Are We Punishing Hard Work?

[Bayou]

No Venmax, their you have it wrong, hard working respectable people will drink away their paychecks if their alchoholics: I should know my dads one.
He pays off his bills 1st buys a few groceries and the rest of the money goes to the drink.
You subscribe to a rather tried steoryotype that all welfare recepients are actually alchoholics, I have seen more welpaid hard working people who have never collected welfare that deserve to be called alchoholics then unemployed.
I guess venmax youve never seen the statistics that show a black person with a higher skill level then a white worker applying to the same job, will lose the application to the white worker.
Even on a world wide scale their is racist hegemony, were asians look up to only the whites, while Indians look up to the asians and guess who takes up the bottom rung: the African.
This has more to do with the Africans being used as a slave for such a long period of history.
You point your finger and accuse people of making bad lifestyle choices, when it is the powers that be that reinforce the steoryotypes you spout and keep these people down regardless of how hard they work.
It is in their economic best interest to have a large section of the population desperate enough to work minimum wage, they will try to encourage bad lifestyle choices anyway they can.

[Section 8]

Bayou- First of all, slave is an exageration on your behalf. Do slaves get paid? The one thing preventing small business owners actually all business owners is the state. The state is what steals from you, and forms monolopolies to stifle business.

Also, Venemax, not all welfare recipeints are alchoholics or junkies.

[Venmax]

Bayou - stop trying to make it look like I'm bashing your dad! Drugs and alchohol are only one of the many poor decisions a lot of people make - and they make these decisions FIRST and THEN go for the welfare, not the other way around. If they didn't throw away all of their money on partying, brand new stereo systems, 100 dollar sneakers, and 1000 dollar tire rims, they wouldn't be on welfare in the first place. The only exception is that perhaps they are born to parents on welfare - but what are you going to do about that without violating every civil right we have?? Because the truth is the only thing you can do for almost all of the kids in those situations is take them OUT OF IT PERMANENTLY.

People have to become independent at some point. I've heard comments like "People who aren't educated can't hadle living in a free society" on this board - bullcrap. Education is nice, but did the poor European immigrants have as good an education as us when they came over?? NO. Do the poor East Asian, and Middle Easterners have as good an education as us when they land on our shores?? NO. Education is overated when compared to a strong work ethic and a strong family structure. If all the people on welfare woke up tomorrow with those things poverty would VANISH. And the sad truth is that NO GOVERNMENT PROGRAM CAN INSTILL THOSE THINGS. Can Religion? I don't know? And at this point I don't care - I'm simply tired of hearing people make excuses for people that ride the system because for too long because of their negative and lazy outlook on life.

[Suburbanite]

I think that Welfare should have a four year shelf life. Within four years, if you can't get it together, Welfare stops paying you. Oh wait, that’s already in place.

[Venmax]

/kind of agree

The whole idea behind welfare is that you are helping someone "Get back on their feet". I am totally for that, but it means that at some point they actually have to get back on their feet! I think welfare should also come with drug testing and lots of counseling classes teaching people how to manage their money and control their spending habits.

[castille]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
America has always been a country of freeloading idle rich and poor working folk. And this continues to this day.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

This is the biggest load of bullshit I've heard from a middle class college boy.

Firstly, you are assuming every rich person is a "freeloader". Have you met a single rich person, apart from the ones on television? (which the "poor working folk" spend 5-6 hours on each day)

Every rich person I've met have spent hours during their early years building their wealth. I'm spending 8-9 hours working on my business, while some moron spends the same time watching TV, then bitches about why rich people are evil.

Rich people arent freeloaders. Poor people who never bother learning are the freeloaders. Welfare collectors who use your tax money to buy a new CD system are freeloaders. Isn't it strange how so many people on welfare can afford so much takeout food?


If anyone can claim that rich people are nothing but freeloaders - then go out there, make your fortune, and see how hard it is.

In fact, I'll give $100 to the first person on this forum who can prove they save at least 50% of their income and put it into something useful.

[Bayou]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8)
The one thing preventing small business owners actually all business owners is the state. The state is what steals from you, and forms monopolies to stifle business.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Well the states is also the organ that funds all the infrastructure that those businesses rely on, funny explain to me how the govenrment hating bill gates formed his near monopoly at the behest of the federal government?
The only connection between government and monopolies are the ties beetween business controls OVER government.
Your blaming the shadow for blocking out the sun.

Venmax, true their are people like you describe who dont spend their priorities 1st, I was merely trying to point out that kicking these people off welfare might not be the solution to their problem, though neither is keeping them on welfare either- these are both sidestepping the issue entirely and its proper treatment.
As you have said, we should develop rehab and counselling instityutions to treat them rather then just turning a blind eye to the problem that is not going away.

Ah Castille, what would this site be without your chauvinistic capitalist rants.
Yes it is very hard to take money out of the hands of the rich I agree!
Fine, if you can show me a rich person taking 50% of their wealth and spending it on something that wont make them money, you have a deal!

[castille]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Bayou,)

Fine, if you can show me a rich person taking 50% of their wealth and spending it on something that wont make them money, you have a deal!<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Paris and Nicky Hilton.

Now show me your poor person who invests 50% of his money.

[Paavo]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Now show me your poor person who invests 50% of his money. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
If you're very poor, 50% can be just what gets you through the week foodwise. you can't compare the two in a way that straight IMO.

[castille]

Well how about 20%? How about 10%? How about, instead of watching a movie every week, you put that money into a fixed-term bank account? Or instead of buying new clothes, you use your old clothes (I've only brought 1 shirt since 2003), and spend that money on investment?


Early last year I was on student welfare (which is MUCH less than adult welfare). I managed to save up 60% of what I got from the government. And I still had as much entertainment as anyone else (college parties are free and so is sex), I just didnt spend excessively like 90% of the American population.


The US government should distribute booklets on how to save. And ban all credit card companies. That way we at least limit damage done by morons who cant control their shopping....

[Bayou]

Oh come on now castille, at least have a link or tell us what they have put their money towards!
Another good thing would be to show us how they made their money in the 1st place.

Thank you Paavo for bringing up something that should be obvious to the rationale of mind.....

[Paavo]

Also, going a bit philosophical but;

The American surroundings force feeds the command of consuming. Buy, buy, buy, buy. This works best on the ones that have little content in their lives, due to being unemployed / having a crappy job with no real challenges etc etc, and the little they get they use on at least feeling happy for a couple of hours (IE a movie). I think this has alot to do why poor people resort to alcohol / drugs in order to give them the same satisfaction as a CEO has, even for just a moment before waking up to the curel reality. It's an evil spiral that goes down only. I'm not poor (in the way we're talking about here), never been. Still, I've resorted to drugs / other stupid stuff in my days, to numb my unhappiness. I can only imagine how much more those "dosages of euphoria" would appeal to an adult with no visible future.
</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Early last year I was on student welfare (which is MUCH less than adult welfare). I managed to save up 60% of what I got from the government.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Did you have alot of bills to pay? Children to feed? Were you in debt of any kind? What were the background for your situation? <-- not saying those couldn't be true, just honestly wondering to make your point more clear.

[white rice]

Living on your own is drastically different than having a family. These people are poor. Saving 20% of 200 dollars is different than saving 20% on 2,000 dollars. Writing it out makes the difference look more obvious.

If you haven't had an accident in your lifetime, then you're one of the more fortunate. Paying it off without insurance might end life as you know it. And paying insurance for you and your unpredictable children makes it so that you don't have any of that 20% left. Buying a TV or watching a movie is a drop in the pond when it comes to expenses.

But middle class people have no excuse. Cable television, cell phones, and internet access are all things people don't neccesarily need. Fiscal responsibility for that group is a wreck. The average debt is around 5-10 thousand dollars per year.