"Evidence of WMD"

[Gorgo]

So far, American, you've shown that the attack on Iraq ensured that tons of weapons were lost to who knows who. You've shown speculation that Saddam Hussein wanted to produce weapons of mass destruction, but probably had none. You've ignored all evidence that you are supporting a criminal enterprise by saying, 'debunked.'

Please don't start threads that even you aren't going to take seriously.

[Lilith]

I have a few questions and I hope they don't come off as stupid, since I feel that I'm out of my element in this forum at times. Not that is a bad thing, just that so many people seem so smart and articulate(and I do mean that as a compliment.)

About 6 years ago, I worked with this guy who had been in the military in the first Gulf War and he told me that back then at any given time that Saddam was in the sites of snipers and could have been taken out, if someone would have just given the command. Mind you back during the first Gulf War, I was in highschool, and quite frankly did not pay much attention to it.
So why is it that noone gave the command to take him out then? If he is such a horrible, baddy dictator.....

And second question, where is Osama Bin Laden? Is that a stupid question? I mean is he not the evil mastermind behing 911?

I hope noone laughs at me for asking these questions.

Btw, Bishop, I do like your signature. Eerie. Makes me think.

[Matt W]

Lilith - Bin Laden? Who knows....check this out - the Pakistanis reckon they've lost him:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4349461.stm

As for not 'taking him out'...at the end of the day, that's not what the original Gulf War was all about. It was about kicking him out of Kuwait to stabilise the region...at the time, the US & allies had no intention of occupying Iraq - hence the failed Shia revolt in the south of Iraq just after the war. It's all about the policymakers in place at the time.

[Lou Minotti]

Quote by: OberonDOtherseid Yea, only white people conspire, keep thinking that.

HA!!!!!!!!! Youy haven't been paying attention at all have you?

[The American]

Quote by: Gorgo So far, American, you've shown that the attack on Iraq ensured that tons of weapons were lost to who knows who. You've shown speculation that Saddam Hussein wanted to produce weapons of mass destruction, but probably had none. You've ignored all evidence that you are supporting a criminal enterprise by saying, 'debunked.' Please don't start threads that even you aren't going to take seriously.

WMD Findings Reported To Date From Dec., 2002 through June, 2004 Date: Dec 4, 2002 Place: al-Muthanna Outfit: UN inspectors Finding: mustard gas & shells Effects: Source: [UN, AP, Fox News] Date: Apr 5, 2003 Place: Euphrates River near Nasiriyah Outfit: marines Finding: mustard gas and cyanide [believed to have been dumped in the Euphrates either by Iraqi soldiers fleeing from American troops or local factories that produced weapons of mass destruction.] Effects: Source: [London Daily Telegraph; MSNBC, citing marine officials] Date: Apr 5, 2003 Place: Albu Muhawish on the Euphrates River about 100km south of Baghdad Outfit: 101st Airborne Finding: tabun and sarin, plus 55-gallon chemical drums, hundreds of gas masks and chemical suits Effects: more than a dozen soldiers; vomiting, dizziness and skin blotches. [soldiers hosed down with water and bleach] Source: [Knight Ridder reporter, and CNN] Date: Apr 6, 2003 Place: near airport Karbala, just south of Hindiyah Place: near Baghdad Outfit: marines Finding: mobile biological- or chemical-weapons lab Effects: Source: [Fox News, Rick Leventhal] Date: Apr 9, 11, 2003 Place: underground tunnels at al Tawaitha facility, 18 mi. south of Baghdad Outfit: marines Finding: stocks of low-grade nuclear materials, uranium and possibly plutonium Effects: radiation levels are high [many drums of highly radioactive material] Source: [Capt. John Seegar; Pittsburgh Tribune-Review][Lt. Cmdr. Charles Owens] Date: Apr 12, 2003 Place: northern Iraqi air base in Kirkut Outfit: army intelligence posting Finding: chemical warhead with trace amounts of nerve gas Effects: Source: [military sources to CNN] Date: Apr 25, 2003 Place: site east of Bayji, Iraq Outfit: U.S. Special Forces reconnaissance team later: experts from Army's 1-10 Cavalry Finding: a dozen 55-gallon drums; mixture of three chemicals, including a nerve agent and blistering agent Effects: Source: [Lt. Col. Ted Martin of the 10th Cavalry Regiment; Lt. Valerie Phipps, cited by ABC News] Date: May 9, 2003 Place: near Mosul, Iraq Outfit: 101st Airborne Finding: mobile biological weapons laboratory [incomplete] Effects: Source: [Army Maj. Gen. David H. Petraeus] Date: Oct 4, 2003 Place: Iraqi scientist's refrigerator Outfit: U.S. arms inspectors led by David Kay Finding: vial of botulinum bacteria [the most poisonous substance known to man] Effects: Source: [Richard Boucher, State Dept. spokesman to Agence France-Presse WorldNetDaily.com] Date: May - Oct, 2003 Place: various parts of Iraq Outfit: U.S. arms inspectors led by David Kay Finding: "a clandestine network of biological laboratories"; dozens of WMD- related program activities and significant amounts of equipment" Effects: Source: [Richard Boucher, State Dept. spokesman to Agence France-Presse, WorldNetDaily.com] Date: Oct 4, 2003 [earlier in wk] Place: smuggled from Iraq to Kuwait [destination:. a Eur. country] Outfit: Kuwaiti security forces Finding: biological and chemical weapons, and biological. warheads Effects: Source: [Kuwaiti newspaper Al-Siyassah WorldNetDaily.com] Date: January 4, 2004 Place: Al Quarnah near Basra Outfit: Danish troops Finding: 200 Iraqi mortar shells containing a deadly liquid blister agent Effects: Multiple tests [conducted in Iraq by Danish and British experts] all confirm shells contain blister agent Source: Danish official sources to Fox News Channel, Reuters and the Associated Press [find also confirmed by Ali Nimir, a former colonel in an Iraqi Republican Guard artillery unit] Date: April 17, 2004 Place: Amman, Jordan, 75 miles from the Syrian border [believed derived from Iraq] Outfit: Jordanian officials Finding: al-Qaida car "carried explosives, a chemical bomb and poisonous gas." Effects: "The bomb, had it been detonated, could have affected people in a one-kilometer radius and cause the deaths of up to 20,000 people," Jordanian officials told Maariv. Source: Jordanian officials to the London-based newspaper al-Hayat ; see also the Israeli newspaper Maariv; U.P.I. Date: April 26, 2004 Place: Baghdad Outfit: U.S. troops Finding: workshop "suspected of producing and supplying chemical agents" to Iraqi insurgents] Effects: [workshop exploded in flames Monday moments after U.S. troops broke in to search it] Source: Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt; Fox News; A.P. Date: c. May 3, 2004 Place: Baghdad Outfit: U.S. military units Finding: artillery shell containing trace elements of mustard agent Effects: [analysis confirmed] Source: senior Bush Admin. official to Fox News Date: [rptd] May 17, 2004 Place: Baghdad Outfit: U.S. military units Finding: 155-millimeter artillery shell containing chemical cweapon sarin Effects: two American soldiers who removed the round had symptoms of low-level nerve agent exposure [analysis confirmed] Source: Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt to Fox News Date: late June, 2004; rptd July 2, 2004 Place: South-central Iraq Outfit: Polish troops Finding: 16-17 warheads, containing cyclosarin, a deadly nerve agent Effects: a very toxic gas, five times stronger than sarin and five times more durable Source: Gen. Marek Dukaczewski and Polish Gen. Mieczyslaw Bieniek to Polish TV; A.P., Newsmax Date: 1999 - 2000 [causes]; 2003-2004[effects] Place: [cause] laboratories outside Iraq [per Iraqi defector quoting Saddam]; Cuba [per Cuban defectors] Outfit: Iraqi and Cuban defectors [causes]; health officials [effects] Finding: strain SV 141 of the West Nile virus Effects: [initial effects] Florida Keys and eastern half of U.S., now spreading throughout U.S. and Israel Source: Richard Preston in The New Yorker magazine, (7/12/99); Joseph Farah in WND, (6/27/04) Date: June 19 -23, 2004 Place: sprawling Tuwaitha nuclear complex, 12 miles south of Baghdad [removed to U.S.] Outfit: U.S. nuclear authorities (U.S. National Nuclear Security Admin.) Finding: (1) c. 1.8 tons of uranium, enriched to a level of 2.6 %, (2) 6.6 lbs. of low-enriched uranium, (3) c. 1,000 highly radioactive sources* Effects: *[3, cont.] that could be used in so-called "dirty bombs" Source: (1) Spencer Abraham, U.S. Energy Scty.; (2) Paul Longsworth, Dep.Admin. for def. nuclear nonprolif. in the U.S. Natl. Nuclear Secur. Admin., (A.P., 7/07/04)

I take this subject seriously.

[The American]

Quote by: Lilith I have a few questions and I hope they don't come off as stupid, since I feel that I'm out of my element in this forum at times. Not that is a bad thing, just that so many people seem so smart and articulate(and I do mean that as a compliment.) About 6 years ago, I worked with this guy who had been in the military in the first Gulf War and he told me that back then at any given time that Saddam was in the sites of snipers and could have been taken out, if someone would have just given the command. Mind you back during the first Gulf War, I was in highschool, and quite frankly did not pay much attention to it. So why is it that noone gave the command to take him out then? If he is such a horrible, baddy dictator..... And second question, where is Osama Bin Laden? Is that a stupid question? I mean is he not the evil mastermind behing 911? I hope noone laughs at me for asking these questions. Btw, Bishop, I do like your signature. Eerie. Makes me think.

If the compliment is directed toward me, thank you. I do not consider myself, or anyone else here "stupid". You raise very good questions.

So why is it that noone gave the command to take him out then?

Diplomacy. There is a time to stop persuing diplomacy, especially, if it is not working. Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggie", until you find a rock. A man with rocks in his hand, is wiser than a man with rocks in his head.

where is Osama Bin Laden

Who knows for sure? It is considered he is in the mountains of Tora Bora. This region is very rough, and tunnels into that mountain are a maze. If he is there, why don't we send in enough troops to flush him out? I don't know that either, it is a question of my own. We do know he and his men are heavily armed, with god knows what. He is crazy enough to draw vast armies into at, and could have the capability to bring the mountain down on himself and others. It is to my knowledge, the hunt for him has not stopped. In that terrain, it takes time. We know from past reports from Pakistan, they have captured top AlQaeda officials in the hunt. They have also been involved in heavy combat with heavily armed combatants.

I hope noone laughs at me for asking these questions.

Never, I will not laugh at questions my dear. I have asked them myself, as well as others. They are good questions.

[The American]

Quote by: Zeebadee "Dr. Araji's statements came just a week after a United Nations agency disclosed that approximately 90 important sites in Iraq had been looted or razed in that period." So you're implying that the UN inspectors completely missed every one of these sites during their inspections before the invasion? One of them had 1100 structures! Can you name a single site that the inspectors were denied access to? "But American officials have said in the past that while they were aware of the importance of some of the installations, there was not enough military personnel to guard all of them during and after the invasion." The entire point of the invasion was to negate these so-called WMD production sites, and now they are telling us they didn't even send enough military personnel to accomplish this primary mission?? Who can possibly believe this? "Dr. Araji, whose tenure with the ministry goes back to the 1980's, is now involved in plans to use the sites as manufacturing centers in what the ministry hopes will be a new free-market economy in Iraq. He said that disappointment at losing such valuable equipment was a prime reason that the ministry was determined to speak frankly about what had happened." If this guy had planned to use the missing equipment for his manufacturing centers, then that equipment wasn't solely designed for weapons building.

1. Implying? No. They have admitted they did.

Per the Kay report,

“We have discovered dozens of WMD-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations during the inspections that began in late 2002.”

2. We also understand the a lot of looting took place before invasion. And yes, that is what they are telling you. I have stated for quite some time now, not enough force to complete the job. However, it is the commanders on the ground who are required to request more manpower. They are our eyes and ears on the ground. In this, we have failed.

3. Right again. Machinery and equipment can be designed and used for building other things, such as stated in the report, turbine engines. However, I would be skeptical in turning this missing equipment loose with them without being monitored. It was a violation Hussein made as he shuffled inspectors out of his country. You have to take into consideration as well, this equipment was at weapons installations. What was it being used for?

You are thinking, that is the sole purpose of this thread. Nice post.

[The American]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Yeah, TA, there do seem to be a few unanswered questions. What I am wondering about is why the US Military, who are reportedly commanded by Sec. of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, couldn't at least PROTECT all of those WMDs. Especially since Rumsfeld told us that their locations were known: http://www.stopdubya.com/WMDeception.htm Why not send a few guys over with a fifty cal mounted on a Humvee, just to make sure that the dang terr'ists on slimy ol' Saddam's payroll couldn't sneak off with stuff to hurt the innocent? And didn't US forces have 100% air superiority? Couldn't they just keep an air lookout on the places that have now been emptied of all the nukey things? Geez, I guess we'll just have to glumly wait till that dang Zarkawwy pops off a nuke in some poor US city. Then maybe we can get the martial law going in America that will REALLY put a stop to all that terror... Seriously, TA, I am profoundly suspicious of everything in the mass media, and the lies from Washington don't actually help to put me back to sleep. I don't subscribe to the official story of anything. Not 9/11, not OK City, not Waco, not Ruby Ridge. Not the CIA, the rupublic, the elections in America, the goodwill of the political elite, nada. Well, okay, the moon landing was real, heh. But my opinion of the players in Washington is that they are chess players of some accomplishment. Meaning that they scope out moves far in advance of their opponents (us, the "little people"). But... their hubris sometimes may lead to over-reaching and hopefully to a downfall at some point. Because if their calculations are accurate to the endgame, Joe and Jane Sixpack are checkmated, and they don't even know that they're in the game... Me, I am just hoping for a little pickup sidegame of Chinese Checkers...

Thanks for responding. I agree statements made by were pretty stupid. We all make stupid statements in our lifetime that come back to bite us in the tail. However, it is not taken lightly in matters of such importance. I face the same aggravation toward him. I am as well skeptical of what the media brings. I look for other sources to confirm. I look to reports put out by officials, and search for errors. When I see reports of such intensity put out, I think one of three things, one, political gain. I cannot tie it to political gain. Two, truth, I cannot prove it is a lie. Three, diversion. A cover up if you will. A decoy of attention. Which is totally possible. This should prove to you, I have common sense, that I do not allow it to be clouded by a dying support of anyone.

What I do hunt is for truth, regardless of the ugly head it may turn. Set up that checker board, I may join you.

[Gorgo]

May I ask your source for this? Frontpagemag.com? This vial of botulinum bacteria was not the kind that is the most poisonous substance known to man.

Quote by: The American Date: Oct 4, 2003 Place: Iraqi scientist's refrigerator Outfit: U.S. arms inspectors led by David Kay Finding: vial of botulinum bacteria [the most poisonous substance known to man] Effects: Source: [Richard Boucher, State Dept. spokesman to Agence France-Presse WorldNetDaily.com]

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: The American 1. Implying? No. They have admitted they did. Per the Kay report, “We have discovered dozens of WMD-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations during the inspections that began in late 2002.” 2. We also understand the a lot of looting took place before invasion. And yes, that is what they are telling you. I have stated for quite some time now, not enough force to complete the job. However, it is the commanders on the ground who are required to request more manpower. They are our eyes and ears on the ground. In this, we have failed. 3. Right again. Machinery and equipment can be designed and used for building other things, such as stated in the report, turbine engines. However, I would be skeptical in turning this missing equipment loose with them without being monitored. It was a violation Hussein made as he shuffled inspectors out of his country. You have to take into consideration as well, this equipment was at weapons installations. What was it being used for? You are thinking, that is the sole purpose of this thread. Nice post.

1. If all this equipment is missing, then how do we know it was ever really there? If, as per the Kay report, the inspectors discovered "significant amounts of equipment" then they must have found it before it was supposedly looted. So where is it now? Let's see it. I don't believe that with all the U-2, UAV, and satellite overflights that the UN Inspectors could possibly miss 90 large, high value "weapons" sites. There's simply no way to miss a site that has 1100 structures.

2. We have suicide bombers target U.S. troops every day in Iraq, yet saddam was never once targeted despite routine photo ops of him walking around in public in various cities. The Bushistas claim that he had such a firm control on everyone and everything that no one could get at him. Yet now we are supposed to believe that looters had such a free reign to operate that they could bring in cranes and heavy trucks to loot valuable and important equipment and facilities in broad daylight with impunity. This one doesn't pass the common sense test.

3. "The threat posed by these types of facilities was cited by the Bush administration as a reason for invading Iraq, but the installations were left largely unguarded by allied forces in the chaotic months after the invasion." So why hasn't Bush been held accountable for this gross dereliction of duty? Isn't he the Commander in Chief?

[bishop]

look at how many of the allegations come from worldnetdaily, fox, newsmax, etc... interesting that "the american" criticized other sources like salon, but seems ready to accept what other sources offer. as an aside - salon is an editorial outfit to the best of my knowledge. they don't pretend to be news reporters as garbage places like wnd and newsmax do.

i don't buy the bullshit.. if we did, in fact, find all these things - i would've expected the administration to have shown this to the world and win its vindication. they made LOTS of allegations.. everything from how saddam could have a nuke within a matter of months, to saddam being involved in 9/11/al-qaeda..

neither the u.n., nor anybody else, said that the administration's allegations were the truth. at best, loyalists keep pushing these murky factoids in hope of vindication that they will never receive - because we never found anything that would truly catch saddam red handed.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...2-un-wmd_x.htm

[The American]

Quote by: Gorgo May I ask your source for this? Frontpagemag.com? This vial of botulinum bacteria was not the kind that is the most poisonous substance known to man.

Is it harmful to another? Is it rhetoric? You chose one, yet they are from different sources. The main post was taken from The New York Times. Do your research and find as many bias editorials in it against Bush. You will find plenty. So what are you telling me? If I quote from a bias source, there will be many other sources with it. Have you done this? Or do you choose just one? Tunnel vision is not healthy.

[Gorgo]

You have yet to read anything I posted and respond to it with anything approaching intelligent debate, so don't start with me about tunnel vision. Where did you get the lie that I asked you about?

Quote by: The American If I quote from a bias source, there will be many other sources with it.

[The American]

Quote by: bishop look at how many of the allegations come from worldnetdaily, fox, newsmax, etc... interesting that "the american" criticized other sources like salon, but seems ready to accept what other sources offer. as an aside - salon is an editorial outfit to the best of my knowledge. they don't pretend to be news reporters as garbage places like wnd and newsmax do. i don't buy the bullshit.. if we did, in fact, find all these things - i would've expected the administration to have shown this to the world and win its vindication. they made LOTS of allegations.. everything from how saddam could have a nuke within a matter of months, to saddam being involved in 9/11/al-qaeda.. neither the u.n., nor anybody else, said that the administration's allegations were the truth. at best, loyalists keep pushing these murky factoids in hope of vindication that they will never receive - because we never found anything that would truly catch saddam red handed. http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...2-un-wmd_x.htm

Okay, then do yourself a favor. Don't take my word for it. There are hundreds of people who have returned from Iraq. Ask them to confirm.

As far as using your source as a reference to discredit, use a valid source.

But U.N. reports submitted to the Security Council before the war by Hans Blix, former chief U.N. arms inspector, and Mohamed ElBaradei, head of the U.N.'s nuclear watchdog agency, have been largely validated by U.S. weapons teams. The common findings: Iraq's nuclear weapons program was dormant.

Your source's source is outdated. Actions of an irresponsible reporter. What has Blix said about WMD?

"Iraq has declared that it produced about 8,500 litres of this biological warfare agent [Anthrax], which it states it unilaterally destroyed in the summer of 1991. Iraq has provided little evidence for this production and no convincing evidence for its destruction. There are strong indications that Iraq produced more anthrax than it declared, and that at least some of this was retained after the declared destruction date. It might still exist." Hans Blix, Report to UN Security Council, January 27, 2003

Look up the report and prove me wrong.

[The American]

[quote]

Quote by: Zeebadee 1. If all this equipment is missing, then how do we know it was ever really there? If, as per the Kay report, the inspectors discovered "significant amounts of equipment" then they must have found it before it was supposedly looted. So where is it now? Let's see it. I don't believe that with all the U-2, UAV, and satellite overflights that the UN Inspectors could possibly miss 90 large, high value "weapons" sites. There's simply no way to miss a site that has 1100 structures.

There were more sites than these, some were not inspected yet. Read the UN reports to the Security Council..

There are many things that were missed. Please do not forget, Hussein was a leader of deception.

2. We have suicide bombers target U.S. troops every day in Iraq, yet saddam was never once targeted despite routine photo ops of him walking around in public in various cities. The Bushistas claim that he had such a firm control on everyone and everything that no one could get at him. Yet now we are supposed to believe that looters had such a free reign to operate that they could bring in cranes and heavy trucks to loot valuable and important equipment and facilities in broad daylight with impunity. This one doesn't pass the common sense test.

Where do you get the facts Saddam was never targeted for assasination? It was not terrorists that would target him, it would be his own people. He supported terrorism. Did he not fund suicide bombers? As far as being a target, do you forget one of his sons walked with a limp, due to an an attempt on his life? It was one of the things that confirmed his death. Injury to a leg substained by it.

3. "The threat posed by these types of facilities was cited by the Bush administration as a reason for invading Iraq, but the installations were left largely unguarded by allied forces in the chaotic months after the invasion." So why hasn't Bush been held accountable for this gross dereliction of duty? Isn't he the Commander in Chief?

That is precisely why I have requested these questions to be brought under fire for answers. These findings need to be accounted for. Who is responsible?

[The American]

Quote by: Gorgo You have yet to read anything I posted and respond to it with anything approaching intelligent debate, so don't start with me about tunnel vision. Where did you get the lie that I asked you about?

The proposed lie? Only if proved to be wrong.


Richard Boucher, State Dept. spokesman

Prove me wrong. Did you miss the other sources with it? I thought the post was rather long, full of sources and quotes.

[Gorgo]

You spoke with Richard Boucher and he told you that the toxin found was one of the most "poisonous substance known to man?"

[The American]

Quote by: Gorgo You spoke with Richard Boucher and he told you that the toxin found was one of the most "poisonous substance known to man?"

Common knowledge. You should be familiar with it.

Botulism is a rare but potentially fatal disorder. It is caused by a toxin, or poison, produced by the bacteria Clostridium botulinum. What is going on in the body? Botulinum toxins are among the most powerful poisons known. http://health.discovery.com/encyclopedias/283.html

So, do you wish to continue the claim of rhetoric? It is not rhetoric, it is fact. Is it bias? No it is not. It is fact. Please do your homework. Unless, you are looking for me to show you? Then I will quickly do. Do I hear a thank you?

[bishop]

speaking of irresponsibility "the american"... who are you trying to fool? parsing statements blix made as if to use them to bolster the bogus allegations that the allegations about wmd were true is a poor tactic.

what does blix think about wmd in iraq? from the horse's mouth, something more current than your outdated quote: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/inter...blix_3-17.html

HANS BLIX: Well, they certainly advanced weapons of mass destruction as the decisive reason for going to war, and I think the evidence was rather weak at the time. We had heard in the autumn of 2002 that the alleged aluminum tubes, for instance, which were thought, alleged to be for making the centrifuges, were probably more likely to be for making a rocket. And in January 2003, we had performed quite a lot of inspections to sites which were given by intelligence and they had not shown any weapons of mass destruction, so we began to be doubtful. And among the 700 inspections that we performed, none brought us any evidence of weapons of mass destruction. I warned the Security Council about that. Yet, there might have been other evidence and Colin Powell came before the Security Council and he brought some evidence, which we could not check. And I think that by now most of the evidence has fallen apart.

to date, the best argument apologists can muster is to compile a list of minute, and unconvincing, items - praying to god that they can get vindication that way. all the while, ignoring blatant lies like when rumsfeld said that we knew where they were.. or cheney pushing the "saddam can build a nuke at any time" argument.. the "slam dunk" tenet spoke of didn't have to do with factual intelligence that saddam had wmd (the senate's post-war assessment proved that everything we said was a theoretical opinion - not fact) - the "slam dunk" was that the public could be fooled into believing their lies.

[Lou Minotti]

Can anyone tell me how an outdated Russian jet, buried in the sand poses a threat to me and my family? How does any of this equal 45 minute mushroom clouds? Just wondering...