"Evidence of WMD"

[Lou Minotti]

Wow, it has become EVEN MORE EVIDENT you know nearly nothing of which you speak yet you expect to be taken seriously.

Yes, the embargo killed people. Lots of people. But painting Iraq like it was some third world cess pool is laughable. But at least you are admitting our sanctions (which many American firms PROFITED FROM) killed millions. Most necons don't know and/or don't care. Good for you!!!!!!

[bishop]

Too bad PBS could not go to the source for information.

huh? it was an interview with blix!!! being that he was the head of unmovic, i'd view his statements as being credible.. looks like you like to play games mr. american..

speaking some more about reports and what blix has said... just a single snippet for you to ignore if you so desire.

http://www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/new/...iefings.asp#10

While we are all aware of the large amounts of proscribed items, which still remain unaccounted for, we should perhaps take note of the fact that for many years neither UNSCOM nor UNMOVIC made significant finds of weapons. The lack of finds could be because the items were unilaterally destroyed by the Iraqi authorities or else because they were effectively concealed by them. I trust that in the new environment in Iraq, in which there is full access and cooperation, and in which knowledgeable witnesses should no longer be inhibited to reveal what they know, it should be possible to establish the truth we all want to know.

and what has happened since then? we haven't found anything, that's what's happened. we even stated that publicly.. of course, they had to toss in a couple nuances in order to keep the water muddy, and keep bush almighty's ass off of the coals. you can put up pictures of planes hidden in the sand till the cows come home, but it won't help your apologist stance at all.

[The American]

Quote by: Lou Minotti Wow, it has become EVEN MORE EVIDENT you know nearly nothing of which you speak yet you expect to be taken seriously. Yes, the embargo killed people. Lots of people. But painting Iraq like it was some third world cess pool is laughable. But at least you are admitting our sanctions (which many American firms PROFITED FROM) killed millions. Most necons don't know and/or don't care. Good for you!!!!!!

You think I am a neocon? Think again. I specialize in thought prevoking. I am on a quest for answers as well. I do not have all of them. I wish I did, wouldn't that be great? Some of you thought it was boastful, in my stating, "I am not your ordinary debator". You are now seeing examples of what I am. It is hard to picture someone out of a few posts. You should realize by now, I have some ring of truth to me. I have been wrong here at this site, and have admitted it. It is not above me to do that. I am merely, a "truth-seeker".

[The American]

[quote]

Quote by: bishop .. looks like you like to play games mr. american..

Yes I do, Texas holdem' and Spanish 21 is my favorites.

speaking some more about reports and what blix has said... just a single snippet for you to ignore if you so desire.

I do not ignore it. it brings us back to the core of my original post. Where did this stuff go?

http://www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/new/...iefings.asp#10 While we are all aware of the large amounts of proscribed items, which still remain unaccounted for...................

and what has happened since then? we haven't found anything, that's what's happened.

Read what we ahve found, we have found a lot of things Hussein denied having, he was in violation of U.N. resolutions, he failed to comply with reasons to bring the war to an end in 92', he removed inspectors from his country and would not allow them to return for four years. His downfall was his own doing, his own actions placed him where he is today. We have found biological agents, we have found chemical warfare, mustard gas, sarin gas, which he denied having. We found long range missiles, which he denied having. We found he had been dealing with terrorists. We found training camps in his country to the north. We found terrorists had resided in his country. We found another form of WMD, by the mass graves uncovered.

we even stated that publicly.. of course, they had to toss in a couple nuances in order to keep the water muddy, and keep bush almighty's ass off of the coals. you can put up pictures of planes hidden in the sand till the cows come home, but it won't help your apologist stance at all.

So, you acknowledge Hussein was a liar?

[bishop]

you're beginning to go off on tangents - talking about the legality of the war, precursors, mass graves, etc... no actual wmd's, no active wmd programs. sorry, but i won't buy the smoke and mirrors game.

also, could it be possible that saddam destroyed everything? could it also be possible that the inspectors, prior to 9/11 were successful in destroying all known wmd's (as ritter suggests)?

hussein was a liar, so too is bush as well as his cronies.. your point? the inspectors didn't find anything that vindicates bush.. a handful of this's and that's - even at worst, these sparse items did not pose a threat significant enough to justify an illegal war characterized as defending americans from a hypothetical imminent attack.

[The American]

Quote by: bishop you're beginning to go off on tangents - talking about the legality of the war, precursors, mass graves, etc... no actual wmd's, no active wmd programs. sorry, but i won't buy the smoke and mirrors game. also, could it be possible that saddam destroyed everything? could it also be possible that the inspectors, prior to 9/11 were successful in destroying all known wmd's (as ritter suggests)? hussein was a liar, so too is bush as well as his cronies.. your point? the inspectors didn't find anything that vindicates bush.. a handful of this's and that's - even at worst, these sparse items did not pose a threat significant enough to justify an illegal war characterized as defending americans from a hypothetical imminent attack.

**Laughs**

Tangents? You have had the ability to maintain subject matter? You choose to believe outdated reports, and mis-quote them. Yet you confirm Hussein is a liar. Inspectors didn't have a chnace to find what they were looking for. You think it could be done over night? Think again. The subject matter is what happen to this stuff? The article clearly states backed by reports to the Security Council, these sites were being looted and destroyed before invasion, and after. Hussein has been found with what he claimed not to have.

Iraq was known to have had large WMD stockpiles at least until 1991. In the following 12 years, Iraq refused to destroy, or adequately account for the destruction of, all those WMD as required by multiple UN resolutions.

After the U.S. led coalition invaded Iraq, the ISG searched a tiny fraction of Iraq and found 53 chemical weapons and evidence of concealed research and development activities. The ISG cannot conclude whether the missing WMD were unilaterally destroyed by Iraq, hidden in Iraq, or transported out of Iraq. Any of those possible alternatives would have been in violation of multiple UN resolutions. It is also possible that WMD exist in weapon caches or munitions sites not searched by the ISG.

Now, perspective;

Iraq is about the size of California. Let me do some math for you. The ratio of the area of Iraq to the area of a two car garage is about 5 billion to one. The ratio of the volume of a haystack to the volume of a small sewing needle is about 5 million to one. That is, finding WMD in Iraq is 1000 times more difficult than finding a needle in a haystack. And that only includes the surface of Iraq.

What about underground? I have shown you what was hidden there, and you scoffed about it. The thing is, you cannot prove me wrong in my findings. And, furthermore, it is insane to believe there is none period. You fail to present answers to my questions, instead, you base value on non existance. In which you fail to prove as well.

[Gorgo]

There wasn't a square inch of Iraq that wasn't covered by satellite spying, on the ground spies, inspectors, bombers and who knows what. The Bush administration said that they knew exactly where the weapons of mass destruction were.

The only thing that would have made this murderous attack legal, was only to remove the threat of an imminent attack.

There was never any threat to anyone after Gulf War I from Iraq. Not even Kuwait was worried.

You have no idea what you're talking about, American. You pile nonsense on top of nonsense in the hope that some of it sticks on the wall. You ignore what everyone else posts and call it bunk without even reading it.

Get another topic. You either have no concept of reality or you're just putting us on.

[The American]

Quote by: Gorgo There wasn't a square inch of Iraq that wasn't covered by satellite spying, on the ground spies, inspectors, bombers and who knows what. The Bush administration said that they knew exactly where the weapons of mass destruction were. The only thing that would have made this murderous attack legal, was only to remove the threat of an imminent attack. There was never any threat to anyone after Gulf War I from Iraq. Not even Kuwait was worried. You have no idea what you're talking about, American. You pile nonsense on top of nonsense in the hope that some of it sticks on the wall. You ignore what everyone else posts and call it bunk without even reading it. Get another topic. You either have no concept of reality or you're just putting us on.

You would like another topic, wouldn't you? Why? Trying to re-evatulate the decisions to go to war, seems to me a little bit like deciding at the end of the year not that it was foolish to have purchased insurance becuase your house didn't burn down.

***Laughs hysterically***

[RickSp]

Well I am busy for a day or two and I miss all this nonsense. Guess it proves the value of keeping busy.

Once upon a time we talked about knee-jerk liberals. I suppose now we face knee-jerk conservatives. There is something so laughable about this entire discussion. There were no WMD to be found, but that doesn't stop the knee jerk conservatives from obsessing about meaningless minutea or completely misinterpretting or outright mistating articles that have nothing to do with their particular fantasies.

Hard to say whether this is arrogance, stupidity or merely delusions that they refuse to relinquish. Amusing in a perverse sort of way.

[bishop]

yeah.. that's the point i was trying to drive home, but clearly it was rejected without explanation. interesting display of "logic" when the big glaring details are ignored in order to protect the ego/argument.

the latest tangent "the american" offered us is along the lines of "these things take time".. funny though - because that wasn't the attitude the pro-war people pushed when the u.n. was there... but now, in yet another attempt to save face, they beg for more time and understanding. amazing.....

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: The American You would like another topic, wouldn't you? Why? Trying to re-evatulate the decisions to go to war, seems to me a little bit like deciding at the end of the year not that it was foolish to have purchased insurance becuase your house didn't burn down. ***Laughs hysterically***

This is a joke, right?? You're not seriously claiming this war is justified because we've managed to dig up a few items (including your best and funniest item, a plane with no wings buried in the sand) that may or may not have been weapons related are you?? Where are all these "thousands of tons" of WMD's that Powelll went before the UN and claimed we had proof of? Ok, if they can't show us that, then just show us the proof we claimed to have. Not "it appeared that", "observations by government employees", "strong indications", or "There are indications", but something real and tangible.

Read Bush's speech in Cincinnati (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0021007-8.html) and compare it with reality. If there weren't already thousands dead in this insane ego trip of Bush's, your continuing feeble attempts to justify the war would be pitiful.

And if you're really worried about that Soviet built plane they dug up, we have an F-104 mounted on display down at our local airport that can counter the threat.

[The American]

Quote by: RickSp Well I am busy for a day or two and I miss all this nonsense. Guess it proves the value of keeping busy. Once upon a time we talked about knee-jerk liberals. I suppose now we face knee-jerk conservatives. There is something so laughable about this entire discussion. There were no WMD to be found, but that doesn't stop the knee jerk conservatives from obsessing about meaningless minutea or completely misinterpretting or outright mistating articles that have nothing to do with their particular fantasies. Hard to say whether this is arrogance, stupidity or merely delusions that they refuse to relinquish. Amusing in a perverse sort of way.

To answer you and bishop's point you are trying to drive home, how about swallow this;

The New York Times to the left is the same relationship to Fox and the right. Subject title;

Looting at Weapons Plants Was Systematic, Iraqi Says

Content;

equipment capable of making parts for missiles as well as chemical, biological and nuclear arms was missing from 8 or 10 sites that were the heart of Iraq's dormant program on unconventional weapons.......... Targeted looting of this kind of equipment has to be seen as a proliferation threat," said Gary Milhollin, director of the Wisconsin Project on Nuclear Arms Control, a private nonprofit organization in Washington that tracks the spread of unconventional weapons........ Before the invasion, the United Nations was monitoring those kinds of sites. Two senior officials of the monitoring commission said in an interview that their agency's analysis of satellite reconnaissance photos of Iraq showed visible looting and destruction at five of the seven sites that had been cited by Dr. Araji............ Officials at the United Nations monitoring agency said some areas of the sprawling Qaqaa installation involved in chemical processing had been wrecked by fire and possible extensive looting. Unknown is the fate of such equipment there like separators, heat exchangers, mixers and chemical reactors, all of which can be used in making chemical weapons.......... The recent monitoring agency report said Unmovic had asked Iraq's neighbors if they were aware of whether any equipment under agency monitoring had moved in or through their countries. Syrian officials, it said, replied that "no relevant scrap from Iraq had passed through Syria." The agency, the report added, had yet to receive a response from Iran and Saudi Arabia................ The monitoring commission has filed regular reports to the Security Council since raising alarms last May about looting in Iraq, the dismantlement of important weapons installations and the export of dangerous materials to foreign states. Officials of the commission and the atomic energy agency have repeatedly called on the Iraqi government to report on what it knows of the fate of the thousands of pieces of monitored equipment and stockpiles of monitored chemicals and materials.

These are weapons plants. This is equipment was used to make weapons. This equipment is gone. According to the statement above, chemicals have also disappeared. According to you people, there was no WMD. A left supporting NYT, comes out and admits there was. Knee jerk? That's a laugh. And Rick my friend, taken directly from your statements;

4. The point of the NYTimes article, which you so obviously missed, is that the US invasion resulted in lots of nasty hardware being left in the hands of insurgents. And not addressed by the article, but a serious point nevertheless, is that 250 million tons of conventional arms is missing and believed to be in the hands of the insurgents. Bush's war has done what he claimed he was trying to prevent - it has turned Saddam's weapons over the terrorists.

This stuff didn't exist to you guys.

Now you blame Bush for a subject that has been denied by the left since election campaignes were in place. Will someone please make up their minds here? If you people could make up your minds which way you want to push this, it would be a lot easier for me.

First, Saddam had no way of even making these weapons, now they are missing? Thanks for a knowledging that for me Rick, And thanks for trying to get this point across as well bishop, I fully understand what you are telling me.,

[The American]

Bush's war has done what he claimed he was trying to prevent - it has turned Saddam's weapons over the terrorists.

Rick now admits WMD. Rick has justified the war in Iraq.

[OberonDOtherseid]

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Ironic isn't it? Being all wrapped up in vilifying Bush he doesn't even notice he has justified Bush completely!

[bishop]

"the american"... so now you're talking about the looting that happened at unsecured sites after we toppled saddam's regime? you're a comedian if i ever saw one. not buying that bait either. you show me wmd stockpiles and/or active wmd programs, then i'll concede the argument.. otherwise, you're just picking at scraps. bush and his trainers have dropped wmd as being an argument for war - funny that you're still trying to vindicate him on that line. the country has already proven that facts don't matter since they voted for the liar.


and it's funny that you chose not to bold this line from your own material: "Before the invasion, the United Nations was monitoring those kinds of sites."

so let's see.. in the best case scenario, for the apologists - there were wmd programs, and our piss poor post-war planning allowed looters to make off with the equipment. in the worst case scenario for the apologists, there were no wmd's, and the equipment to produce them was looted away. thanks, i sure feel much safer now! :)

[Lilith]

Question?

Were any WMD ever actually made from any of the materials that were looted? It seems like that there were alot of ingrediants for the recipe, but was the recipe ever put together? I seem to remember always hearing in news report that were "huge, stockpiles of WMD's in Iraq".....seems like there are implications that "this and that" was looted. Suspicious.

[The American]

Quote by: bishop "the american"... so now you're talking about the looting that happened at unsecured sites after we toppled saddam's regime? you're a comedian if i ever saw one. not buying that bait either. you show me wmd stockpiles and/or active wmd programs, then i'll concede the argument.. otherwise, you're just picking at scraps. bush and his trainers have dropped wmd as being an argument for war - funny that you're still trying to vindicate him on that line. the country has already proven that facts don't matter since they voted for the liar. and it's funny that you chose not to bold this line from your own material: "Before the invasion, the United Nations was monitoring those kinds of sites." so let's see.. in the best case scenario, for the apologists - there were wmd programs, and our piss poor post-war planning allowed looters to make off with the equipment. in the worst case scenario for the apologists, there were no wmd's, and the equipment to produce them was looted away. thanks, i sure feel much safer now! :)

Go back and read what Kay and Deulfer has to say. They both believe once the sanctions were lifted, Hussein would immediately pick up where he left off. Kay had stated it was possible they had been moved to a neighboring state. Now, if you were building dolls, would you raid a plastic explosive plant for the material? It doesn't tkae a rocket scientist to put two and two together, nuclear weapons plants were also raided. Who really close to Iraq has started developing a nuclear program now? Who is Israel squinting really hard at? Can you be this naive not to see it as only a coincidence? Rick understands.

Officials of the commission and the atomic energy agency have repeatedly called on the Iraqi government to report on what it knows of the fate of the thousands of pieces of monitored equipment and stockpiles of monitored chemicals and materials.

[The American]

Quote by: Lilith Question? Were any WMD ever actually made from any of the materials that were looted? It seems like that there were alot of ingrediants for the recipe, but was the recipe ever put together? I seem to remember always hearing in news report that were "huge, stockpiles of WMD's in Iraq".....seems like there are implications that "this and that" was looted. Suspicious.

It seems my friend, nothing has been accounted for, and everything is missing.

Al Qaqaa, with some 1,100 structures, manufactured powerful explosives that could be used for conventional missile warheads and for setting off a nuclear detonation. Last fall, Iraqi government officials warned the United States and international nuclear inspectors that some 377 tons of those explosives were missing after the invasion. But Al Qaqaa also contained a wide variety of weapons manufacturing machinery, including 800 pieces of chemical equipment.

Now, what kind of thief would hit weapon's plants in order to retreive equipment to make commercial jet turbine engines? There must really be a high demand for such machinery.

The kinds of machinery at the various sites included equipment that could be used to make missile parts, chemical weapons or centrifuges essential for enriching uranium for atom bombs. All of that "dual use" equipment also has peaceful applications - for example, a tool to make parts for a nuclear implosion device or for a powerful commercial jet turbine.

I would lean toward nuclear production. ***Hint Hint------- Iran***

Something smells awful fishy...............................

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: The American Something smells awful fishy...............................

yeah, unfortunately (for you), it's your posts.

[The American]

Quote by: Zeebadee yeah, unfortunately (for you), it's your posts.

Meaning? Please do go on, but remember, insults and rhetoric causes embarrassment, you are judged by your own words. Ask Rick.