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Thread: India and pakistan.

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    Amateur stripper Charlatan's Avatar
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    India and pakistan.

    I saw this cold war while skimming through ibskins for president, and thought it deserved more attention.

    The way these two countries regaurd each other is not what you might call a war where leaders would nuke each other or anything. They would more likely fight a small scale war, as there is not really anything to be gained. There is nothing to be gained as the un would not recognise land grabs by either side, and all that is left is tension between leaders.

    If they were allowed to expand thier borders, then there might be a case for a financially stimulating war. What they have is more a war of religion - one like between a family. They will not be bringing islam to india as they already have this, so, they would likely be forcing the indians into worship. This could be like a crusade of sorts...

    I suggest street artists get together and paint the walls of buildings with pro islamic and pro hindu symbolism. This will make them see that india has also got a vestment in the islam that is a part of thier daily lives anyway. Otherwise, maybe they sign a treaty of friendship, have a holiday, and have thier leaders meet. I am sure what you call the asian leaders body would like to see these two be friends? This means they should pump the media full of peaceful slogans and have the media interview the leaders next to each other.

    If the leaders were in close proximity to each other, then they would relax - it is the high walls that make them so edgy. If they were to have a cultural cross over, from the leadership down to the people, then everyone would relax and remember that everyone is different and it is working.

    !! Going to my destruction !!

  2. #2
    An Analyst& A Gadfly Yarn's Avatar
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    Gandi was assasinated by a fundamentalist Hindu for adovcating peace. The reason why Pakistan and India split up in the first place was because the Hindu and Muslim masses hated eachother so much that they were genociding eachother all over the country. An estimated several hundred thousand to a million people were slaughtered in this barbaric fued.

    They had small scale wars every now and then over a pittance of land that still constitutes the greatest concrete focal point of their mutual antagonism.

    Besides that, there is the case of the Pakistani army. The army is heavily involved in Pakistani politics, such that Pakistan is not entirely democratic. The army periodically overthrows the democratic government of Pakistan and then later allows it to come back. Thd army enjoys enormous funding given Pakistan's size and wealth, and as a result much of the rest of the civil system is pitiful. Per instance, the education system is a complete mess. There is 1 teacher to 50-100 students, they don't have enough books to go around, and often they don't even have school buildings.

    What does this have to do with the India-Pakistan conflict?

    The Pakistani army justifies its massive parasitic nature on the basis of the Indian threat. In Pakistan, politicians who promote peace are opposed by the army because peace threatens the army's budget. So such politicians rarely get much power.

    Pakistan and India are way overpopulated. They are plagued by religous extremism and territorial innanity. Their economies are ravaged by short sighted protectionism that crippled India so much that its economy was outperformed by Maoist China's back in the day, and while China rockets ahead now India is left coughing in the dust. Speaking of Maoism, India is in the middle of a civil war with Maoists, and these rebels comprise more than 70,000 men focused in the rural areas of the East actively seeking to overthrow India's democracy. Frequently, they de facto control Indian territory. Their revolutionary brethren in Nepal recently overthrew the Nepalese government.

    Meanwhile, Northern India and Pakistan are wholly dependent on the flow of the Indus, Ganges, and Brahmaputra rivers to feed their ever growing bloated populations. Therefore, they are extremely vulnerable to global warming because those rivers rely on glacial meltwater for summer flow. If the glaciers melt away too rapidly, they will dissappear altogether. At that point we may be looking at hundreds of millions Pakistanis and Indians starving to death and possibly nuking eachother in a war fought over shared portions of the water supply...the whole subcontinent is a damn time bomb.

    IF there is to be peace, then it will have to center around a mutually agreed demarcation of the border. India and Pakistan will have to sign a treaty denoting who formally gets what. Kashmir is split in 2. Pakistan holds part of it, India holds part of it, both claim all of it. Amusingly enough, China claims it as well but controls only a small portion of it. The Kashmiris themselves want to be part of Pakistan, but India thinks it deserves Kashmir for some reason, and will not allow the territory to decide for itself what country it wants to be a part of. Bangladesh, formely known as East Pakistan, doesn't have this gadfly. So relations between India and Bangladesh are much better than those between India and Pakistan.

    As far as I can tell, Pakistan and India aren't interested in making any sort of compromise agreement over Kashmir, and, until they agree to, I don't see how they can achieve a lasting peace.

    Now they both have nuclear weapons, so any war between them that escalated would kill tens of millions directly via explosion, and would possibly threaten a billion lives globallly due to the resulting nuclear winter. They are building more and more nukes. In fact, US money is helping spur this on. In an attempt to bribe Pakistan into helping us defeat Al Qaeda and the Taliban, we are giving the Pakistan military lots of money. This helps enable it to increase its nuclear arsenal. The nuclear arsenals are not static, they are getting bigger and bigger, meaning the death toll that would result from a true war is getting ever higher.

    "The day we stop exploring is the day we commit ourselves to live in a stagnant world, devoid of curiosity, empty of dreams."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FMNFvKEy4c

  3. #3
    blasphemer grandpa's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Yarn View Post
    Gandi was assasinated by a fundamentalist Hindu for adovcating peace.
    The reason why Pakistan and India split up in the
    first place was because the Hindu and Muslim masses hated
    eachother so much that they were genociding eachother all over
    the country.
    Events like this probably have something to do with it:
    "Operation Blue Star - 1984.
    The 6 Jun, army operation on the holiest shrine
    of Sikh religion - Amritsar’s Golden temple, on the orders of then Prime
    Minister Mrs Indra Gandhi, highly annoyed the Sikh community. To them it was
    beyond belief that the Golden Temple - the very symbol of their faith, could
    be desecrated by the armed forces of a free and the so called secular India."
    Resurrection of Hindu Fundamentalism

    Grandpa h.

    Post by post, building his arguments by smashing a couple of theirs -- for America.

  4. #4
    Intellectual truthreality's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Yarn View Post
    Gandi was assasinated by a fundamentalist Hindu for adovcating peace.
    Key word: fundamentalist. Nathuram Ghodse assassinated Gandhi because he was unhappy with the way Gandhi dealt with the Pakistan-India conflict and believe Gandhi was responsible for the deaths of many Hindu lives.

    Quote Quote by: Yarn View Post
    The reason why Pakistan and India split up in the first place was because the Hindu and Muslim masses hated eachother so much that they were genociding eachother all over the country.
    Let's see. India has the third larges Muslim population (138 million) which is almost the size of Pakistan's entire population and the Muslim population in Pakistan compromises 13% of the population. The three most popular movie stars in India are Muslim. Some of the most popular and influential actors and actresses in Mumbai-based Bollywood are Muslims. India is home to numerous Muslim institutes. According to the Indian Express Zakir Naik, one of the most prominent Muslim apologists, is one of the most influential spiritual leaders in India. Muslim businessmen and politicians have enjoyed success in India. On the other hand a Hindu can't even walk the streets of Pakistan safely without fear of having his balls chopped off. Sounds to me like the problem is Pakistan not India.

    The reason why India and Pakistan split is because Muslims in that state wanted their own country. India fought for the independence of Bangladesh (another muslim country) so your absurd assertion that the cause of the split between India and Pakistan is absurd. Muslims enjoy freedom in India. Hindus in Pakistan...not so much.

    Quote Quote by: Yarn View Post
    An estimated several hundred thousand to a million people were slaughtered in this barbaric fued.
    -Citations needed. Even if that was true the numbers you have given are laughable compared to casualties by other barbaric fueds (wars).

    Quote Quote by: Yarn View Post
    They had small scale wars every now and then over a pittance of land that still constitutes the greatest concrete focal point of their mutual antagonism.
    The United States does not want to share its land with people who are natives to the continent and existed before their founding fathers came and you have an issue with a terrorist nation that seeks to steal land from another country?

    Quote Quote by: Yarn View Post
    They are plagued by religous extremism and territorial innanity.
    India plagued by religious extremism? Bullshit. India has one of the most diverse populations when it comes to religion and is the birthplace for four of the world's major religions and includes large populations of both Christians and Muslims.

    Their economies are ravaged by short sighted protectionism that crippled India so much that its economy was outperformed by Maoist China's back in the day, and while China rockets ahead now India is left coughing in the dust. Speaking of Maoism, India is in the middle of a civil war with Maoists, and these rebels comprise more than 70,000 men focused in the rural areas of the East actively seeking to overthrow India's democracy. Frequently, they de facto control Indian territory. Their revolutionary brethren in Nepal recently overthrew the Nepalese government.

    Meanwhile, Northern India and Pakistan are wholly dependent on the flow of the Indus, Ganges, and Brahmaputra rivers to feed their ever growing bloated populations. Therefore, they are extremely vulnerable to global warming because those rivers rely on glacial meltwater for summer flow. If the glaciers melt away too rapidly, they will dissappear altogether. At that point we may be looking at hundreds of millions Pakistanis and Indians starving to death and possibly nuking eachother in a war fought over shared portions of the water supply...the whole subcontinent is a damn time bomb.

    Quote Quote by: Yarn View Post
    The Kashmiris themselves want to be part of Pakistan, but India thinks it deserves Kashmir for some reason, and will not allow the territory to decide for itself what country it wants to be a part of.
    This makes no sense. Two of the three areas of Kashmir controlled by India are Buddhist and Hindu majority.


  5. #5
    Intellectual truthreality's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: grandpa View Post
    Events like this probably have something to do with it:
    "Operation Blue Star - 1984.
    The 6 Jun, army operation on the holiest shrine
    of Sikh religion - Amritsar’s Golden temple, on the orders of then Prime
    Minister Mrs Indra Gandhi, highly annoyed the Sikh community. To them it was
    beyond belief that the Golden Temple - the very symbol of their faith, could
    be desecrated by the armed forces of a free and the so called secular India."
    Resurrection of Hindu Fundamentalism

    Grandpa h.
    You are citing the army operation against the Sikh temple in 1984 as the current reason why there is a conflict between Pakistan and India? Seriously? Did you know that the current Prime Minister of India is a Sikh? Yeh that's right. Your post is irrelevant to this discussion and is a red herring.

    Edit: Of course the conflict in India has nothing to do with the British invasion and conquering of India.


  6. #6
    An Analyst& A Gadfly Yarn's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: truthreality View Post
    Key word: fundamentalist. Nathuram Ghodse assassinated Gandhi because he was unhappy with the way Gandhi dealt with the Pakistan-India conflict and believe Gandhi was responsible for the deaths of many Hindu lives.
    Alright, he was a Hindu Nationalist.

    Let's see. India has the third larges Muslim population (138 million) which is almost the size of Pakistan's entire population and the Muslim population in Pakistan compromises 13% of the population. The three most popular movie stars in India are Muslim. Some of the most popular and influential actors and actresses in Mumbai-based Bollywood are Muslims. India is home to numerous Muslim institutes. According to the Indian Express Zakir Naik, one of the most prominent Muslim apologists, is one of the most influential spiritual leaders in India. Muslim businessmen and politicians have enjoyed success in India. On the other hand a Hindu can't even walk the streets of Pakistan safely without fear of having his balls chopped off. Sounds to me like the problem is Pakistan not India.
    I agree that Pakistan is more to blame than India is. However, India pursued nuclear weapons first. And India retains hegemony over much of the Kashmir valley against the will of most Kashmiris.

    The United States does not want to share its land with people who are natives to the continent and existed before their founding fathers came and you have an issue with a terrorist nation that seeks to steal land from another country?
    As I have said, the world belongs to the living. Native Americans are a small minority. Muslims make up 95% of the inhabitants of the Kashmari valley today.


    India plagued by religious extremism? Bullshit. India has one of the most diverse populations when it comes to religion and is the birthplace for four of the world's major religions and includes large populations of both Christians and Muslims.
    I would hazard to guess Pakistan is worse, but India has its outbreaks.
    Religious violence in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "The day we stop exploring is the day we commit ourselves to live in a stagnant world, devoid of curiosity, empty of dreams."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FMNFvKEy4c

  7. #7
    Intellectual truthreality's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Yarn View Post
    Alright, he was a Hindu Nationalist.
    Yes. The guy was an extremist. Gandhi was a Hindu and his non-violent movement was inspired from Hinduism.

    Quote Quote by: Yarn View Post
    I agree that Pakistan is more to blame than India is. However, India pursued nuclear weapons first. And India retains hegemony over much of the Kashmir valley against the will of most Kashmiris.
    So what if India pursued nuclear weapons? They have never been a threat to other countires. They have as much right to nuclear weapons as the United States of America or Russia or China. Most Kashmiris? No most Muslims. Muslims have a fetish for invading land and then stealing the land. No one is preventing Kashmiri Muslims from meshing with India (a religiously tolerant and plularist nation). As usual we have a case where Muslims want to isolate themselves from other cultures and claim land to them. Pakistan is completely to blame for the conflict between India and Pakistan. They got what they wanted and now they want more then they deserve.

    Quote Quote by: Yarn View Post
    As I have said, the world belongs to the living. Native Americans are a small minority. Muslims make up 95% of the inhabitants of the Kashmari valley today.
    Yes the world belongs to the living. The world does not belong to Islam despite their facist mentality that they have exclusive right to the world because Allah created it.



    Quote Quote by: Yarn View Post
    I would hazard to guess Pakistan is worse, but India has its outbreaks.
    Religious violence in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    You would hazard to guess? Hazard to guess? There is no competition at all. Period. End of discussion. India is a religiously tolerant secular plualirst nation and Pakistan is Islamic theocratic terrorist nation. Anyone who would even try to put India in the same category as Pakistan in terms of religious tolerance must be massively ignorant. The link you posted means absolutely nothing. India may have outbreaks here and there because of the deep religous and cultural diversity but Pakistan is chronically infested.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_pakistan

    India is the birthplace of four of the world's major religious traditions; namely Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism.

    Throughout its history, religion has been an important part of the country's culture. Religious diversity and religious tolerance are both established in the country by law and custom. A vast majority of Indians associate themselves with a religion.

    According to the 2001 census,[1] Hinduism accounted for 80.5% of the population of India. Islam (13.4%), Christianity (2.3%), Sikhism (1.9%), Buddhism (0.8%) and Jainism (0.4%) are the other major religions followed by the people of India. This diversity of religious belief systems existing in India today is a result of, besides existence and birth of native religions, assimilation and social integration of religions brought to the region by traders, travelers, immigrants, and even invaders and conquerors.

    Zoroastrianism and Judaism also have an ancient history in India and each has several thousand Indian adherents. India has the largest population of people adhering to Zoroastrianism and Bahá'í Faith anywhere in the world. [2] [3] Many other world religions also have a relationship with Indian spirituality, like the Baha'i faith which recognizes Lord Buddha and Lord Krishna as manifestations of God Almighty.[citation needed]

    Indian diaspora in the West have popularized many aspects of Hindu philosophy like yoga (meditation), Ayurvedic medicine, divination, karma and reincarnation to a great extent.[4] The influence of Indians abroad in spiritual matters has been significant as several organizations such as the Hare Krishna movement, the Brahma Kumaris, the Ananda Marga and others spread by Indian spiritual figures.

    The Muslim population in India is the third largest in the world. The shrines of some of the most famous saints of Sufism like Moinuddin Chishti and Nizamuddin Auliya are in India and attract visitors from all over the world.[5] India is also home to some of the most famous monuments of Islamic architecture like the Taj Mahal and the Qutb Minar. Civil matters related to the community are dealt with by the Muslim Personal Law, and constitutional amendments in 1985 established its primacy in family matters.[6]

    The Constitution of India declares the nation to be a secular republic that must uphold the right of citizens to freely worship and propagate any religion or faith (with activities subject to reasonable restrictions for the sake of morality, law and order, etc.).[7][8] The Constitution of India also declares the right to freedom of religion as a fundamental right.

    Citizens of India are generally tolerant of each other's religions and retain a secular outlook, although inter-religious marriage is not widely practiced. Inter-community clashes have found little support in the social mainstream, and it is generally perceived that the causes of religious conflicts are political rather than ideological in nature.[9]

    Religion in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


  8. #8
    Amateur stripper Charlatan's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Yarn View Post
    Gandi was assasinated by a fundamentalist Hindu for adovcating peace. The reason why Pakistan and India split up in the first place was because the Hindu and Muslim masses hated eachother so much that they were genociding eachother all over the country. An estimated several hundred thousand to a million people were slaughtered in this barbaric fued.

    They had small scale wars every now and then over a pittance of land that still constitutes the greatest concrete focal point of their mutual antagonism.

    Besides that, there is the case of the Pakistani army. The army is heavily involved in Pakistani politics, such that Pakistan is not entirely democratic. The army periodically overthrows the democratic government of Pakistan and then later allows it to come back. Thd army enjoys enormous funding given Pakistan's size and wealth, and as a result much of the rest of the civil system is pitiful. Per instance, the education system is a complete mess. There is 1 teacher to 50-100 students, they don't have enough books to go around, and often they don't even have school buildings.

    What does this have to do with the India-Pakistan conflict?

    The Pakistani army justifies its massive parasitic nature on the basis of the Indian threat. In Pakistan, politicians who promote peace are opposed by the army because peace threatens the army's budget. So such politicians rarely get much power.

    Pakistan and India are way overpopulated. They are plagued by religous extremism and territorial innanity. Their economies are ravaged by short sighted protectionism that crippled India so much that its economy was outperformed by Maoist China's back in the day, and while China rockets ahead now India is left coughing in the dust. Speaking of Maoism, India is in the middle of a civil war with Maoists, and these rebels comprise more than 70,000 men focused in the rural areas of the East actively seeking to overthrow India's democracy. Frequently, they de facto control Indian territory. Their revolutionary brethren in Nepal recently overthrew the Nepalese government.

    Meanwhile, Northern India and Pakistan are wholly dependent on the flow of the Indus, Ganges, and Brahmaputra rivers to feed their ever growing bloated populations. Therefore, they are extremely vulnerable to global warming because those rivers rely on glacial meltwater for summer flow. If the glaciers melt away too rapidly, they will dissappear altogether. At that point we may be looking at hundreds of millions Pakistanis and Indians starving to death and possibly nuking eachother in a war fought over shared portions of the water supply...the whole subcontinent is a damn time bomb.

    IF there is to be peace, then it will have to center around a mutually agreed demarcation of the border. India and Pakistan will have to sign a treaty denoting who formally gets what. Kashmir is split in 2. Pakistan holds part of it, India holds part of it, both claim all of it. Amusingly enough, China claims it as well but controls only a small portion of it. The Kashmiris themselves want to be part of Pakistan, but India thinks it deserves Kashmir for some reason, and will not allow the territory to decide for itself what country it wants to be a part of. Bangladesh, formely known as East Pakistan, doesn't have this gadfly. So relations between India and Bangladesh are much better than those between India and Pakistan.

    As far as I can tell, Pakistan and India aren't interested in making any sort of compromise agreement over Kashmir, and, until they agree to, I don't see how they can achieve a lasting peace.

    Now they both have nuclear weapons, so any war between them that escalated would kill tens of millions directly via explosion, and would possibly threaten a billion lives globallly due to the resulting nuclear winter. They are building more and more nukes. In fact, US money is helping spur this on. In an attempt to bribe Pakistan into helping us defeat Al Qaeda and the Taliban, we are giving the Pakistan military lots of money. This helps enable it to increase its nuclear arsenal. The nuclear arsenals are not static, they are getting bigger and bigger, meaning the death toll that would result from a true war is getting ever higher.
    The best way to deal with this threat is for the government of pakistan to cut military spending. When the military revolts, to get back in control, the people should stop paying taxes, all of them, all together. Then the military will commit human rights violations, and the west will come in and fight them. This will be a short war.

    !! Going to my destruction !!

  9. #9
    blasphemer grandpa's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: truthreality View Post
    You are citing the army operation against the Sikh temple
    in 1984 as the current reason why there is a
    conflict between Pakistan and India?
    It could be construed as an act of "domestic terrorism" by the government against its people. I never said it was "the current reason," as if there would be only one reason, or one demand. It has something to do with the history of the region.

    And, sure enough, it was apparently somewhat impactful:
    "Four months after the operation, on 31 October 1984, Indira Gandhi was assassinated by two of her Sikh bodyguards in what is viewed as an act of vengeance. Following her assassination, more than 5000 Sikhs were killed in anti-Sikh pogroms.[14] Within the Sikh community itself, Operation Blue Star has taken on considerable historical significance and is often compared to what Sikhs call 'the great massacre' by the Afghan invader Ahmad Shah Durrani, the Sikh holocaust of 1762."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Blue_Star

    Grandpa h.

    Post by post, building his arguments by smashing a couple of theirs -- for America.

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    blasphemer grandpa's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Charlatan View Post
    The best way to deal with this threat is for
    the government of pakistan to cut military spending.
    When the military revolts, to get back in control, the
    people should stop paying taxes, all of them, all together.
    The India/Pakistan situation is probably not amenable to short cut, or whatever your prescribed adventures would be called.

    Grandpa h.

    Post by post, building his arguments by smashing a couple of theirs -- for America.

  11. #11
    Amateur stripper Charlatan's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: grandpa View Post
    The India/Pakistan situation is probably not amenable to short cut, or whatever your prescribed adventures would be called.

    Grandpa h.
    Well, what will india do to protect itself from pakistan? They want to gobble up the land of india, which isn't really worth much is it? This is what happens when leaders come to power that want more to feel powerful about. Targetting them as individuals is paramount to getting rid of the problem.

    How do you get a leader away from the place of power that they love so much? I have offered hacking their personal bank accounts, and even threatening them with scandals, but maybe those won't work...

    So, to get rid of the military presence in pakistan, they need to work with the indians. If the state of india was to declare war on pakistan, all the troops will be moved to the border, then the police can walk in and arrest the military leaders before actual war breaks out? How's that plan?

    !! Going to my destruction !!

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    blasphemer grandpa's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Charlatan View Post
    Well, what will india do to protect itself from pakistan?
    They want to gobble up the land of india, which
    isn't really worth much is it?
    Mainstream media only teaches 2 things about Pakistan: It spreads terror and it fights terror. It is bizarrely silent on the situation between India and Pakistan. I do see a possibility for wars, AKA mass murders, and it's much a source of confusion for any plans.

    Grandpa h.

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