Is Syria being set-up?

[Sonart]

Quote by: RickSp Observing recent events, I can't help but wonder whether Syria is being set-up or whether the Syrian government is just as dumb as a sack of hammers.

Of course they're being set up. This is political gold for our Dear Leader.

Unless the Syrians really are dumb as a bag of hammers, I see no reason not to take them at their word that they had nothing to do with the bombing. Gawd knows there's more than enough loose cannons and political splinter groups running around the mideast.

The Syrians problems are that....

A) the Lebanese truly are a bit tired of having the Syrians occupying their country. The Syrians may have been welcome as a respite from the civil war, but that was over 10 years ago. The Lebanese seem more than willing to believe the Syria was involved if it helps motivate their people to rise up against the Syrians and their puppet government in Beirut.

B) the Lebanese uprising is mana from heaven for George Bush. His inaugural address announcing the dramatic new Bush Doctrine of promoting democracy worldwide was, IMHO, simply for domestic consumption... a rousing slight of hand, a retroactive justification for the War in Iraq, which events have shown was completely unjustified and incompetently handled. Consider that while Americans generally cheered Bush's speech, few noticed that in the following days, when American alllies and partners with less than sterling records of democracy began frantically wondering aloud if this doctrine included them, the White House backed off quickly, reassuring them that our relations would remain the same.

Then the gods answered Bush's prayers, first with the death of Yassar Arafat, and then the bombing in Beirut.

With the Lebanese demonstrating in the streets, Bush could and did -- without a shred of proof -- link Syria to the bombing and begin making bellicose speeches demanding they pull out of Lebanon.

Does it matter if Syria was involved or not? At this point it doesn't. Without the Lebanese backlash, Syria could ignore Bush with impugnity as it has for the last 3 years. But with the Lebanese streets ablaze, and pressure coming from their own allies in the mideast, such as Saudi Arabia, Syria is stuck between a rock and a hard place, with little choice but to back out of Lebanon, with Bush riding the bandwagon and claiming credit all the way.


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[Gorgo]

You have to make up your mind as to whether it is true or hyperbole. You can't have it both ways. They broke the law. They lied. They are murderers. Nothing exaggerated or untrue about any of it.

Quote by: Nono And these are only examples. So it's semanitcally justifiable to call him and his minions murderous lying criminals. But rummie is right: it's hyperbolic language that serves only to heat things up. Even if true, it smacks of rant.

[rmnunez]

Although figures can be misleading, the general level of attacks since the 30 January elections is thought to have dropped a little from the highs recorded in the run-up to the poll. One security analysis showed 727 insurgent attacks of one sort or another in February, with 627 people killed, including 42 members of the Multi-National Force, 213 Iraqi security personnel, and 329 civilians.

Is this a better enemy to civilian kill ratio than the Coalition’s?

Security officials believe that three-quarters of the attacks are carried out by networks loyal to the former Baathist regime, though they do not claim responsibility in their own name. But most of the suicide bomb attacks -including the most deadly ever, at Hilla on 28 February- are the work of the radical Islamic strand of the insurgency, often carried out by non-Iraqi Arab militants.

Unfortunately we aren’t told how many of those 727 insurgent attacks were self-detonating jihadees.

The announcement by the Iraqi authorities -just a day before the Hilla blast- that Saddam Hussein's half-brother Sabawi Ibrahim al-Tikriti had been apprehended by the authorities was hailed as a victory in the battle against the insurgency. His name was on two wanted lists -the US military's "pack of cards" of the 55 figures deemed most culpable for the former regime's crimes, and the list of people wanted for activities connected with the insurgency. The interim Iraqi government said he was operating out of neighbouring Syria, and formally asked Damascus to extradite him and a list of others. Senior officials say he was handed over by the Syrians to American forces on the Syrian-Iraqi border, and he is still in US custody in Iraq.

If this isn't plain evidence of Syrian involvement, you tell me what would it take?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4317103.stm

[Nono]

Quote by: Sonart (...) the gods answered Bush's prayers (...)

As they did in the ninth month of his first term. Lucky dude, eh? :)

[Nono]

Quote by: Gorgo You can't have it both ways. They broke the law. They lied. They are murderers. Nothing exaggerated or untrue about any of it.

Nor is it exaggerated or untrue to call Oedipus a motherfucker. And if it helps remind people of reality, its occasional use is justified. But to keep hammering away with terms like that doesn't advance the debate. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

[bishop]

looks like syria's taking the wise path and withdrawing their troops:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/...ria/index.html

they should also demand that israel withdraw from the territories that it unlawfully occupies as well.. straighten out the whole mess there in one go...

[rmnunez]

Yes, I read of the proposed 2-stage Syrian pullout and thought of the much that has been accomplished under Bush in the ME. In addition to Afghanistan, an erstwhile fundamentalist focal point, with Iraqi intervention the regional balance of power has abruptly shifted. The debacle there has yielded positive changes and Bush has been wise enough to adjust policy en-route. Whereas the original plan envisioned a purely designated by appointment government with all members vetted by the gringoes, Bush was wise enough to see Sistani's opposition would ruin the plan and reached an accomodation for elections. The elections definitely had impact and profoundly across the ME and shortly thereafter Saudi Arabia reciprocrated. In Iran, under awesome EU and gringo pressure to relinquish its nukes, there are rumblings as the perennially shackled opposition sees the wisdom in their Iraqi Shia brethren's approach. Now the Lebanese are daring to express themselves publicly too and thanks to overwhelming presence right there the Syrians are feeling cowed enough to hightail it out after 3 decades of intractability on the issue. Meanwhile the brand-new SoS Rice is slighting even the Egyptians over their political prisoners and the opposition there is also raising its voice.

And they said it was impossible, imagine having a conservative bible-thumping born-again crusader bring democracy at long last to the ME.

[rmnunez]

Flumoxed:

The US and France repeated their insistence on a complete Syrian withdrawal from Lebanon, with Washington saying a speech by Syria's president fell short of meeting the demands set by the UN Security Council. In Washington, a DoS spokesman slammed Syrian President Bashar al-Assad's promise of a redeployment of his troops in Lebanon as insufficient and said his speech to parliament had contained nothing new. "It's clear to us, not just the US, but the international community, that his words are insufficient," spokesman Adam Ereli said in an interview on Alhurra television. "We have not heard the words: 'immediate and full withdrawal'." He insisted Damascus must comply with the demands of UN Resolution 1559 and called on Syria to withdraw from Lebanon and stop influencing the country's politics. "That's what's at the center of the resolution, and we expect the implementation of that resolution. And we did not hear that in Assad's speech," he told Alhurra. A spokesman for UN Secretary General Kofi Annan said Annan would dispatch special envoy Terje Roed-Larsen to the region to press for a Syrian withdrawal. "(Annan) has requested his special envoy, Mr. Terje Roed-Larsen, to travel to Beirut and Damascus this week to discuss with Lebanese and Syrian officials the full, complete and immediate implementation of Security Council resolution 1559," spokesman Fred Eckhard said. In Ottawa, Canadian Foreign Minister Pierre Pettigrew echoed Washington's comments. "Today's announcement by Syria of a redeployment of its troops to the Beka'a Valley and from there to the Syrian-Lebanese border falls short of Syria's obligations and the requirements of the people of Lebanon and the international community," he said in a statement. http://sg.news.yahoo.com/050306/1/3r229.html

How is it that Bush has so alienated traditional allies and friends around the world, yet we find they still support his policies?

[Nono]

Quote by: rmnunez How is it that Bush has so alienated traditional allies and friends around the world, yet we find they still support his policies?

How many policies? One? One and a half?

It's hard to disagree even with the Bushistas about absolutely everything. So big deal. Everybody is glad to see the Syrians out of Lebanon, or somewhat out. But the US no more has the best interests of the Lebanese at heart than it does those of the Iraqis or Afghans. The whole idea here is to get the horn in vis-à-vis the Syrians, that's all.

These same traditional allies and friends would also like to see the Israelis withdraw their settlers from the occupied territories and get serious about reaching some sort of long-term accomodation with the Palestinians. There's a policy -- if it existed -- that they'd also support.

[Gorgo]

If people keep acting as though he wasn't, you'd be the first to point it out, as you just did.

Quote by: Nono Nor is it exaggerated or untrue to call Oedipus a motherfucker. And if it helps remind people of reality, its occasional use is justified. But to keep hammering away with terms like that doesn't advance the debate. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: Gorgo Everyone? I don't know. Did any of them speak out against criminal activities? Did any of them know that the U.S. attacked Iraq? Then are they not conspirators in the crime? Are you doubting that it was a crime to attack Iraq and Afghanistan and Haiti and who knows who else?

Off Topic
Sue those guys, instead of posting. Every single Distric Attorney will take your case.
Prove to all of us, that you are correct.

On Topic
I do not think Syria was set up.
Palestinians - in order to establish its own state - need to sign peace agreement with Israel. That process would create the fundaments for both states and nations to coexist in peaceful manners.

Since Lebanon has become a "safe-house" for Arabic extremiests, it is obvious that both - Palestine and Israel, respectively, would deal with them sooner or later. That is why Syria's militay presence in Lebanon is an obstacle to that whole process.
Otherwise, potential conflicts with Syrian military loom on a horizon, while Lebanon most likely will support Palestininans' efforts to establish its state and/or probably to join them in that process, as well. While dealing with Arabic extremiests is one of the tasks to be handled, yet Syrian military would ad more "fuel" to that.
Such outcome is unacceptable, with potentially unexpected resluts that may cause the Palestine-Israel agrreements to fall short, or non-constructive.

That is why Syria must withdraw from Lebanon, to make the whole peace process - between Palestine and Israel, much easier and fruitful.

[Nono]

Every single Distric Attorney will take your case.

Yeah right. See Ohio election-results challenges.
Taboo means ... taboo.

[rmnunez]

This confrontation with Syria continues to amaze me; first we got the announcement Syria intended to actually withdraw forces (it is surprising since they haven't in decades -despite generalized US-led international calls for their pullout); then we got the pleasant harmonious calls from France, Canada and the UN with the US in unison -demanding action and right away, not words and now (France is not known for echoing gringan perspectives of late, so its odd to see them in synch); now we get the Syrian retraction on the 2-phased pullout they announced before -they'll get to it right away and start on Monday http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4323463.stm It would appear certain advances are derived from gringan deployments in Iraq. The Iranian announcement they’d attack Kuwait and Saudi Arabia as well as other accesible regional oil producers, provides ample justification to broaden the scope of the effort and Syrian compliance confirms this. Something is in the offing and Syria doesn’t want to host the event.

[fushigi]

Quote by: Sonart Then the gods answered Bush's prayers, first with the death of Yassar Arafat, and then the bombing in Beirut.

Honestly, though, as far as a setup, I doubt using Hariri's assassination alone could justify a U.S.-led invasion of Syria to Americans. We need to know that the invasion will make us safer, after all.

For that, we have the standard raft of complaints against Syria: supporting terrorist networks, leaving the border porrous for thousands of Iraq Baathists who continue to wage attacks on Iraq, and allegedly accepting Iraqi WMD.

And when the smoke clears, even if no evidence of WMD - which will be the silver bullet IMO - is found, there will be the stories of changing the Middle East, liberating women from their burqas and political dissidents from torture chambers, setting up schools and teaching Syrians to love freedom.

[rmnunez]

Syria knows enhanced gringan deployments in the area are curtailing their prerogatives in Lebanon, they oversteped trying to assert themselves assasinating Hariri and the gringoes are playing it up. The Euros and UN are making rapprochement noises to see if they can re-engage the process and if things continue nicey-dicey Syria might move as many troops out fast enough to satisfy Bush and pre-empt a primary incentive behind intervention there.

[fushigi]

Quote by: rmnunez Syria knows enhanced gringan deployments in the area are curtailing their prerogatives in Lebanon, they oversteped trying to assert themselves assasinating Hariri and the gringoes are playing it up. The Euros and UN are making rapprochement noises to see if they can re-engage the process and if things continue nicey-dicey Syria might move as many troops out fast enough to satisfy Bush and pre-empt a primary incentive behind intervention there.

I don't think it'd be enough to satisfy Bush. For Israel, it might be enough for Syria to withdraw from Lebanon, since Lebanon is its bargaining chip to convince Israel to give back the Golan Heights. (And yo, check out the map, with the Golan Heights and a free Lebanon, Israel's got the buffer it needs against any Syrian interference.) But for Bush, everything is inextricably linked to the war on terror. If Syria's a state that supports terror - and doesn't support U.S. policy - they need to be invaded.

I think that'd be Ok with Israel too.

[rmnunez]

Cut them some slack, they just turned in one of Saddam's surviving sons-in-law or something, an important leader in the insurgency (despite reiterated assurances from some critical lefties these are not Saddamite Baathists). It would be wonderful if intervention ensued and the Iraqi WMDs were found stored someplace near the throne room in Damascus, but I'd be plenty satisfied if Syria just quietly was allowed to withdraw and the government there a bit more cooperative with the GWOT instead of appearing to continue supporting radical elements among the enemy.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: rmnunez It would be wonderful if intervention ensued and the Iraqi WMDs were found

You continually misuse the term "intervention." What you are referring to is actually invasion and occupation. A military intervention is in the context of a multiparty violent conflict, and the intervening military either seeks to end the violence or takes sides to influence the outcome. As far as I know, there is no conflict within Syria in which to "intervene."

What you politely refer to as intervention is in fact, aggressive war, which is an international crime according to the Nuremburg trials.

I still have difficulty picturing you, a Mexican national, pushing this neocon strategy. This US policy has caused your nation great suffering and a historic loss of territory. It doesn't add up.

[Nono]

I think rummie may be the victim of a hispanicism here, and may be confusing "intervene" with "act", i.e. "invade".

[MerlinsByte]

.…:::::NOTE my reply is directed to all RELIGIOUS SKEPTICS ::::::::quote by RMNUNEZ ” This confrontation with Syria continues to amaze me; first we got the announcement Syria intended to actually withdraw forces (it is surprising since they haven't in decades -despite generalized US-led international calls“.....etc

Israel become an entity in 1947? Or thereabouts. The KJV of the bible predicted this. So it comes as no surprise that Iraq (the old Babylon) was pacified. It won’t surprise me when we take what measures are needed to maintain a extortive strategic presence of control in the middle east. Not for WMDs but for oil.

We (we meaning the USA hereafter) cared nothing for (Iraqi) WMDs, if we did we would of vaporized (The ultimate way to pacify a nation) North Korea ,along with their nuclear capacity long ago.

We care nothing for human rights , mass torture, starvation etc, or we would been in Africa long ago. We do care, and lust for nation stabilizing resources. The middle east has them ,and by god we are there in overwhelming force, if not in truth.

I won't be suprised when a world dictator comes from the middle east, supposedly from the west , or south, (of Israel) but not the east.Nor when Israel is attacked by Gog (Russia), China (china will cross the dried riverbed of the Euphrates.) These will seek to destroy Israel in a combined strike against their Zionist thorn.However, they will be destroyed instead.

To summarize the USA doesn’t just blunder into world changing events, WE CREATE THEM! This should be obvious to anyone that is capable of critical thought.
My post does straddle politics and religious issues, but they are one in the same,in this case, especially when they are of the middle eastern interest.

mb