oath of office.

Laws are flexible enough to be changed when they are unsuitable.

Who said that you were being expected to be alone in obeying laws?

[DoloresIbarruri]

Quote by: Milton Bradley As the laws now stand, the government is out of control, and sseemingly above the law on every level.

"Government" is what happens whenever a group of people get together and decide to collaborate. It's just a word which describes what people do to create an order of some sort within which the group can thrive.

Some people would like the rest of us to believe that "goverment" is somehow this tangible, evil thing. Where they got this notion, is a puzzle. What's funny is that the ones most using the concept of government as an evil entity, are in government and on the public dole, for example, Tom DeLay, John Ashcroft (now somewhere singing hymns), G W Bush, Cheney, etc. etc. ad infinitum, all on busy munching down at the public trough.

It'd be funny if it weren't so evil.

[MerlinsByte]

It'd be funny if it weren't so evil.

Mb writes…..Well, well doloresIbarruri, we do have another morsel in Contention. I do believe that government is inherently evil. For at least two reasons. One…. A government may begin as an benevolent enity to unite its citizens for a common goal. Unfortunately this quickly degenerates to this enity becoming a tool of control and as an extractive mechanism to rob its citizenry of the very rights and possessions that it was formed to protect.

Second....(hint.. flame throwers ya rabid anti religious types) Government is spiritually evil. Man was designed to be free; government was designed to control at least in part. Government by its force of organized citizenry is capable of destruction on a global scale, or I propose a universal scale. This unification of millions is a power that has its place in god(s) and the nemesis of god’s manifest destiny for man.

mb


could it be......SATAN? (the church lady SNL)

[DoloresIbarruri]

Quote by: MerlinsByte Mb writes…..Well, well doloresIbarruri, we do have another morsel in Contention. I do believe that government is inherently evil. For at least two reasons. One…. A government may begin as an benevolent enity to unite its citizens for a common goal. Unfortunately this quickly degenerates to this enity becoming a tool of control and as an extractive mechanism to rob its citizenry of the very rights and possessions that it was formed to protect. Second....(hint.. flame throwers ya rabid anti religious types) on Government is spiritually evil. Man was designed to be free; government was designed to control at least in part. Government by its force of organized citizenry is capable of destruction on a global scale, or I propose a universal scale. This unification of millions is a power that has its place in god(s) and the nemesis of god’s manifest destiny for man. mb

:rolleyes: I didn't mean that government is evil. Did I give you the impression that I was a right wing extremist Christian zealot? I'm sorry if I did.

Is government evil? Well, government is as evil as baths and showers are evil. In other words, it's neither good nor evil. It just is.

Government is what happens when a people decide that chaos bites donkey d*** and that nobody can live in peace when chaos reigns supreme.

Government is what happens when any group of people, regardless of how small or how large, decide that they need some form or organization or their lives will continue to be crap.

To say that government is evil, is like saying that something innocuous is evil. This is the only country where I hear people saying that the idea of "government" is evil. When I first heard that, I was shocked. I sincerely thought people who said this were joking with me. They weren't. I later found out who these people were. Now I can identify them easily. I have GOPdar. :)

But to return to what happens without government. Chaos is a nightmare. Children do not thrive in a chaotic environment. A chaotic environment might be ideal for males who remain in a suspended state of adolescence throughout their entire life, pretending they're some sort of Tarzan in a play jungle. However, life involves the family unit and the family unit does not do well in chaos.

What is comforting to me is, however, that the right wing Christian zealot types that are screaming about government being bad, are usually the ones slurping greedily at the public trough, and busy running for office so they can be part of that government they pretend to criticize. A bigger hypocrisy I've not yet seen. Liars, all of them.

One has to be in a frikkin' coma to see these liars living off public money while badmouthing it.

[Cephus]

Quote by: DoloresIbarruri Laws are flexible enough to be changed when they are unsuitable. Who said that you were being expected to be alone in obeying laws?

I'm sure the founding fathers would be disgusted at the way special interest groups are using and abusing the Constitution and other historic writings to justify just about every ridiculous thing under the sun. Nobody expects modern-day laws to be perfect, why do they think that the Constitution was ever intended to last forever and ever as the ultimate rule of law? The world is growing and evolving and changing in ways that the founding fathers could never have imagined, why in the world would the concepts and ideas that shaped their world over 200 years ago still make sense or apply today?

But try suggesting that to the NRA or other pro-gun groups and you'll have a fight on your hands. But they are hypocrites to the very core. They claim that the Constitution can't be changed, but as we have seen in this very thread, they then go on to alter it subtely (or not all that subtely) into something that there simply is no evidence the founding fathers would have accepted or wanted.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: DoloresIbarruri But to return to what happens without government. Chaos is a nightmare. Children do not thrive in a chaotic environment. A chaotic environment might be ideal for males who remain in a suspended state of adolescence throughout their entire life, pretending they're some sort of Tarzan in a play jungle. However, life involves the family unit and the family unit does not do well in chaos.

First off, GOPdar, that was priceless. I laughed out loud, twice.


I would argue that the world I walk out into when I leave my house is much closer to chaos then constitutional government would be. Its a corporate feeding frenzy, and the only bottom line is profitability to the stockholders. In Ohio, my rights are being compromised at every level, manufacturing jobs outsourced, and illegal kickbacks of MY money to greedy businessmen who sell my rights to the State.


I also hate the way you put parental resposibility onto the village, instead of with the parent where it belongs. The "family" , as you put it, is not mentioned in the constitution, or the Bill of Rights, and there is no implied, or garunteed insulation for the family from the real world. It is the parents responsibility to provide a safe place for children to grow up, not the community. If you are worried about your children being offended you need to spend your time perenting them, and stop blaming others for not making your bed for you.


Nice way to derail the thread with all the differnt tangents. I know it is because your side has lost this arguement, and any other authoritarian crap you can dig up will be piled neatly after this post to make you feel like you have had the last word.


Pile it on.

[Osborn F Enready]

Dolores, while I appreciate your opinions about how "some people" cling to the constitution as something holy, I also have to laugh at how you don't really get the whole point.

The government, is exactly as you said, a way for a group of people to form a complex society. Well, the constitution was a collaborative effort of some of the greatest minds of the time on forming complex societies that were for the BENEFIT of the people, instead of the other way around. The Magna Carta, the Articles of Confederation, and the minds of men who sought to have structure, with the least amount of federal control possible, are what led to the creation of the Constitution of the United States. Do I believe it is some "holy" document? Yes!!!! It is a contract, a promise, a set of RULES for the people as much a set of LIMITATIONS on the government.

IT is a contract in the sense that the people, who were as free as any men had known while still having a complex society, AGREED to create a government with explicit limitations on that government. In order to have a "limitation", there is also a cost if that limitation is crossed over, or disregarded altogether. That cost, was specified in the 2nd amendment. The people, being an armed populace(having just WON A REVOLT AGAINST A TYRANNICAL GOVERNMENT BY FORCE) was a specification in the constitution as the ultimate check, in a checks and balances designed system.

“I own that I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.”
-Thomas Jefferson

“That government is best which governs least, because its people discipline themselves.”
Thomas Jefferson

“Experience teaches us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficent.”
-Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis, in a 1928 decision

“To say that any people are not fit for freedom, is to make poverty their choice, and to say they had rather be loaded with taxes than not.”
-Thomas Paine, 1792


It allowed the people, to decide if the cost of possible death, maiming, injury, imprisonment, or other dastardly result was deemed "REASONABLE" compared to living in compliance with an utterly corrupt system, they had the ultimate RIGHT of gathering in defiance to literally topple the existing system, in the effort to again start fresh from a clean slate.

Its just like your hard disk in your computer. If you have a fresh clean disk, and are consistent about only downloading safe material, your system works great. If you get a virus, most people would automatically try to remove, or have removed the virus while not trying to disturb the majority of the data. However, if the virus is devious and is a trojan horse type virus, sometimes the only option is to start afresh, and literally lose irreplacable data.

Would you use your computer very much if you had to close pop-up windows every three seconds? NO, which requires the ability to remove ALL corruption, which can only be done one way, to write the drive with 1's and 0's and reformat completely. This requires a new system install.

Would you use your computer, or the internet if you couldn't get rid of viruses, EVER, once your machine aquired one?

Well, I wouldn't abide, or obey, or support a government, that doesn't abide by its contract, which is still in effect regardless of what laws are passed, unless they are done in the manner proscribed in the Constitution. This puts us squarely to the case of the second amendment. When and if, the people decide to muster, to demand a public redress of grievance to the Constitutional subversion current and past politicians have perpetrated upon the citizens of this nation, and this demand is not met with justice to the appeasement of the people, there will be people, such as I, who would rather die, and take as many of my enemy out with me than live under their rule of oppressive, servitude.

Look, please, at the Declaration of Independence. After looking at that magnificent piece of work, remember that it only took 1/3 of the population of the entire nation to actually battle in the revolution to win. Look again, at what exactly prompted those men to risk so much, hell, risk EVERYTHING including their lives as well as their famillies, loved ones and friends and brothers-in-arms.

The security that they paid for with their lives, is what allowed you to create your opinion that the security you have so long enjoyed and never NOT known, is not really all that important, and put to the level of marginalization that you have so adequately expressed in your anti-constitutional sentiment.

It is the mind that cannot conceive revolution, that will face it. That is a logical prediction if you have ever studied any history of the planet earth over the time man has inhabited it.

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.”
-John F. Kennedy, 1962

“Logical consequences are the scarecrows of fools and the beacons of wise men.”
-Thomas Henry Huxley (1825 - 1895)

“It is natural for man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts ... For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth, to know the worst, and to provide for it.”
-Patrick Henry

[Mia]

Quote by: DoloresIbarruri I have GOPdar.

Ummm...the GOP isn't against government.

Quote by: DoloresIbarruri the right wing Christian zealot types that are screaming about government being bad

Again, not a group known for railing against government, unless you mean taxes. These people love to legislate against all of our rights through the government. They are heavily into mandating how the rest of us should live.

I'm really confused about your viewpoint here.

[MerlinsByte]

Mb writes…..Well, well doloresIbarruri, we do have another morsel in Contention. I do believe that government is inherently evil.

mb writes...Delores I was saying that we disagree mmmm’ somewhat. Disagreement isn’t so bad.

BY ...To say that government is evil, is like saying that something innocuous is evil. This is the only country where I hear people saying that the idea of "government" is evil.

Was the government of Nazi Germany in 1947 evil? Our country was born of revolution from what we perceived as intolerable repression. We considered England's sorta evil. However I think that you are referring to my comment that a government can be what I said was spiritually evil?

What is comforting to me is, however, that the right wing Christian zealot types that are screaming about government being bad, are usually the ones slurping greedily at the public trough, and busy running for office so they can be part of that government they pretend to criticize.

mb writes....Most right wing mainstream Christians are pro government, repulsively so. I am not a traditional Christian by a long shot but I still love Jesus. (and accept him and God or GID God the intelligent designer, as my lord and will serve his will as written in the NT).

And remember, I said government begins as a good thing then as mans nature becomes manifest it becomes corrupted/evil.

mb

[DoloresIbarruri]

Quote by: Cephus I'm sure the founding fathers would be disgusted at the way special interest groups are using and abusing the Constitution and other historic writings to justify just about every ridiculous thing under the sun. Nobody expects modern-day laws to be perfect, why do they think that the Constitution was ever intended to last forever and ever as the ultimate rule of law? The world is growing and evolving and changing in ways that the founding fathers could never have imagined, why in the world would the concepts and ideas that shaped their world over 200 years ago still make sense or apply today? But try suggesting that to the NRA or other pro-gun groups and you'll have a fight on your hands. But they are hypocrites to the very core. They claim that the Constitution can't be changed, but as we have seen in this very thread, they then go on to alter it subtely (or not all that subtely) into something that there simply is no evidence the founding fathers would have accepted or wanted.

Very true. Re-writing history is something that is being done by right wing Christian zealots in this country, and there are mega-millions of dollars being spent on this re-writing. They attribute new, inaccurate and erroneous meanings to the Constitution which would make the very founders squirm, but which fit perfectly with the Christian zealot-Republican ideology.

Not only do these people attribute new, utterly erroneous meanings to the 2nd Amendment, but they are also waging all-out war on the founders' very careful plan to leave all religions out of our government, so that what happened in Europe in olden times would not happen again: a religious autocracy. These people DO want a religious autocracy, with the Christian evangelical religion at the core.

I see the Christian evangelical-Republican group as no different from the extremist Islamics. Both groups want the same goals, and they'll stop at nothing to arrive at the same goals.

[DoloresIbarruri]

Quote by: MerlinsByte Was the government of Nazi Germany in 1947 evil? Our country was born of revolution from what we perceived as intolerable repression. We considered England's sorta evil. However I think that you are referring to my comment that a government can be what I said was spiritually evil?

I must not be explaining this correctly. English is not my native language, so I often have to elaborate more than once to be understood. Let me give it another shot.

I was only saying that "government" is what happens when a group of people decide that living in a state of chaos is not only not working, but is turning out to be a highly dangerous undertaking. People then gather together, select among themselves people to help organize the rest of the community so that it will work in some semblance of orderliness and chaos will cease. I also mentioned that children simply do not thrive in a state of chaos.

"Government", therefore, is neither good, nor is it evil. It's like a pair of shoes. Is a pair of shoes good or evil? No. Some pairs of shoes are good and will not hurt or damage the feet, and will last. Some pairs of shoes are crap, will give you corns and callouses, and the heels will wear out very quickly. And so with governments. Some are good; some are bad.

Again, I'm very very very confused with the right wing in this country calling "government" a bad thing. It's like someone calling shoes bad. It makes no sense whatsoever, and dismisses the issue, which is that some governments are crap, and some governments are good.

A government by a religious autocracy is crap, as it discriminates against all who have different religions and against all those who are agnostics or atheists, and forces them to live according to the tenets of one religion.

So, all I was saying is that right wings in this country need to stop saying "goverment is bad." That's like saying, "houses are bad." Wrong. SOME houses are crap. SOME houses are good.

I think right wings say, "goverment is bad", so as to cloud the heinous nature of what they are are trying to do, which is create a religious autocracy.

Last of all, I repeat, it's uncanny how it's *ALWAYS* the right wing slurping at the public goverment trough, working in government office, or running for government office, that say, "government is bad." Hypocrisy at its finest. (And bullshit as well).

[DoloresIbarruri]

Quote by: Mia Ummm...the GOP isn't against government. Again, not a group known for railing against government, unless you mean taxes. These people love to legislate against all of our rights through the government. They are heavily into mandating how the rest of us should live. I'm really confused about your viewpoint here.

I know the GOP isn't against govt. It's actually for a big, religious autocracy. Read my posts again.

[Lou Minotti]

Quote by: DoloresIbarruri Guns don't avoid violent crime. They CAUSE violent crime.

You need to do a bit more reading honey. America: "the most dangerous advanced nation of the planet"? Please. And tell me: when did inanimate objects begin making decisions for themselves? You can't say stuff like that and expect people to take you seriously. :rolleyes:

[DoloresIbarruri]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Dolores, while I appreciate your opinions about how "some people" cling to the constitution as something holy, I also have to laugh at how you don't really get the whole point. The government, is exactly as you said, a way for a group of people to form a complex society. Well, the constitution was a collaborative effort of some of the greatest minds of the time on forming complex societies that were for the BENEFIT of the people, instead of the other way around. The Magna Carta, the Articles of Confederation, and the minds of men who sought to have structure, with the least amount of federal control possible, are what led to the creation of the Constitution of the United States. Do I believe it is some "holy" document? Yes!!!! It is a contract, a promise, a set of RULES for the people as much a set of LIMITATIONS on the government.

No. The idea of looking upon a set of rules written in the past as some holy document is not something I think is honorable, wise, or sensible. The Constitution is neither holy, nor is it perfect..

Please don't be offended by what I'm about to say, ok? Thanks. I think the idea of seeing the Constitution as holy fits perfectly with (and runs along the same lines as) American people weeping (which I've seen) when the Star Spangled Banner is played. These same people, on the other hand, live distant from their parents and children, and make no effort to be with them, nor do they cry about that. It's as if their patriotic concept were more important than family. A very bizarre way to look at things. Weeping over third parties, weeping over concepts, but not weeping at having one's family spread all over the place. Further, these same people who weep over the Star Spangled Banner will listen to a member of the family ask them for $500 to get out of a serious bind, and will say calmly and unweepingly say no, then turn the TV set back on to the Star Spangled Banner and weep listening to it again.

I grant you that it's probably a cultural difference between Americans and people of other countries, that Americans uphold some romantic patriotic perfect concept over all other things, where other countries do not do that, and prioritize life differently.

But back to the Constitution itself, there's nothing holy, and nothing perfect about it. It's a writing based on other writings, put together by a group of rich guys who did a pretty good job (I give them a "B"), but were not God, and were not perfect. To try and make it seem otherwise is silly. The real danger in seeing the Constitution as holy, comes when people try to make it seem as something that cannot be changed, when the truth is, that it has been changed and must have the capacity to be changed, to keep up with the times. It's a set of archaic rules, some of which need changing, some not yet, etc.

[Lou Minotti]

But back to the Constitution itself, there's nothing holy, and nothing perfect about it. It's a writing based on other writings, put together by a group of rich guys who did a pretty good job (I give them a "B"), but were not God, and were not perfect. To try and make it seem otherwise is silly. The real danger in seeing the Constitution as holy, comes when people try to make it seem as something that cannot be changed, when the truth is, that it has been changed and must have the capacity to be changed, to keep up with the times. It's a set of archaic rules, some of which need changing, some not yet, etc.

You actually make a good point here. But the founders wrote the document KNOWING it wasn't perfect. But it IS the best system on the planet and arguably, if it were not for it's subvertion, we just might have be living in a country where government insituted POVERTY doesn't lead people to violence. Guns are benign without someone to pull the trigger. And they WILL ALWAYS exist no matter what kind of fantasy world the Marxists wish to create. That is why it is my God-given right to own one. ; )

[Lilith]

The right to bear arms in the advent of a tyrannical government.....hmmm...should I be stockpiling? 'Cause I will, if there is a need.... :eek:

[DoloresIbarruri]

Quote by: Lou Minotti You need to do a bit more reading honey. America: "the most dangerous advanced nation of the planet"? Please. And tell me: when did inanimate objects begin making decisions for themselves? You can't say stuff like that and expect people to take you seriously. :rolleyes:

Gosh, and here I thought my name was Sarah! I guess I underwent a name change and suffered amnesia afterwards, and now my name is "honey."

Armed robbery (per 100,000 people)
United States 221
Canada 94
United Kingdom 63
Sweden 49
Germany 47
Denmark 44
Finland 38
Norway 22
Japan 1

Murders committed with handguns annually:
United States 8,915
Switzerland 53
Sweden 19
Canada 8
United Kingdom 7
The rest are so negligible they cannot be counted.

Murder rate (per 100,000 people):
United States 8.40
Canada 5.45
Denmark 5.17
Germany 4.20
Norway 1.99
United Kingdom 1.97
Sweden 1.73
Japan 1.20
Finland 0.70

Rape (per 100,000 people):
United States 37.20
Sweden 15.70
Denmark 11.23
Germany 8.60 Norway 7.87
United Kingdom 7.26
Finland 7.20
Japan 1.40

These are statistics from a research book titled: WE STAND, by Michael Wolff.

Go roll your eyes a while. Don't forget your bullet proof vest while you're rolling.

Sarah :rolleyes:

[DoloresIbarruri]

Quote by: Lou Minotti You actually make a good point here. But the founders wrote the document KNOWING it wasn't perfect. But it IS the best system on the planet and arguably, if it were not for it's subvertion, we just might have be living in a country where government insituted POVERTY doesn't lead people to violence. Guns are benign without someone to pull the trigger. And they WILL ALWAYS exist no matter what kind of fantasy world the Marxists wish to create. That is why it is my God-given right to own one. ; )

The founders are probably squirming in their graves at the crap that's being said about their Constitution.

However, this is very clearly NOT the best system on the planet unless one is a mega-millionaire, and then it's a dream come true. Would you like me to post per capita, the homelessness in the U.S., the standard of living, vacation days, and many other factors indicating quality of life? If you would, just say so. I've got the data right here. Otherwise I will assume you believe it and are just arguing for the sake of argument.

[Lou Minotti]

However, this is very clearly NOT the best system on the planet unless one is a mega-millionaire, and then it's a dream come true.

Yes, thanks to the subversion of the Constitution.

[DoloresIbarruri]

Quote by: Lou Minotti Yes, thanks to the subversion of the Constitution.

Explain.