Good Governance: Which Country Has the Best Government?

[Yarn]

I am looking for statistics, expert surveys of unquantifiable things are accepted, and they can include whatever you value, but with the essential requirement that they cover many countries and not just the US.

I provided just such a source, you haven't.

You say US elections are corrupted by corporate money. That is true, but what comparison do you have regarding that with the rest of the world? My source rated the US high, but not as high as places like Canada, Germany, and Scandenavia.

You claimed we were the most corrupt country in the world. Hence, you would probably have to be showing us how we fare worse than Zimbabwe, Sudan, Chad, Venezuela, and the like.
http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2011/results/

I will concede this: the countries Bush had us occupy are about the world's most corrupt. Though, they weren't that far off from being such in the first place.

[Darklordabc]

I sincerely doubt Brazil's potential to be a first world country, at least at our standards. Unfortunately, the majority of their population is of the lesser intelligent races, with whites only being around 48% of the population. This drags their average IQ down to 87, which makes first world status practically impossible.
Brazil is a reminder of an old adage "You cant have a first world country with a third world population". America is in a similar problem too. If they allow the blacks and Mexicans to keep out-breeding the whites or east-Asians, it will only be a matter of time until it becomes a 2nd rate country.
China on the other-hand has a real chance of overtaking us (the west). But they are a far way off and there is plenty of time to stop that from happening.

[General Zaroff]

I started countering the response to my first post until I read this:

I submit that the US is the most corrupt country in the world.

.......

Yeah, I can see now that there is no point in continuing the discussion.

[Angry Citizen]

I submit that the US is the most corrupt country in the world.

I started to write a detailed response to this thread, but then I saw this little nugget. Barts, no one's going to take you seriously so long as you engage in the most blithering hyperbole imaginable. There's recognizing America's faults, then there's just being anti-American for the sake of being anti-American. It's unproductive and downright ridiculous, and you should be ashamed.

[Yarn]

Amusing. If you're going to invoke history, you'll need to include all history. China was at one time far more advanced the Europe, and it declined. Rome (Italy) once ruled the world. And, today?

Prior to modern times, all countries were third world, including Europe. Ergo, the statement that no first world country has ever become a third world country remains true. That doesn't mean it can't happen, only that it has not yet.

With present technology, it is impossible for all countries to be first world, meaning that not everyone can succeed at the level Europe and America have in the past and do in the present.

Global population is growing, present levels of agricultural intensity are unsustainable, and global temperature is rising. This is going to lead to a food crisis, and one advantage the US has is that it has a lot more food growing capacity than it needs. Even once declining yields are taken into account, we can allegedly carry more than 400 million people. The old Asian countries have bloated populations much closer to limit and are in much greater danger should yields drop.

If the world becomes one of extreme scarcity, everyone will decline. It is imperative that technology outrun our needs, and the bulk of scientific advancement remains in the hands of the first world. We need every bit we can get, but Brazil cannot contribute half as much as we in the US can.

The scientific output of the US is far greater than that of any other country in the world. Depending on which metric you use, we are responsible for somewhere from a third to a half of all of it.
http://www.scimagojr.com/countryrank.php

As for "third world", you may want to reconsider the term. No one with any understanding of developing countries uses that term.

PhDs use that term.

Every major empire declines. The US is no exception. It is deeply in debt to "third world" nations, and is incapable of manufacturing most of the consumer goods it depends on to support its economy.

The UK lost its empire, but it is still a fine place to live. Better than the US in many ways.

[minorwork]

Does the United State's continuing economic decline and increasing disparity between rich and poor mean capitalism is a win?

Societal influence, usurped by the state, results in economic decline? Where is the compelling evidence that mandates I should care that the U.S. is lagging other nations' economies and rich/poor disparities? Then you have to convince that such is detrimental to my family and I. How? By drumming up jealousy and envy convincing a comfortable family that it is in trouble. How do you do that? Propagandist speech dispersed no more than two weeks before an election. You're way too early to expect influencing those in hearing range.

[barts]

Goodness! Such thin skins. It's not uncommon for those who criticize a country's policies to be attacked for being un-[Name of country]. So, because I point out the obvious that the United States is the most corrupt country in the world, I'm labeled un-American. Those who criticize Israeli policies are alternatively (or both) anti-Israel or anti-Semitic. In Canada, those who criticize the way Canada's tar sands are being exploited are labeled anti-Alberta. Such ad hominen attacks are common in the absence of a thoughtful rebuttal.

At any rate, I stand by my assertion that the US is the most corrupt country in the world. It doesn't show up as such in the official lists of corrupt countries, although it is listed as one of the more corrupt among developed countries. The reason is that much of the corruption in the US is legally sanctioned by the corrupted politicians.

Almost all of the major US discretionary budgetary expenses including monies spent on the military, agriculture, medicine, justice system, etc. are decided not by the merits or need or contribution such expenditures make to the common good but rather to serve the interests of those who contribute to the campaign coffers of elected officials. Policies regarding the financial sector, which caused the latest Great Recession, are determined not by prudence and responsibility but by the demands of major campaign contributors. Most recently the US Justice Department announced it was not pursuing criminal charges against anyone at Goldman Sachs. At the same time it was reported that the financial sector had shifted its political donations to the Republicans.

Indeed, even something as innocuous as the government's food guide is determined more by political contributions than nutritional science. This is corruption.

Sure, in the US you can usually get building permit from a local official without paying a bribe, but if you want a contract for a guidance system on a tank or money to pay for cattle feed you better make the appropriate contribution to the necessary federal politicians. If you want to insure that your for-profit prison has sufficient inmates, contributing to the right politicians is necessary.

Only the hopelessly naive or blindly chauvinistic could believe that the US needs a military as large or larger than all other nations' militaries combined. The US military is as large as it is, not for defense, but because of the politically corrupting influence of the "military-industrial complex" that Eisenhower warned about.

The US is the world's largest economy. Most, as I say, discretionary government spending is overtly influenced by political contributions. All the US's policies in key areas like agriculture, drug approval, military expenditures, finance (anywhere there's money to be made) are decided on the basis of political donations. This amounts to far more money that is spent based on corruption than in any other country. Consequently, the US is the most corrupt nation on earth.

Now, you may not consider that the US's perfectly legal "bribing" of elected officials with massive campaign contributions is corruption. I do. I do because as in all corruption money paid to politicians is determining public policy and not what is best for the people whom the politicians are, in theory, supposed to represent. More money is subject to this form of corruption in the US than in any other country. Ipso facto the US is the world's most corrupt nation.

Citations please? Anyone still not aware of the situations I've enumerated above needs to begin reading newspapers and the commentary of the few independent journalists and commentators left in the US.

[barts]

Prior to modern times, all countries were third world, including Europe. Ergo, the statement that no first world country has ever become a third world country remains true. That doesn't mean it can't happen, only that it has not yet.

With present technology, it is impossible for all countries to be first world, meaning that not everyone can succeed at the level Europe and America have in the past and do in the present.

Global population is growing, present levels of agricultural intensity are unsustainable, and global temperature is rising. This is going to lead to a food crisis, and one advantage the US has is that it has a lot more food growing capacity than it needs. Even once declining yields are taken into account, we can allegedly carry more than 400 million people. The old Asian countries have bloated populations much closer to limit and are in much greater danger should yields drop.

If the world becomes one of extreme scarcity, everyone will decline. It is imperative that technology outrun our needs, and the bulk of scientific advancement remains in the hands of the first world. We need every bit we can get, but Brazil cannot contribute half as much as we in the US can.

The scientific output of the US is far greater than that of any other country in the world. Depending on which metric you use, we are responsible for somewhere from a third to a half of all of it.
SJR - International Science Ranking




PhDs use that term.



The UK lost its empire, but it is still a fine place to live. Better than the US in many ways.

It's interesting that in your entire post, not once did you mention good governance, the topic of this thread. Just because a country may produce scientific breakthroughs it doesn't follow that it is matter of good governance.

[barts]

I started to write a detailed response to this thread, but then I saw this little nugget. Barts, no one's going to take you seriously so long as you engage in the most blithering hyperbole imaginable. There's recognizing America's faults, then there's just being anti-American for the sake of being anti-American. It's unproductive and downright ridiculous, and you should be ashamed.

Ashamed? This from someone who condones executing "retards"?

Your post is absent of any content regarding the OP. If you can defend the overt influence of money on politicians and public policy in the US, please do so. And if you explain how the overt influence of monied interests on public policy and politicians is good governance, I'm all ears.

Also, I would welcome being enlightened as to how well the US is improving income equality, economic security of the poor and middle class, public health, eduction, and infrastructure because of its good governance.

[Angry Citizen]

Ashamed? This from someone who condones executing "retards"?

Your post is absent of any content regarding the OP. If you can defend the overt influence of money on politicians and public policy in the US, please do so. And if you explain how the overt influence of monied interests on public policy and politicians is good governance, I'm all ears.

Also, I would welcome being enlightened as to how well the US is improving income equality, economic security of the poor and middle class, public health, eduction, and infrastructure because of its good governance.

I never defended any of these, but as indefensible as those qualities of America are, your statement that America is the most corrupt country in the world - exceeding Mexico, Russia, Belarus, Iran, North Korea, China, Nigeria, Argentina, Brazil, and the Philippines - is even less plausible. Put bluntly, you haven't the foggiest idea what you're talking about. Our politicians and elections may be influenced - INFLUENCED, mind you, not wholly controlled - by money, but at least we have god damned elections, barts. At least we don't ban wikipedia. At least you can sit here and spout this shit without winding up in a gulag. At least we don't lock up punk rock bands for protesting the dear leader. At least our system of governance is not handed down through genetic lineage and bolstered by strategic friendships with people in the military. At least a theocracy doesn't run our ostensibly elected government. At least we don't send people to forced labor encampments for "political reeducation". At least our government is not fighting a losing battle with drug cartels that have turned wide swaths of our territory into lawless zones of anarchy. At least we have effective social welfare programs that are indeed built on the backs of the rich - despite the fact that these programs are meager and in dire need of reform, they do help a great deal of people avoid the worst of society.

No barts. America is not even close to the most corrupt nation on Earth. It's not even the most corrupt nation on this continent. For that, look south to Mexico. Or did you forget the whole rigging elections thing that happened only recently?

[Darklordabc]

At any rate, I stand by my assertion that the US is the most corrupt country in the world.

Well then expect to be marginalized and excluded from serious debates (rightfully so). Anyone who thinks America is more corrupt then North Korea, Zimbabwe and Iraq, does not deserve to be taken seriously.

It doesn't show up as such in the official lists of corrupt countries, although it is listed as one of the more corrupt among developed countries. The reason is that much of the corruption in the US is legally sanctioned by the corrupted politicians.

You seem to think corruption indexing corporations are stupid enough to rate countries by the countries own corrupt laws? As if they will say "Oh Zimbabwa legalizes corruption? Well thats okay then". They go of objective standards, which can not be contravened by the rulers of America or Zimbabwe or any country.

[barts]

I never defended any of these, but as indefensible as those qualities of America are, your statement that America is the most corrupt country in the world - exceeding Mexico, Russia, Belarus, Iran, North Korea, China, Nigeria, Argentina, Brazil, and the Philippines - is even less plausible.

Being the largest economy in the world, the money spent and policies enacted determined by corruption far exceed that of any other country. Ipso facto, the US is the most corrupt.

Put bluntly, you haven't the foggiest idea what you're talking about. Our politicians and elections may be influenced - INFLUENCED, mind you, not wholly controlled - by money, but at least we have god damned elections, barts.

Most US politicians are wholly controlled by money. There are few policies and government expenditures in the US that are not overtly influenced or decided by monied interests. This is a matter of record.

At least we don't ban wikipedia.

US politicians have learned that it's not politically or economically necessary to ban Wikipedia. The media is so controlled by a few major corporations that the few people who actually apprise themselves of the facts are too few to matter.

At least you can sit here and spout this shit without winding up in a gulag. At least we don't lock up punk rock bands for protesting the dear leader.

Because of media concentration, US politicians and corporations know that imprisoning artists isn't necessary. They can merely deprive them access to media. Dixie Chicks.

At least our system of governance is not handed down through genetic lineage and bolstered by strategic friendships with people in the military.

Really? And, George Bush is what?

At least a theocracy doesn't run our ostensibly elected government.

The US is overtly influenced by religious interests not only in government but also the military.

At least we don't send people to forced labor encampments for "political reeducation".

Really? Most of the prisoners at Guantanamo were guilty of nothing more than being in the wrong place. The US also has a for-profit prison industry, the purpose of which to enrich private corporations. At least other countries imprison people for their political beliefs. In the US it's done to extract money from tax payers.

As well, the US Justice system is now, in fact, based on the notion of "guilty until proven innocent".

At least our government is not fighting a losing battle with drug cartels that have turned wide swaths of our territory into lawless zones of anarchy.

The battle against the drug cartels is due to the US's War on Drugs which is rife with corruption. Wide swaths of US cities are lawless zones of anarchy.

At least we have effective social welfare programs that are indeed built on the backs of the rich - despite the fact that these programs are meager and in dire need of reform, they do help a great deal of people avoid the worst of society.

Economic mobility and inequality are both worsening in the US and improving in places like Brazil.

No barts. America is not even close to the most corrupt nation on Earth. It's not even the most corrupt nation on this continent. For that, look south to Mexico. Or did you forget the whole rigging elections thing that happened only recently?

Based on dollars and people involved, the US is by far the most corrupt nation in the world. There's no level of the US government, state governments, and the judicial system that are not corrupt. Moreover, the US's political system is so corrupt--thanks to campaign finance, voter suppression, and gerrymandering--that it is incapable of ending the corruption. Things can only get worse for most Americans.

Goodness! I'm at loss to figure out where you're getting your information and ideas. Moreover, all aspects in the US that would reduce corruption are worsening, while in many other countries they are improving.