Whats The Deal With Michael Moore?

[RebelWithanAK]

You mean Johnson's War on Poverty? That did us a shitload of good, so I don't know what you're talking about.

And in Cuba at least I can get a freakin' doctor.

[FreedomFirst]

You can keep your Cuban doctor. I'd rather have a free market than year long waiting lists for life saving surgeries any day of the week.

Here's a great series of articles on the evils of fascist medicine:
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman/issue...socialized.html


</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,)
You mean Johnson's War on Poverty? That did us a shitload of good, so I don't know what you're talking about.

And in Cuba at least I can get a freakin' doctor.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

[RebelWithanAK]

*rolls eyes*

If you don't know the difference between Fascism and Socialism (and more importantly, don't know that Angelfire isn't a decent source to be pulling material), then you obviously don't understand enough to continue this argument. Sorry!

[FreedomFirst]

Don't jump to conclusions. Fascism and socialism have more in common than you'd like to admit. Both involve central governmental control of the people. Socialists don't paint it that way, but that's how it always has been.

With regards to angelfire, the page links to article off the angelfire site. But hey, you're welcome to criticize angelfire all you like...it beats actually addressing the issue!

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,)
*rolls eyes*

If you don't know the difference between Fascism and Socialism (and more importantly, don't know that Angelfire isn't a decent source to be pulling material), then you obviously don't understand enough to continue this argument. Sorry!<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

[RebelWithanAK]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (FreedomFirst)
Don't jump to conclusions.  Fascism and socialism have more in common than you'd like to admit.  Both involve central governmental control of the people.  Socialists don't paint it that way, but that's how it always has been.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>Gee, is that all you got? Really? Centralized government? Well, slap my ass and call me Shirley: You've just described every government ever in all of human history! Bravo! Next, you're going to tell me they both support formal militaries, have state departments, and breath air! Hee hee!</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (FreedomFirst)
With regards to angelfire, the page links to article off the angelfire site.  But hey, you're welcome to criticize angelfire all you like...it beats actually addressing the issue!<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>Are we talking about the same Angelfire site, here? You mean the one with all the links to columnists and editorials? Are you really gonna let that speak for you? I mean, anybody who just links to a bunch of sources like FreeMarket.net, Self-gov.org, and FEE.org simply MUST be an unbiased, objective observer, deserving of my respect and rapt attention! You couldn't find a better source? I mean, there's nothing wrong with a whole lotta articles from raving Libertarians, but why can't you find a link to an organization that didn't already have their results in mind before they actually started looking for evidence?

[FreedomFirst]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,)
Gee, is that all you got? Really? Centralized government? Well, slap my ass and call me Shirley: You've just described every government ever in all of human history! Bravo! Next, you're going to tell me they both support formal militaries, have state departments, and breath air! Hee hee!<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>
Actually it's not all I got, but its a good starting point. Centralized governments come in varying degrees, but both fascism and communism take it to the extreme - for instance both involve direct and absolute control of the economy by the government.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,)
Are we talking about the same Angelfire site, here? You mean the one with all the links to columnists and editorials? Are you really gonna let that speak for you? I mean, anybody who just links to a bunch of sources like FreeMarket.net, Self-gov.org, and FEE.org simply MUST be an unbiased, objective observer, deserving of my respect and rapt attention! You couldn't find a better source? I mean, there's nothing wrong with a whole lotta articles from raving Libertarians, but why can't you find a link to an organization that didn't already have their results in mind before they actually started looking for evidence?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Actually, I form my opinion based on the evidence, as do most folks.

[sguy]

Mike Moore's solution to the problems in Northern Ireland is that every Protestant should become Catholic.

Moore is a person who uses half truths and portrays them as completely true, manipulating those who read his books. He distorts what really happens and the decisions and does so for the purpose that people will agree with him. If someone wants to read his books, do not do so believing that this is about actual politics. Read it with a light-heart because if you take it seriously, then you will explode with annoyance and anger.

[Red_Emma]

Your obviously ignorant to make Socialism and Facism sound so close alike...You talk of Centralized government as it is a bad thing..you must accept it..some will rise to the top it always happen and they will always be power hungry..but the control of it is what is in the peoples hands...I wish you would realize there is diversity and everyone isnt a rich, white, upper-middle to upper class citizen who can actually utilize this monopolized economy that is controlled by a handful of conservative capitalist..oops i mean participate in this *free market* ...Cuba wasnt the best country to compare the US too..and probaly not many communist countries are a good source for comparison to show how much better they are than the US but Socialism is something that in its true form is actually benefitting and I can honestly say I think it would be beneficial to a majority of countries out there..some capitalist some communist...

[m5lange1]

Michael Moore is Rush Limbaugh with a different medium and on a different side. They actually have much more in common with each other than they do with their fellow liberal/conservatives.

[Palindrome]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (PatC,)
First off, I have'nt read any of his books, i check out his website about 2-3 times a week. From this at least, why Michale Moore seem to think hes smarter than everyone else? He consistently criticizes the government and Bush and does not give him credit on anything and points out his faults in leadership. I have yet to hear Michael Moore offer any sort of solution or alternative to the war in Iraq or other issues besides "Bush f*cked up". Is he capable of forming an inteligent and rational opinion? He states facts about Iraq supporting his own anti-war view that often contradict with the work of others (such as Kenneth Pollack). If you have read either of his books let me know what you think, hopefully im wrong<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Like many of us flawed human beings, Michael Moore is self-delusion. His case is worse than the average one, though.

[FreedomFirst]

You talk about government as though it is not an institution prone to even greater greed than the free market ever could be. Government's more dangerous than a corporation because government has the power to make you do things. As bad as Disney may be, it can't make you watch Lilo and Stitch. Government can. You talk about a free market like an ignorant person (e.g. the belief that a monopoly is possible when government isn't propping up big business). Socialism and fascism are exactly alike, because you're ignoring that in order to make socialism work you require FORCE, down the barrel of a gun if necessary, to keep the people in line. Oh wait, I'm sorry, the government is "the people". Yeah right. Like that idea ever works once its put into practice. It doesn't even work here, and we have one of the best democratic electoral systems.

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Red_Emma,)
Your obviously ignorant to make Socialism and Facism sound so close alike...You talk of Centralized government as it is a bad thing..you must accept it..some will rise to the top it always happen and they will always be power hungry..but the control of it is what is in the peoples hands...I wish you would realize there is diversity and everyone isnt a rich, white, upper-middle to upper class citizen who can actually utilize this monopolized economy that is controlled by a handful of conservative capitalist..oops i mean participate in this *free market* ...Cuba wasnt the best country to compare the US too..and probaly not many communist countries are a good source for comparison to show how much better they are than the US but Socialism is something that in its true form is actually benefitting and I can honestly say I think it would be beneficial to a majority of countries out there..some capitalist some communist...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

[dotcoma]

Mike Moore is a good guy. Unfortunately he misses the boat on most issues. Bowling for Columbine was entertaining but scary as it merely fulfills an agenda of having a global, unarmed populace. He needs to get with it and fast. His endorsement of Wesley Clark was laughable...

[bmaestro]

</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (FreedomFirst,)
You talk about government as though it is not an institution prone to even greater greed than the free market ever could be. Government's more dangerous than a corporation because government has the power to make you do things. As bad as Disney may be, it can't make you watch Lilo and Stitch. Government can. You talk about a free market like an ignorant person (e.g. the belief that a monopoly is possible when government isn't propping up big business). Socialism and fascism are exactly alike, because you're ignoring that in order to make socialism work you require FORCE, down the barrel of a gun if necessary, to keep the people in line. Oh wait, I'm sorry, the government is "the people". Yeah right. Like that idea ever works once its put into practice. It doesn't even work here, and we have one of the best democratic electoral systems.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'>

Do you really have to force people at gunpoint to take better education, and say, free college? Will people only submit to force when it comes to universal healthcare? The foundations of socialism, basically providing for the society by means of the government are in no way faciest, if they're executed in an egalitarian way. I'm a fan of free market economies as well, and i think that the market for consumer goods and services should generally opporate in a free market, which means that you can't take the entire income away from people to provide everything for them. I'm just saying that if you tax more, say like sweeden, and provide more social services, you can have a sort of dual society: both government provided and free market economy (with a free market for jobs). It works sometimes, just not to the extreme of say, cuba.

The effect of becoming more socialist is essentially narrowing the income gap. It allows the poor to have access to good healthcare and education and other social services, paid for, for the most part by the rich, through taxes.
A country can be socialist without being fanatically socialist. They can acheive better social welfare without forcing it at gunpoint.

[FreedomFirst]

The problem with your line of thinking is that government does not do a good job of providing services. Our current welfare system provides a disincentive to work. Our current socialized economy inflates prices and causes unemployment. Government schools are nothing more than indoctrination warehouses. Medicare and overregulated medicine drive up the price of healthcare and leave more people in trouble than a free market system would.

In order for a government to provide programs for the people it requires force in the form of income taxation to fund said programs - if you refuse to pay, this force can very easily come down the barrel of a gun. We can switch to a FairTax (www.fairtax.org), which would be a good first step, but it is still lacking overall, because the government oversteps its bounds when it seeks to provide for us. Guarantee destroys opportunity. Safety nets ensnare. We were doing a heck of a lot better before government decided to get involved in creating safety nets to trap the people.

Forcing the rich (or anyone) to pay to help another person is not the way to a prosperous society. Civilization is only achieved when we help one another voluntarily, not because we'll go to jail if we evade our tax. Imagine the earnings potential if we ended the income tax, so that every family took home their gross pay. Imagine how much the poor would profit if we ended restrictions to employment and deregulated a variety of industries. Imagine how much safer poor communities would be if we ended drug prohibition. The solution is not government control, but rather a voluntary society and individual liberty. This voluntarism is the root of true socialism.

[castille]

If you force the rich to pay for the poor, you'll only say to the poor, "Don't bother working, you can live off the rich people".

[AnonT]

Ok, so this thread is about Michael Moore:
In Bowling for Columbine, he tries to portray Charleton Heston as being a racist, and to portray the NRA as racist. He pulls quotes from Heston out of context, he says that the NRA was founded in the same year as the KKK, and he has some dumb cartoon showing an NRA member helping a racist terrorize minorities.

A: Heston is not a racist. Heston was marching with Martin Luther King Junior, picketing segregated businesses, and fighting for civil rights while Michael Moore was in diapers. One of the quotes Moore pulls is of Heston saying something like there's more violence in the US partly because we're so racially diverse. Moore makes it sound like he's a racist; what he's actually saying is that racism causes violence, and we have to try to overcome racism so we can make a racially diverse culture work.

B: The KKK was founded a few years before the NRA. Admittedly, it was recognized as a criminal organization in the same year as the NRA - but the NRA was founded by former Union soldiers (you know, the guys who fought to free the slaves?) and blacks who feared that groups like the KKK might threated racial equality. The NRA was formed partly as a defense against the KKK and other hate groups. This can also be seen partly by the fact that, during the Jim Crow era, many blacks joined the NRA or founded their own chapters to make it easier for them to acquire guns in order to defend themselves from hate groups.

C: Considering the above, the cartoon was totally unfounded. How his "mockumentary" got an academy award, I don't know; possibly liberal bias among hollywood types.

[terstorm]

Micheal Moore is the "left's" eqivialent of Ann Coulter. Lots of hot air and not a lot of facts.

(apparently ann's hot, but if you find anorexicly thin and vicious women hot, go for it.)