The 2nd Amendment - What does it mean?

[tinybear]

OK, this has gone on long enough. Time to dispel some myths, folks. Are you ready? Here we go:

http://www.guninformation.org/

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: tinybear OK, this has gone on long enough. Time to dispel some myths, folks. Are you ready? Here we go: http://www.guninformation.org/

MYTH: If you outlaw guns only the outlaws will have guns. TRUTH: If you outlaw guns, very few criminals will have guns. In America guns start out legal. Then they enter the black market one way or the other. So if you have less legal guns then there will less guns entering the black market and consequently less outlaws owning guns.

And what of guns that don't start in America but are then shipped over here illegally?

Beretta - Italy
Benelli - Italy
FN - Belgium
Glock - Austria
Heckler & Koch - Germany
Steyr - Austria
IMI - Israel

See a pattern here? The companies listed above manufacture not only hand guns, but some of the worlds deadliest and most popular submachineguns, automatic shotguns, and assult/sniping rifles (IE anti personnel weapons).

[a person]

In response to an armed citizenry being futile to stop an oppressive government:

the U.S. militatary is powerful, but it is still stands no chance against evem a slim armed majority in a country of over 250 million. The belief that an internal system of checks and balances is enough is false. All it allows for is for the president legislative and judicial branch to check eachother, these are people that are sometimes part of the same party. A democracy where (as an example) a republican majority in the senate is the only thing to stop a republican president. Though a majority can vote to protect itself, the right to vote has been suspended in a democracy before.

Also in regards to criminals being prevented to have a gun if they are illegal:
drugs are illegal and their is still plenty of access to them by means of illegal imports, and prohibition in the 20's didn't stop alchohol being imported. In these instance we destroyed legit bussinesses and turned them into criminal orginizations that reaked havok on its area. Ex:drug cartels in columbia. Gun control laws would be succesful in taking guns away from law abiding citizens though, because their law abiding.

[Aaron Spicka]

Thanks for the replies, I appreciate them. I now have an good idea what the wording in the second amendment means. I agree that everyone should have the right to bear arms and my intent when questioning that was to firgure it out rather than to say we shouldn't be able to own a gun. I disagree when someone said that a gun is really the only reliable way to self defense. The intruder isn't always going to have great strength so one could just hide behind a door and when they walk in knock them unconsious and I would just guess that most of the time when someone breaks into a home they are looking for valuables and not just harm someone. If a person is lucky enought to hear the person get in which some of the time they will, then a firearm is useful. But if you don't, gun or no gun, your screwed. I also find it hard to believe that by many americans owning firearms it doesn't protect the nation from our govenment. Almost every troop is a citizen that shares many of the same values and ways of thinking that other people have. So if the our DEMOCRACY were go insane out of the blue somehow how would they enforce whatever they see fit? We are the freakin military. In other countries, that are dictatorships, aren't the people who are part of the army there separate from the regular people who make a living out of ordering people to do what one or a group of crazy people say in exchange for some benifts other aren't allowed?

[Chris the Chees]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 And what of guns that don't start in America but are then shipped over here illegally?

Lots of countries have greater gun restriction, without that much of a problem with illegally imported weapons. In my country the problem is with re-activated weapons, according to a TV documentary on it I saw a while ago. That seams logical to me.

[tman_ndsu08]

Lots of countries probably do have greater gun restrictions.

But what do Italy, Belgium, Austria, and Germany have?

[MerlinsByte]

So, with the U.S. possessing among the highest crime rates, the highest murder rates, the highest rates of gun crimes, the highest per capita prison populations and certainly one of the most violent cultures in the civilized world, exactly how is the 2nd Amendment 'defending ourselves'?

Most of the convicts are there because of petty crimes and alcohol or other drug violations. Not gun related crimes. Our justice system is morainic then it is stupid and evil.


England's crime rate went UP after guns were ummm after the government thieved their citizens guns. One of Hitler's first actions were to seize every registered gun in Germany.

Our (In the USA) problems are one of a spoiled society and other issues that are not an issue in the UK and the rest of the world.

If we didn't have guns we would and do use, knifes, shanks, spears, clubs, gas, broken glass,choke holds, cars, toxins, catapults, and oh so much more.

I am devoutly pro gun and once designed silk screen for a tee shirt that reads ....."You call 911....I will call on Glock 9MM"....Oh yes, Mr. Glock, with the addition of a couple of spasmatic barking mutts, is far more reliable here in the sticks, than the POE Lease.

True, some may need to take a safety and means test (no ID or registering allowed) for firearms, and I might agree to that. Shooting ones self by accident ain't purty.

mb

[Sonart]

Quote by: a person the U.S. militatary is powerful, but it is still stands no chance against even a slim armed majority in a country of over 250 million.

All evidence to the contrary. A group of folks tried a serious armed insurrection against the Federal government back in the early 1860s. Perhaps you remember something about it... the Civil War? It proved rather clearly that no legitimate government can allow an armed insurrection to succeed, all of Jefferson's pre and post revolutionary rhetoric notwithstanding.

Your gothic comic vision of armed Americans overthrowing the most powerful military and police on earth is a wet dream.

Quote by: MerlinsByte One of Hitler's first actions were to seize every registered gun in Germany.

Your point being? Successful democracies all over the world have strict gun control without having turned into genocidal tyrannies, including this one.

England's crime rate went UP after guns were ummm after the government thieved their citizens guns.

Try to keep up, Merlin...

--"The truth is that the UK police has changed its system for recording crime since implementing new gun control laws. This change in recording crime made it appear that the crime rate went up. The British Crime Survey, which was unaffected by this change, shows a decrease in crime ."--

If we didn't have guns we would and do use, knifes, shanks, spears, clubs, gas, broken glass, choke holds, cars, toxins, catapults, and oh so much more.

All of which are less lethal and more avoidable than firearms. That's what firearms were invented and designed to do... kill from a distance.

Spears???

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[Lou Minotti]

What does Hitler instituting gun control have to do with the effects of guns in a society?

Everything. What do the effects of guns in a society have to do with the 2nd amendment?

[Lou Minotti]

Your gothic comic vision of armed Americans overthrowing the most powerful military and police on earth is a wet dream.

So is your assurtion that the US is a "successful democracy".

[Lou Minotti]

Quote by: tinybear OK, this has gone on long enough. Time to dispel some myths, folks. Are you ready? Here we go: http://www.guninformation.org/

This dispels nothing.

[tinybear]

Care to elaborate a bit on your last statement, Lou?

[Lou Minotti]

This site is merely shilling for the fascist control-freak, Constution-hating bureaucrats that want to steal people's private property. You posted it as if it had some sort of credibility yet I don't think I've ever seen a more pathetic Anti freedom, Pro Hitler' policies website in my life.

[tinybear]

*Cough* Yes, I see. OK, Lou. Sorry I asked.

[Sonart]

So is your assurtion that the US is a "successful democracy".

Works for me.


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[Lou Minotti]

So is your assurtion that the US is a "successful democracy".

Works for me.

Yeah, for you And that is called fascism.

[Lou Minotti]

Tinybear, from your "source":

In America guns start out legal. Then they enter the black market one way or the other

Uhhh, what? Black markets stem from legitimate ones? The author of this site has got to be kidding?

Private ownership of guns was very common under Saddam Hussein's regime (source).It certainly didn't protect the Iraqi people against political tyranny.

Oh, no???? So I guess the Kurds have been defending themselves with hot falafel oil for the past 30 years. DEBUNKED.

Would you rather have more or less outlaws owning guns? The answer is obvious.

Yeah, the answer is obvious. You can never keep bad people from doing bad things. People can build guns in their basements. There isn't even a debate here. This guy, and anyone that wants to ban guns, COULD NOT BE ANYMORE NAIVE. Tyrants always seek to disarm the people. Fascists support gun control. The end.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: Sonart All evidence to the contrary. A group of folks tried a serious armed insurrection against the Federal government back in the early 1860s. .

The 1860's! LOL!

You made my day!

[Sonart]

Quote by: Lou Minotti Yeah, for you And that is called fascism.

My belief that the United States is a successful democracy is fascism? Interesting. So much for whatever wisp of credibility remained in your musings here.

Quote by: Lou Minotti Uhhh, what? Black markets stem from legitimate ones?

Yes. Universal example: Brand name American cigarettes.

Oh, no???? So I guess the Kurds have been defending themselves with hot falafel oil for the past 30 years.

For the past 10 years they were being protected by the U.S. monitored no-fly zone. Prior to that, they were getting gassed and massacred, shoved into mass graves.

Fascists support gun control. The end.

Really? The good folks of Britain, Canada, Australia, Japan and dozens of our other close allies are all fascists? You can be the one to inform them of that... I don't think our government will.


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[Sonart]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 The 1860's! LOL! You made my day!

Why is that? The civil war represented the seque from the Napoleonic concept of warfare to the modern concept of total, technology driven warfare. And I daresay the capabilities of our military and police have increased exponentially since then. But maybe I'm wrong... certainly - since I made your day - you can provide me with an example of where an armed insurrection against our Federal or State governments has been successful. Just one. Take all the time you need.


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