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Thread: America weak spot

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    America weak spot

    Thought occurred to me, if North Korea really wanted to hurt America...nukes/EMP burst would be a great way to do it...if you knew you could. However the odds of it working are rather slim for North Korea. However....they could nuke China, and being such a close target, a major exporter to America.....well I am sure you can think of a lot a ways it could hurt us. In short, a few nukes exploded high enough up, could black out a big part of China...especially the costal areas. Thoughts? Fears? Arguments?

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    We should view this North Korean flare up, as a sign of what life is going to be like, if we let the weak and fearful dictate our foreign policy - in a future, where the world takes orders from mad men and tyrants. But yet, I'm sure, there is many people on this forum, who view it as "mean" or "unfair" to stop countries like Iran, and other despotic regimes, from getting nuclear weapons, the same people who thought it was "mean" to stop North Korea from getting nukes.
    If anything at all, we should learn to stop being nice and fair, to people who want to destroy us.

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    Caconym The Philosopher's Avatar
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    Turning this around:

    Imagine we live in North Korea/Iran etc. We are looking at America. They have loads of nukes and guns pointing right at us. They are not friendly. They have troops deployed or ready to deploy. We're scared shitless. We have some natural resources which the Americans would love to get their hands on. We've seen it happen before to so many other similar countries like us. We don't want to be the next Iraq. Only seems sensible to stockpile nuclear weapons as deterrents. God, perhaps even a preemptive strike would make sense.

    The reason I have posted this is not because I believe it, but rather to show the problems with the logic of nuclear stockpiling and strikes against supposedly threatening countries i.e. that the logic can be used by both sides. Perhaps both sides should try to decrease the mutual hatred rather than increase it.

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    Confused Saxophonist HandyCompGuy's Avatar
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    The North Koreans rattle their sabers for two basic reasons.

    First, the North Koreans want to exert control over their own people by maintaining a siege posture. If folks believe their nation is under siege, they will permit the government to do just about whatever it wants.

    Second, the North Koreans want to get paid. Historically, nations have paid off the North Koreans through aid almost every time they get restless. I figure a billion or two in aid will shortly be given to North Korea by China. Either the US or a surrogate nation will likely pitch in a few million in "humanitarian" aid too.

    After that, the North Koreans will quiet down again for a while until they need another cash infusion.
    Good Luck,

    Your Handy Computer Guy

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    Quote Quote by: HandyCompGuy View Post
    The North Koreans rattle their sabers for two basic reasons.

    First, the North Koreans want to exert control over their own people by maintaining a siege posture. If folks believe their nation is under siege, they will permit the government to do just about whatever it wants.

    Second, the North Koreans want to get paid. Historically, nations have paid off the North Koreans through aid almost every time they get restless. I figure a billion or two in aid will shortly be given to North Korea by China. Either the US or a surrogate nation will likely pitch in a few million in "humanitarian" aid too.

    After that, the North Koreans will quiet down again for a while until they need another cash infusion.
    Boiled down to even more general terms: When one rattles one's saber, one usually has one or both of the following goals: Deter conflict with someone and/or determine who your allies are (who else will respond with you by rattling sabers?). As mentioned in the other North Korea thread here, North Korea hopes China will respond imo. This is the most general explanation of their latest shenanigans.

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    Quote Quote by: The Philosopher View Post
    Turning this around:

    Imagine we live in North Korea/Iran etc. We are looking at America. They have loads of nukes and guns pointing right at us. They are not friendly. They have troops deployed or ready to deploy. We're scared shitless. We have some natural resources which the Americans would love to get their hands on. We've seen it happen before to so many other similar countries like us. We don't want to be the next Iraq. Only seems sensible to stockpile nuclear weapons as deterrents. God, perhaps even a preemptive strike would make sense.

    The reason I have posted this is not because I believe it, but rather to show the problems with the logic of nuclear stockpiling and strikes against supposedly threatening countries i.e. that the logic can be used by both sides. Perhaps both sides should try to decrease the mutual hatred rather than increase it.
    Very often, the line between understanding and excusing gets blurred, it sounds like your close to blurring that line yourself.
    The most dangerous move in the leftist handbook is that of equalizing - countries like North Korea are not our equals, "both sides" don't have to decrease "mutual hatred", anymore then a criminal and a victim have to decrease "mutual hatred".
    People have to understand that we have enemies, and people have to understand that countries like North Korea should be hated and feared until we can defeat or subjugate them.

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    Caconym The Philosopher's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Consilience View Post
    a criminal and a victim
    What's the crime?
    Quote Quote by: Consilience View Post
    countries like North Korea should be hated and feared until we can defeat or subjugate them.
    Why? They haven't attacked the US. I would understand you if you said the leaders of North Korea are stupid and evil, and that the US should be concerned and aware of them. But the citizens of the country are certainly equal to the citizens of the US.

    The OP seemed to be scared of Korea. I posited that Korea has reason to be far more scared of America. North Korea's crimes are crimes by its leaders, and they are mostly internal. The fight for good democratic leadership and the end of dictatorship is a good fight but a metaphorical one best fought in rooms and conferences rather than battlefields. War breeds hate and resentment, not understanding, cooperation and conversion.

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    Quote Quote by: Whatssnew View Post
    Thought occurred to me, if North Korea really wanted to hurt America...nukes/EMP burst would be a great way to do it...if you knew you could. However the odds of it working are rather slim for North Korea. However....they could nuke China, and being such a close target, a major exporter to America.....well I am sure you can think of a lot a ways it could hurt us. In short, a few nukes exploded high enough up, could black out a big part of China...especially the costal areas. Thoughts? Fears? Arguments?
    The amount of things NK could do against the US is frankly endless. We are a huge target to attack and very hard to miss, but the things we could do back is limited.

    In the event of a war the biggest advantage of the US is their technology and armaments. Indeed it would be impossible for us to nuke NK without massive collateral damage inflicted on SK or China, an EMP would not be effective either because their military is not as reliant on technology. The secondary option of shelling and bombing NK is almost completely unreasonable as well. NK is known to have vast underground networks that most of the military exists and functions in. Shelling would merely devastate the civilian populace above ground or deployed troops while leaving the rest of the NK military not only intact but extremely determined after watching innocent civilians being bombed. An occupation of NK would be 10x worse than that of Iraq. While some of the people of Iraq might be considered radicals, most of NK can be said to be exactly that. They're will to fight would be a hard one to break, and they would have a great deal of advantage on their own territory.

    I don't believe a war fought with NK would end this decade and would be very much like the Iraq occupation only much bloodier.

    BTW this thread has derailed. The question was about the nuclear options and military actions that would be effective against NK. We should start a thread about the North Korean situation.
    Enjoy the nonsense!

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    An Analyst& A Gadfly Yarn's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Whatssnew View Post
    Thought occurred to me, if North Korea really wanted to hurt America...nukes/EMP burst would be a great way to do it...if you knew you could. However the odds of it working are rather slim for North Korea. However....they could nuke China, and being such a close target, a major exporter to America.....well I am sure you can think of a lot a ways it could hurt us. In short, a few nukes exploded high enough up, could black out a big part of China...especially the costal areas. Thoughts? Fears? Arguments?
    North Korea is at snail pace acquiring the ability to be a better and better kamikaze in the event it ever chooses to be one. Per these concerns, anti-missile defence may be able to counter a lot of their advances. Such technology has been played with for a long time, however recent "field testing" in Israel suggests it may finally be maturing, at least when it comes to short range strikes.

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    Quote Quote by: HandyCompGuy View Post
    The North Koreans rattle their sabers for two basic reasons.

    First, the North Koreans want to exert control over their own people by maintaining a siege posture. If folks believe their nation is under siege, they will permit the government to do just about whatever it wants.

    Second, the North Koreans want to get paid. Historically, nations have paid off the North Koreans through aid almost every time they get restless. I figure a billion or two in aid will shortly be given to North Korea by China. Either the US or a surrogate nation will likely pitch in a few million in "humanitarian" aid too.

    After that, the North Koreans will quiet down again for a while until they need another cash infusion.
    US citizens should have no problem understanding what you said. The Cold War unleashed the Military Industrial Complex and has put the citizens in big debt, while also escalating the danger of war around the world. And at the end of the cold war, oops, the USSR was not the big threat we thought it was, and Palestinians have a chance of snow ball in hell, in having any land to call Palestine, because Israel was a vital strategic foot hold, was allowed to become a nuclear nation, and is very heavily armed thanks to US generosity and now shall we talk about water and Israel's control of it? There are live and death struggles going on and US has turned itself into a Military Industrial Complex, and put itself in the middle of conflicts that are regretable. The US is not the democracy it was before WWII. The US was not a military threat to the world, because it demobilized after every war, until Eisenhower and the Korean war. However, it is not just the military build of the US military might that now makes it a perceived threat, but the decisions of the Neo Con's Bush and Cheney, as they used 9/11 to fulfill their New Century American Project plans to have military domination of the mid east.

    But I want to bring this back to what you said about how a population can be manipulated, because Koreans are not the only ones subject to this manipulation. I put my hope in the internet and the ability of common people around the world, to talk with each other, and hopefully break free of the government controls that bring people to war.

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    Ncp Rights Activist ironeagle's Avatar
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    It would be a God send to the US so that we could build manufacturing jobs here again and have jobs instead of lead filled Chinese made toys.
    Saving the empovershed by empoverishing their counterparts will empoverish the whole.

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    Novice Member DrumlineAnthony's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: ironeagle View Post
    It would be a God send to the US so that we could build manufacturing jobs here again and have jobs instead of lead filled Chinese made toys.
    I can understand where you're coming from with a quote like this but it seems to me as if you believe a war should start-costing hundreds of lives civilian and military nonetheless-so that America can have a slightly lower unemployment rate so as we can have "safer toys"

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