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Venmax · Feb 3, 2004, 11:00 am

This is where it will be won or lost folks...

http://www.economist.com/agenda/displaySto...tory_id=2402750

Suburbanite · Feb 3, 2004, 08:30 pm

Wow, good article. Thanks.

Venmax · Feb 3, 2004, 10:56 pm

See! Ranters are people too!

castille · Feb 4, 2004, 06:56 am

How ironic....the revolutionaries become the conservatives.

"After the war, what will become of the revolutionaries? Will they continue the iron grip of the dictator, and become the new dictators?"

It goes to show that humans are never happy. NO matter what society we live in, whether democratic or communist or fascist, we'll always have people complaining.

eburchelli · Feb 4, 2004, 10:41 am

Perhaps they are not ready for democracy. Democracies demand an educated people. This is the reason they have failed in places like South America and Africa. I don't know the extent of education in Iran. Just because the young people are said to be college students, I don't know the totality of education in that country.

Impenitent · Feb 4, 2004, 11:16 am

education?!? how fucking racist!!! you mean democracies demand white european education ... look at south america and africa... the vast majority of adults in iraq have college degrees...

locke thought "rationality" was key as well...

look at the far east and compare "education" and rationality

Venmax · Feb 4, 2004, 11:38 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (eburchelli,)
Perhaps they are not ready for democracy. Democracies demand an educated people. This is the reason they have failed in places like South America and Africa. I don't know the extent of education in Iran. Just because the young people are said to be college students, I don't know the totality of education in that country.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Of all the claptrap that the radical left spews out this line has to be the most disgusting. How in the FARKING hell can you stand there and decry people like Clinton and Bush for reforming Welfare and getting rid of Affirmative Action - and in the VERY SAME BREATH spout shit like this?!!

Seriously what the hell is wrong with you people?!?!?! M A K E U P Y O U R F R E E K I N G M I N D !!!!!!!!! Either you are FOR Human Rights or you are NOT. What the hell makes the common man in the western world so much better than in Africa, Asia, or the Middle East?! I'm absolutely stunned!!! God it's so Condescending. If 2 years from now if they aren't holding elections in Iraq are you going to stand by this line of reasoning???? HELL NO!!! You'd be climbing the walls, shrieking at the very top of your lungs that George Bush was the most Evil form of life to ever Spawn on the face of the planet, and that he never had any intention of giving the Iraqi people freedom.

Seriously WTF?!?!?!

Venmax · Feb 4, 2004, 11:40 am

Jeesus H. CHRIST - according to that line of reasoning there would have NEVER been any reason to free the Slaves in this country and give them the right to vote. Good God that is rediculous!!

I suppose every developing culture in the world just needs to submit to the benevolent and watchful care of the United Nations until they are "Ready" for democracy because the U.N. know whats best for them.

Good F*cking GOD! This is where the conservatives are DEAD ON about the Racism of LOW EXPECTATIONS. You liberals wear your hearts on your sleeves about the "Plight" of non-Anglo peoples, but when it comes down to it you really don't think they can cut it - HYPOCRITES!!

eburchelli · Feb 4, 2004, 12:22 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
education?!? how fucking racist!!! you mean democracies demand white european education ... look at south america and africa... the vast majority of adults in iraq have college degrees...

locke thought "rationality" was key as well...

look at the far east and compare "education" and rationality<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Where does democracy flourish? Where has it been successful in the past? Ok, Greece fell. And so will the USA. No country remains top dog forever. But successful democracies demand a citizenry with an education that allows them to choose their own destinies.

I did look at South America and Africa. SA is mainly communist and Africa is a mess. Africa is ripe for communism, if they can ever get out from under their tribal ambitions. Democracy will come later, if ever, to most of Africa.

Iraqis are highly educated, albeit the past 30 years it's been a saturation of Saddam indoctrination. But I see those people as ready for democracy. It will depend upon how much influence the mullahs and clerics have retained.

By the way, what is wrong with white, european education? It's the reason you are sitting at your computer doing message boards.

eburchelli · Feb 4, 2004, 12:37 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Venmax,)

Of all the claptrap that the radical left spews out this line has to be the most disgusting. How in the FARKING hell can you stand there and decry people like Clinton and Bush for reforming Welfare and getting rid of Affirmative Action - and in the VERY SAME BREATH spout shit like this?!!<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Which radical left am I? I was for reforming welfare and I'm against Affirmative Action. I believe that a good education defines the abilities
of people to determine their lives.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Venmax,)
Either you are FOR Human Rights or you are NOT. What the hell makes the common man in the western world so much better than in Africa, Asia, or the Middle East?! I'm absolutely stunned!!! God it's so Condescending. If 2 years from now if they aren't holding elections in Iraq are you going to stand by this line of reasoning???? HELL NO!!! You be climbing the walls, shrieking at the very top of your lungs that George Bush was the most Evil form of life to ever Spawn on the face of the planet, and that he never had any intention of giving the Iraqi people freedom.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I am for basic human rights. Not what the UN has decreed are human rights. Most of those are civil rights and that process has been abused time and time again.

Education is what makes people more able to assess and determine their goals. It is not a question of one group being better than another. Just that the educated group is better prepared.

For the people of Iraq, I hope they are holding elections and have a proud new government as soon as possible. But if they do not, I don't think I am responsible. I would never call George Bush evil. Unlike George Bush, the word evil is not part of my vocabulary. I do believe he is sincere in wanting to help the Iraqi people. Things apparently didn't go as planned. I don't blame him. France could have made things a lot easier for us and for the Iraqis.

Venmax · Feb 4, 2004, 01:03 pm

Horseshit!! Horseshit!! And more Horseshit!!!

The very idea that people need to be educated in order to "Handle Democracy" automatically assumes that a "Benevolent" dictatorship is preferable.

HORSESHIT

Dictatorship is NEVER preferable. Thanks to f*cking GOD there were more people like me in this country in 1776 than there were people like you. This world would still be groveling under the lash of tyranny.

You are FOR freedom or you are NOT. You sir are the latter. Go take a short walk off a tall bridge.

Impenitent · Feb 4, 2004, 03:52 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (eburchelli,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
education?!? how fucking racist!!! you mean democracies demand white european education ... look at south america and africa... the vast majority of adults in iraq have college degrees...

locke thought "rationality" was key as well...

look at the far east and compare "education" and rationality<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Where does democracy flourish? Where has it been successful in the past? Ok, Greece fell. And so will the USA. No country remains top dog forever. But successful democracies demand a citizenry with an education that allows them to choose their own destinies.

I did look at South America and Africa. SA is mainly communist and Africa is a mess. Africa is ripe for communism, if they can ever get out from under their tribal ambitions. Democracy will come later, if ever, to most of Africa.

Iraqis are highly educated, albeit the past 30 years it's been a saturation of Saddam indoctrination. But I see those people as ready for democracy. It will depend upon how much influence the mullahs and clerics have retained.

By the way, what is wrong with white, european education? It's the reason you are sitting at your computer doing message boards.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

LMAO... ask an asian what is wrong with white european education...

everyone is ripe for conquest...

education does not make for good democracy... hitler was democratically elected by an educated german majority...

the reason I am sitting at my computer is because I can... the sad thing is you don't see the racism behind your white european education... educated to be a good racist and you can't even see it... how educated is that?

Venmax · Feb 4, 2004, 05:04 pm

Well so far so good - I haven't been banned from the forums yet. Sorry that last rant was particularly bad....

...but how can you not see how way off you are on this? Benevolent Dictatorship is still Dictatorship. The MOST fundamental human right is to have a say in how one is governed. Without that there is NOTHING else.

Venmax · Feb 4, 2004, 06:15 pm

And furthermore - here's another area where the Radical Left run into a problem with their logic.

How the hell do you determine "WHEN is someone considered educated? And WHO is doing the educating"? Especially when you push garbage like Cultural Relativism at the same time - which specifically states that no one culture is better or worse than the other in regards to their social values. Who the hell is supposed to teach??? Who the hell is supposed to learn???

According to that logic being "Educated" is an IMPOSSIBILITY, and therefore NOBODY is every "Ready" for Democracy.

Freedom is Freedom. It's not a condition, it's not a privilige... it's Humanity's RIGHT.

Nuff' Said.

eburchelli · Feb 4, 2004, 09:34 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Venmax,)
Horseshit!! Horseshit!! And more Horseshit!!!

The very idea that people need to be educated in order to "Handle Democracy" automatically assumes that a "Benevolent" dictatorship is preferable.

HORSESHIT

Dictatorship is NEVER preferable. Thanks to f*cking GOD there were more people like me in this country in 1776 than there were people like you. This world would still be groveling under the lash of tyranny.

You are FOR freedom or you are NOT. You sir are the latter. Go take a short walk off a tall bridge.<hr size="1" /></blockquote> I have four ancestors who fought in the Revolutionary War. One was killed and one was wounded. The other two survived intact.

I am for freedom but freedom is not something that just happens. People have to want it badly enough to fight for it, otherwise it doesn't mean as much to them when someone tries to hand it to them.

This is why an educated people are better able to attain and retain a democracy. You are carrying on like illiteracy should be the standard. What's wrong with an educated population?

And if you can't reply without telling me to jump off a bridge or some other invective, I'd as soon you didn't reply to my posts at all, thank you.

Venmax · Feb 4, 2004, 11:42 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
I have four ancestors who fought in the Revolutionary War. One was killed and one was wounded. The other two survived intact.
<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Lol!! WTF happened to the gene pool along the way?! Seriously man... You could dress up like a British Officer circa the late 18th century spouting some of the shit you write here and it would TOTALLY FIT.

Roflmao!!

Venmax · Feb 4, 2004, 11:58 pm

Seriously - I get the impression that you are commited to Democracy and Freedom. And don't get the impression that I think it's our duty to go "Liberating" everyone around the globe - it's not.

But Freedom and Democracy aren't "Just another form of government". True - you might see it as such given that some people, and some cultures, fail to thrive in it. But that is the essential nature of Freedom - that people may rise or fall by their own abilities and choices. It recognizes the importance of the individual and relys on faith in the individual. It is the fundamental right of every person on this planet - regardless of race, color, creed, education, class, or IQ.

...and I daresay your fore fathers would have agreed with me.

eburchelli · Feb 5, 2004, 05:46 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Venmax,)
But Freedom and Democracy aren't "Just another form of government". True - you might see it as such given that some people, and some cultures, fail to thrive in it. But that is the essential nature of Freedom - that people may rise or fall by their own abilities and choices. It recognizes the importance of the individual and relys on faith in the individual. It is the fundamental right of every person on this planet - regardless of race, color, creed, education, class, or IQ.

...and I daresay your fore fathers would have agreed with me. <hr size="1" /></blockquote> You're damn right, Democracy is not just another form of government. However, a pure democracy, where the majority rules, is not the best form of a Democracy. The USA has the ideal form in a representative Republic, in which all citizens are protected under our Constitution. At least, that is the ideal behind it.

Letting out blacks and to some extent women, was a fault that can be attributed to the times. As enlightened as our forefathers were, they still had an elitist perception of the world. But future Amendments took care of that problem. Now, if we could just get the judges to stop re-writing it to suit their partisan views.

Feb 4, 2004, 06:56 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	How ironic....the revolutionaries become the conservatives. "After the war, what will become of the revolutionaries? Will they continue the iron grip of the dictator, and become the new dictators?" It goes to show that humans are never happy. NO matter what society we live in, whether democratic or communist or fascist, we'll always have people complaining. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Feb 4, 2004, 11:16 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	education?!? how fucking racist!!! you mean democracies demand white european education ... look at south america and africa... the vast majority of adults in iraq have college degrees... locke thought "rationality" was key as well... look at the far east and compare "education" and rationality "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Feb 4, 2004, 11:38 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
Venmax Molten Ash Posts: 28	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (eburchelli,) Perhaps they are not ready for democracy. Democracies demand an educated people. This is the reason they have failed in places like South America and Africa. I don't know the extent of education in Iran. Just because the young people are said to be college students, I don't know the totality of education in that country.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Of all the claptrap that the radical left spews out this line has to be the most disgusting. How in the FARKING hell can you stand there and decry people like Clinton and Bush for reforming Welfare and getting rid of Affirmative Action - and in the VERY SAME BREATH spout shit like this?!! Seriously what the hell is wrong with you people?!?!?! M A K E U P Y O U R F R E E K I N G M I N D !!!!!!!!! Either you are FOR Human Rights or you are NOT. What the hell makes the common man in the western world so much better than in Africa, Asia, or the Middle East?! I'm absolutely stunned!!! God it's so Condescending. If 2 years from now if they aren't holding elections in Iraq are you going to stand by this line of reasoning???? HELL NO!!! You'd be climbing the walls, shrieking at the very top of your lungs that George Bush was the most Evil form of life to ever Spawn on the face of the planet, and that he never had any intention of giving the Iraqi people freedom. Seriously WTF?!?!?!

Feb 4, 2004, 12:22 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
eburchelli Molten Ash Posts: 106	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) education?!? how fucking racist!!! you mean democracies demand white european education ... look at south america and africa... the vast majority of adults in iraq have college degrees... locke thought "rationality" was key as well... look at the far east and compare "education" and rationality<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Where does democracy flourish? Where has it been successful in the past? Ok, Greece fell. And so will the USA. No country remains top dog forever. But successful democracies demand a citizenry with an education that allows them to choose their own destinies. I did look at South America and Africa. SA is mainly communist and Africa is a mess. Africa is ripe for communism, if they can ever get out from under their tribal ambitions. Democracy will come later, if ever, to most of Africa. Iraqis are highly educated, albeit the past 30 years it's been a saturation of Saddam indoctrination. But I see those people as ready for democracy. It will depend upon how much influence the mullahs and clerics have retained. By the way, what is wrong with white, european education? It's the reason you are sitting at your computer doing message boards.

Feb 4, 2004, 12:37 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
eburchelli Molten Ash Posts: 106	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Venmax,) Of all the claptrap that the radical left spews out this line has to be the most disgusting. How in the FARKING hell can you stand there and decry people like Clinton and Bush for reforming Welfare and getting rid of Affirmative Action - and in the VERY SAME BREATH spout shit like this?!!<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Which radical left am I? I was for reforming welfare and I'm against Affirmative Action. I believe that a good education defines the abilities of people to determine their lives. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Venmax,) Either you are FOR Human Rights or you are NOT. What the hell makes the common man in the western world so much better than in Africa, Asia, or the Middle East?! I'm absolutely stunned!!! God it's so Condescending. If 2 years from now if they aren't holding elections in Iraq are you going to stand by this line of reasoning???? HELL NO!!! You be climbing the walls, shrieking at the very top of your lungs that George Bush was the most Evil form of life to ever Spawn on the face of the planet, and that he never had any intention of giving the Iraqi people freedom.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I am for basic human rights. Not what the UN has decreed are human rights. Most of those are civil rights and that process has been abused time and time again. Education is what makes people more able to assess and determine their goals. It is not a question of one group being better than another. Just that the educated group is better prepared. For the people of Iraq, I hope they are holding elections and have a proud new government as soon as possible. But if they do not, I don't think I am responsible. I would never call George Bush evil. Unlike George Bush, the word evil is not part of my vocabulary. I do believe he is sincere in wanting to help the Iraqi people. Things apparently didn't go as planned. I don't blame him. France could have made things a lot easier for us and for the Iraqis.

Feb 3, 2004, 11:00 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
Venmax Molten Ash Posts: 28	This is where it will be won or lost folks... http://www.economist.com/agenda/displaySto...tory_id=2402750

Feb 3, 2004, 08:30 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
Suburbanite BANNED Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,203	Wow, good article. Thanks.

Feb 3, 2004, 10:56 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
Venmax Molten Ash Posts: 28	See! Ranters are people too!

Feb 4, 2004, 10:41 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
eburchelli Molten Ash Posts: 106	Perhaps they are not ready for democracy. Democracies demand an educated people. This is the reason they have failed in places like South America and Africa. I don't know the extent of education in Iran. Just because the young people are said to be college students, I don't know the totality of education in that country.

Feb 4, 2004, 11:40 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
Venmax Molten Ash Posts: 28	Jeesus H. CHRIST - according to that line of reasoning there would have NEVER been any reason to free the Slaves in this country and give them the right to vote. Good God that is rediculous!! I suppose every developing culture in the world just needs to submit to the benevolent and watchful care of the United Nations until they are "Ready" for democracy because the U.N. know whats best for them. Good F*cking GOD! This is where the conservatives are DEAD ON about the Racism of LOW EXPECTATIONS. You liberals wear your hearts on your sleeves about the "Plight" of non-Anglo peoples, but when it comes down to it you really don't think they can cut it - HYPOCRITES!!

Feb 4, 2004, 01:03 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
Venmax Molten Ash Posts: 28	Horseshit!! Horseshit!! And more Horseshit!!! The very idea that people need to be educated in order to "Handle Democracy" automatically assumes that a "Benevolent" dictatorship is preferable. HORSESHIT Dictatorship is NEVER preferable. Thanks to f*cking GOD there were more people like me in this country in 1776 than there were people like you. This world would still be groveling under the lash of tyranny. You are FOR freedom or you are NOT. You sir are the latter. Go take a short walk off a tall bridge.

Feb 4, 2004, 03:52 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (eburchelli,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) education?!? how fucking racist!!! you mean democracies demand white european education ... look at south america and africa... the vast majority of adults in iraq have college degrees... locke thought "rationality" was key as well... look at the far east and compare "education" and rationality<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Where does democracy flourish? Where has it been successful in the past? Ok, Greece fell. And so will the USA. No country remains top dog forever. But successful democracies demand a citizenry with an education that allows them to choose their own destinies. I did look at South America and Africa. SA is mainly communist and Africa is a mess. Africa is ripe for communism, if they can ever get out from under their tribal ambitions. Democracy will come later, if ever, to most of Africa. Iraqis are highly educated, albeit the past 30 years it's been a saturation of Saddam indoctrination. But I see those people as ready for democracy. It will depend upon how much influence the mullahs and clerics have retained. By the way, what is wrong with white, european education? It's the reason you are sitting at your computer doing message boards.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> LMAO... ask an asian what is wrong with white european education... everyone is ripe for conquest... education does not make for good democracy... hitler was democratically elected by an educated german majority... the reason I am sitting at my computer is because I can... the sad thing is you don't see the racism behind your white european education... educated to be a good racist and you can't even see it... how educated is that? "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Feb 4, 2004, 05:04 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
Venmax Molten Ash Posts: 28	Well so far so good - I haven't been banned from the forums yet. Sorry that last rant was particularly bad.... ...but how can you not see how way off you are on this? Benevolent Dictatorship is still Dictatorship. The MOST fundamental human right is to have a say in how one is governed. Without that there is NOTHING else.

Feb 4, 2004, 06:15 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
Venmax Molten Ash Posts: 28	And furthermore - here's another area where the Radical Left run into a problem with their logic. How the hell do you determine "WHEN is someone considered educated? And WHO is doing the educating"? Especially when you push garbage like Cultural Relativism at the same time - which specifically states that no one culture is better or worse than the other in regards to their social values. Who the hell is supposed to teach??? Who the hell is supposed to learn??? According to that logic being "Educated" is an IMPOSSIBILITY, and therefore NOBODY is every "Ready" for Democracy. Freedom is Freedom. It's not a condition, it's not a privilige... it's Humanity's RIGHT. Nuff' Said.

Feb 4, 2004, 09:34 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
eburchelli Molten Ash Posts: 106	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Venmax,) Horseshit!! Horseshit!! And more Horseshit!!! The very idea that people need to be educated in order to "Handle Democracy" automatically assumes that a "Benevolent" dictatorship is preferable. HORSESHIT Dictatorship is NEVER preferable. Thanks to f*cking GOD there were more people like me in this country in 1776 than there were people like you. This world would still be groveling under the lash of tyranny. You are FOR freedom or you are NOT. You sir are the latter. Go take a short walk off a tall bridge.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I have four ancestors who fought in the Revolutionary War. One was killed and one was wounded. The other two survived intact. I am for freedom but freedom is not something that just happens. People have to want it badly enough to fight for it, otherwise it doesn't mean as much to them when someone tries to hand it to them. This is why an educated people are better able to attain and retain a democracy. You are carrying on like illiteracy should be the standard. What's wrong with an educated population? And if you can't reply without telling me to jump off a bridge or some other invective, I'd as soon you didn't reply to my posts at all, thank you.

Feb 4, 2004, 11:42 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
Venmax Molten Ash Posts: 28	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by I have four ancestors who fought in the Revolutionary War. One was killed and one was wounded. The other two survived intact. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Lol!! WTF happened to the gene pool along the way?! Seriously man... You could dress up like a British Officer circa the late 18th century spouting some of the shit you write here and it would TOTALLY FIT. Roflmao!!

Feb 4, 2004, 11:58 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
Venmax Molten Ash Posts: 28	Seriously - I get the impression that you are commited to Democracy and Freedom. And don't get the impression that I think it's our duty to go "Liberating" everyone around the globe - it's not. But Freedom and Democracy aren't "Just another form of government". True - you might see it as such given that some people, and some cultures, fail to thrive in it. But that is the essential nature of Freedom - that people may rise or fall by their own abilities and choices. It recognizes the importance of the individual and relys on faith in the individual. It is the fundamental right of every person on this planet - regardless of race, color, creed, education, class, or IQ. ...and I daresay your fore fathers would have agreed with me.

Feb 5, 2004, 05:46 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
eburchelli Molten Ash Posts: 106	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Venmax,) But Freedom and Democracy aren't "Just another form of government". True - you might see it as such given that some people, and some cultures, fail to thrive in it. But that is the essential nature of Freedom - that people may rise or fall by their own abilities and choices. It recognizes the importance of the individual and relys on faith in the individual. It is the fundamental right of every person on this planet - regardless of race, color, creed, education, class, or IQ. ...and I daresay your fore fathers would have agreed with me. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> You're damn right, Democracy is not just another form of government. However, a pure democracy, where the majority rules, is not the best form of a Democracy. The USA has the ideal form in a representative Republic, in which all citizens are protected under our Constitution. At least, that is the ideal behind it. Letting out blacks and to some extent women, was a fault that can be attributed to the times. As enlightened as our forefathers were, they still had an elitist perception of the world. But future Amendments took care of that problem. Now, if we could just get the judges to stop re-writing it to suit their partisan views.