The 2nd Amendment - What does it mean?

[Lou Minotti]

You stated that you have to be millionaire in America for this to be considered "the best country". What are you looking for in a country? Freedom or comfort?

[DoloresIbarruri]

Quote by: Lou Minotti You stated that you have to be millionaire in America for this to be considered "the best country". What are you looking for in a country? Freedom or comfort?

Fairness and equality of treatment. There can be no freedom without these. When the mega-rich are able to obtain more rights than others by virtue of their wealth, because their country's laws allow that, there is no freedom.

[Lou Minotti]

Fairness and equality of treatment.

By whom? The government? Sure. But that is enshrined in the Bill of Rights. And US laws don't allow peope to oppress others. It's not the law that is the problem its the subversion of it. (btw, there is nothing wrong with private capital. Nothing wrong with "being rich". Using your money to exploit others? That's for a different thread...)

But we are digressing. Gun grabbing commies need to move to China if they hate freedom so much...

[DoloresIbarruri]

Quote by: Lou Minotti By whom? The government? Sure. But that is enshrined in the Bill of Rights. And US laws don't allow peope to oppress others. It's not the law that is the problem its the subversion of it. (btw, there is nothing wrong with private capital. Nothing wrong with "being rich". Using your money to exploit others? That's for a different thread...) But we are digressing. Gun grabbing commies need to move to China if they hate freedom so much...

Your comment (when I said that the Constitution was not perfect, not holy and certainly nothing to write home about), was that I was being subversive to the Constitution. I asked you to explain. You then went off on a tangent by asking me if I preferred freedom or comfort (which had 0 to do with your comment about subversion). I then told you that neither, that I preferred freedom, and equality for people.

Now you posted the above. Perhaps you would care to explain, after all that has been said, how it is subversion on my part to declare the Constitution not holy, not perfect, and certainly needing of work? Ahem.

As for your gun-grabbing Commies statement, I think of everyone who makes comments like that, as looking like a muppet. lol I can't help it. It's what comes to my mind.

[Cephus]

Quote by: Lou Minotti You stated that you have to be millionaire in America for this to be considered "the best country". What are you looking for in a country? Freedom or comfort?

The US does, in fact, cater to the rich. I have to agree with Delores, I prefer equality over freedom or comfort.

Too bad we'll never see any.

[tinybear]

Everywhere caters for the rich. So just try your best to earn more money. Forget about equality. It's unattainable. A famous British judge once remarked in one of his judgments:" The doors to justice are open to everyone; just like the doors to the Ritz."

[DoloresIbarruri]

Quote by: tinybear Everywhere caters for the rich. So just try your best to earn more money. Forget about equality. It's unattainable. A famous British judge once remarked in one of his judgments:" The doors to justice are open to everyone; just like the doors to the Ritz."

No. I disagree with your whole statement. First, for your statement, "just try your best to earn more money", it's an invalid comment. The reality is that if this were possible, there wouldn't be the problems the planet has. It's the central issue of the problems of the planet that people simply cannot "just try your best to earn more money" by making an effort.

Second, there are places which are more just than others. Not all places are like the U.S., you know. Some are a great deal better.

Lastly, that needs to change. It must change. It will change. Maybe not right now, but it will.

The U.S. is younger than most countries, more immature than most countries, and it's taking its population a much longer time to become educated, than most countries. Despite the right wing here trying to prevent a full education, I believe most people will become well educated eventually and it will be the end of the oligarchy.

[Sonart]

Quote by: Lou Minotti America: "the most dangerous advanced nation of the planet"? Please.

It's not? Silly us, forgetting to put "among" at the head of the sentence. The U.S. murders with guns almost as many people per capita as Japan, Singapore, Taiwan, Kuwait, England/Wales, Scotland, the Netherlands, Spain, Ireland, Germany, Italy, Sweden, Denmark, Israel, New Zealand, Australia, Belgium, Canada, Norway, Austria, France, Switzerland and Finland PUT TOGETHER!

With or without guns we murder more people per capita than Armenia, India, Azerbaijan, Dominica, Finland, Slovakia, Romania, Portugal, Malaysia, Yugoslavia (Macedonia), Mauritius, Hungary, South Korea, Slovenia, Iceland, France, Czech, Australia, Canada, Chile, the United Kingdom, Italy, Spain, Germany, New Zealand, Tunisia, Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Ireland, Switzerland, Indonesia, Greece, Hong Kong, Japan and Saudi Arabia.

Quote by: Lou Minotti And tell me: when did inanimate objects begin making decisions for themselves? You can't say stuff like that and expect people to take you seriously.

Guns don't kill people, the bullets do. That's why they make such wonderful weapons. It's why guns exist, why they were designed and invented. Indeed, it's people who have the intent, guns simply make it a WHOLE lot easier.


.

[Milton Bradley]

Perhaps, instead of blaming everything on the guns, you should investigate what motivates these people to kill.


I'm betting that the real reason is the amount of crime, and the amount of oppression in the U.S. By oppression, I mean the amount of non-laws, or unconstitutional laws that violate peoples fundamental rights. Those are the same laws that created the black market that the government claims is responsible for most of these crimes.

[DoloresIbarruri]

Quote by: Milton Bradley Perhaps, instead of blaming everything on the guns, you should investigate what motivates these people to kill. I'm betting that the real reason is the amount of crime, and the amount of oppression in the U.S. By oppression, I mean the amount of non-laws, or unconstitutional laws that violate peoples fundamental rights. Those are the same laws that created the black market that the government claims is responsible for most of these crimes.

That's backasswards. Why this constant protecting of guns, at any expense, at any cost, no matter what, regardless of how much harm it does? You'd think Americans were protecting their own mothers! How simply demented.

How about if you remove the implement being used to murder so rampantly, then sit down calmly and figure out why it was so widespread, then figure out why there's such anger in this country?

I'd feel a hundred times safer knowing that there's not going to be some whacko down the hall from me able to buy a gun at any store. If to buy a gun he has to risk his life in the bad part of town and risk getting arrested, that's fine with me. Make it illegal as pot. Pot kills no one and it's illegal. Guns kill constantly and they're legal. Something's screwed up in this country.

[MerlinsByte]

we murder more people Japan, Singapore, Taiwan, Kuwait, England/Wales, Scotland, the Netherlands, Spain, Ireland, Germany, Italy, Sweden, Denmark, Israel, New Zealand, Australia, Belgium, Canada, Norway, Austria, France, Switzerland and Finland PUT TOGETHER!

So whats the point?

Guns don't kill people, the bullets do. That's why they make such wonderful weapons. It's why guns exist, why they were designed and invented. Indeed, it's people who have the intent, guns simply make it a WHOLE lot easier.

Hmmm', I thought the first guns and weapons were used as self defense and hunting for food not people. War is a terrible great catalyst for technology but demonizing drugs, guns ,prostitution, fast cars, motorcycles, AIN'T engaging a process of the brains higher functions. No,the people who uses the part of the brain that demonizes objects is using the knee JERK center. Not the thinking center. Get er' done... hillbilly merlin...

[Mia]

Quote by: DoloresIbarruri and it's taking its population a much longer time to become educated, than most countries.

Source? Americans are less educated than most other countries?

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: DoloresIbarruri That's backasswards. Why this constant protecting of guns, at any expense, at any cost, no matter what, regardless of how much harm it does? You'd think Americans were protecting their own mothers! How simply demented. How about if you remove the implement being used to murder so rampantly, then sit down calmly and figure out why it was so widespread, then figure out why there's such anger in this country? I'd feel a hundred times safer knowing that there's not going to be some whacko down the hall from me able to buy a gun at any store. If to buy a gun he has to risk his life in the bad part of town and risk getting arrested, that's fine with me. Make it illegal as pot. Pot kills no one and it's illegal. Guns kill constantly and they're legal. Something's screwed up in this country.

The facts, Delores, the facts.


The fact is that the overwhelming majority of guns are not used to commit crimes. So what did these inanimate objects do to get locked up?


Again, we reitterate, the guns are necesarry to keep the tyrants from using force against its own citizens. I refuse to give up my right to opt out of the system if it becomes to corrupt.


We already make attempts to get the guns out of the hands of criminals. Why do you wish to remove the guns from law abiding citizens? There is no logical reason to punish somebody for a crime they did not commit. Even less to punish them for some future crime they would likely never commit. Particularly when both of these concepts go against the philosophies this country was founded on. Individual rights, individual resposibility, and innocent until proven guilty.

[tinybear]

Quote by: Milton Bradley Again, we reitterate, the guns are necesarry to keep the tyrants from using force against its own citizens. I refuse to give up my right to opt out of the system if it becomes to corrupt.

Hey Milton, the time has come to 'opt out'. Ever considered that? So what's the next step? What are you going to do with those guns you own? Please tell me. I'm interested to know how you're going to 'opt out'.

[voyager]

We have come a long way from the 18th century. Any attempt to devine a meaning from the second amendment must be looked at from a 18th century point of view.

More often than not American colonist were better armes than their British counterparts. It was very expensive for a government to arm their troops with state of the are weaponry so they continued using smooth bore muskets while the American were using rifled barrels.

This is a far cry from todays military. How many citizens own a Bradley fighting vehicle or surface to air missles? Get the point?

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: tinybear Hey Milton, the time has come to 'opt out'. Ever considered that? So what's the next step? What are you going to do with those guns you own? Please tell me. I'm interested to know how you're going to 'opt out'.

Obviously I am considering that in this thread Tiny. I am well aware of the lenghts that some people will go too to disarm me, and take away my rights, and even my humanity.


By opt out, I suspect you know what I mean. I mean I will not subject myself to the rules of a tyrant. I will not voluntarily go into a courtroom where my birthright is not honored. I will not let my government subject me to rule by the U.N., or any other foreign power. I will execise my rights under the Constitution of the United States. I will defend my space with as much force as I can muster. I will do whatever is necesarry to remain free, or dead.


Give me liberty, or pass the ammunition.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: voyager We have come a long way from the 18th century. Any attempt to devine a meaning from the second amendment must be looked at from a 18th century point of view. More often than not American colonist were better armes than their British counterparts. It was very expensive for a government to arm their troops with state of the are weaponry so they continued using smooth bore muskets while the American were using rifled barrels. This is a far cry from todays military. How many citizens own a Bradley fighting vehicle or surface to air missles? Get the point?

The word "arms" is used in the Second Ammendment. It does not use the word "gun" in any place in that document. Therefore, I believe that the framers of the constitution believed any "arms" necesarry to keep the government in check were legal for the "militia" to keep, and own.


If you do your homework, you will see that civilians can own mortats, and flame throwers, and cannons, and such. All they need do is obtain a Class III Firearms license.


Why would the Feds issue these licenses in the year 2005 if they did not intend for civilians to own these tools?

[DoloresIbarruri]

Quote by: Milton Bradley The facts, Delores, the facts. The fact is that the overwhelming majority of guns are not used to commit crimes. So what did these inanimate objects do to get locked up? Again, we reitterate, the guns are necesarry to keep the tyrants from using force against its own citizens. I refuse to give up my right to opt out of the system if it becomes to corrupt. We already make attempts to get the guns out of the hands of criminals. Why do you wish to remove the guns from law abiding citizens? There is no logical reason to punish somebody for a crime they did not commit. Even less to punish them for some future crime they would likely never commit. Particularly when both of these concepts go against the philosophies this country was founded on. Individual rights, individual resposibility, and innocent until proven guilty.

"Most guns aren't used to commit crimes", is a silly statement, since a conservative estimate of how many guns are purchased (and the posters of the data are quick to inform that this may be a low number), is approximately >4.9 million per year. If each gun were used to commit 1 crime, that would be 4.9 million people dead, severely injured, injured or what have you. Absurd statement. Are you trying to say that until or unless all guns are used to commit violent crime, no steps should be taken? The fact is, as I've shown, that guns are being used to commit crimes in the U.S. in numbers that are pretty astounding.

Or are you saying that even if all >4.9 million guns were used to kill Americans, that guns take priority over lives and should be continued to be sold freely?

This gun-worship is truly demented. I've never seen anything like it. It takes precedence over people. The mega-million dollar gun manufacturers must be tripping over each other on the way to the bank, and laughing in delight that Americans are dumb enough to put their own lives as inferior to guns.

[tinybear]

The same way that Americans put their own safety and that of others as subsidiary to their 'right' to engage in certain activities however hazardous they maybe. Rights are paramount. Never mind who dies; we have our rights!!! :)

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: DoloresIbarruri This gun-worship is truly demented. I've never seen anything like it. It takes precedence over people. The mega-million dollar gun manufacturers must be tripping over each other on the way to the bank, and laughing in delight that Americans are dumb enough to put their own lives as inferior to guns.

No Delores, what is truly demented is the fact that you are ok with removing the rights of every other American, all 290,000,000 of them, simply because you do not like something.


I really do understand your feelings about this matter, but to think you have the right to disarm the entire populace is insanity. With the passion with which you try to debunk this argument, you might consider moving out of this free country, and into a country with more restrictive laws.


I am tired of being the one asked to leave my home by gun hating, fascist, wanns-be dictators. So I figured I would ask you to leave first. Don''t like it, LEAVE! Cuba is just a short boat ride away for you. Oh wait, you prefer Canada, or Europe, those countries are largely disarmed already, so what are you waiting for? Go be with the like minded folks who have already had their rights stripped away by their benevolent, all knowing leaders.