The Kyoto Treaty enforced

[bishop]

for what it's worth, many states here are enacting clean air policies of their own. they didn't get leadership by bush (who is in bed with the oil industry), so they've decided to work on it themselves.

arnold in california is sticking to the policy enacted by grey davis.. mccain is set to reintroduce fuel efficiency legislation that has failed in the past. supposedly, there are a couple people in the GOP who were once completely against the notion who are now on the verge of converting.

i think the gist of kyoto is pretty popular here. from all i've seen, americans think that alternative energies are something we should actively pursue as we also aim to lower our dependence on oil. if the leadership can't materialize from the top because of conflicts of interest, then it will come from somewhere else.

[Mr.Vicchio]

I will fall out of my chair the day bishop says something isn't Bush's fault...


Tell me Bishop, why is there a clause in the Kyoto accords that negates signatory countries patent protections? What does that have to do with "saving the planet"?

[Pooeypants]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio No, you missed the point, the CLIMATE IS ALWAYS CHANGEING. It is never ever static. Thus the comment, what the weather is today, is just transitory. It wouldn't remin the same 100 years from now, if men had never climbed out of the trees...

So climate change in reality, takes decades at least then, with no significant detectable change in years?

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio Living in harmony means what? For every action man takes, whether intentional or not... it effects everything else. I suppose you want man to go back to being more like the Native Americans who were in touch with Nature then? (I hate to break this to you, but they abused the land, the wildlife.. burned whole forests.. to suit thier needs)

I hate to break this to you but I don't like strawmen's and even if I did advocate what you're suggesting, the scale at which the Native American's damaged the wildlife is no where near what we can and are doing now in a lot of the parts of the world. But I guess for you, it's basically, screw the world, I live here and I can what I want, right?

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio http://www.eugenicsarchive.org/eugenics/ Click the Eugenics Popularization, read the flahs bit, it's... enlightening.

I see the views of a few scientists from ye olde, not the consensus as you claimed. Do you have a source to show that most scientists at that time agreed with eugenics? It is your claim and you must back it up with a specific quote.

[Pooeypants]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio No, you're conclusions are clearly marred by your hate of Bush. Everything else you had to say was twisted by your inability to see past that. Investment in new enrgy sources? Oh boy, that's really gonna help manufacturing cut pollution! Wow, so now the power going to the plant is "clean" (assuming that an alternative energy source can meet demands, which they have not) but, what's this? The plant has to spend 20% more a year to operate "clean".... Or they could move their business to X country without such restrictions... 20% more to produce a product, or make it cheaper without all the hassle... Doesn't take a genius to see which will prevail. America produces 20% of the worlds C02 emmissions you say. 20%. 80% is produced from? If my source is correct (no not Crightons book, I closed the link after some digging and I will leave to some else to refute me) comes from: 3rd world nations, China and India. I think it was around 40% projected to reach 60% in 10 years. And those countries... wouldn't be subjected to Kyoto Restrictions.... Yes Kyoto is a very useful and important treaty, it shows the fallacy of hysteria masking as science.

You forgot, America houses just 5% of world's population, with China and India you're looking at combined nearly 25% of world's population. Now, I'm not sure if you can understand that, but somehow, it just seems out of proportion just how much the US is pumping out.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Pooey, the climate is always changing, sometimes, it's slow, sometimes.. it's not. There are at least, three I do believe, aburt dramatic shifts in the worlds climate that cannot be pinpointed to.. say an asteroid, or the like, in the geological records. It happens...

1000 years ago the earth was MUCH warmer then it is today... why? We don't know, and we don't wknow why it cooled as it did...

Sounds like envy clouds your judgement. The successful, the prosperous, must be punished for their accomplishments.. based on faulty science and the hysteria that follows?

[Pooeypants]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio Pooey, the climate is always changing, sometimes, it's slow, sometimes.. it's not. There are at least, three I do believe, aburt dramatic shifts in the worlds climate that cannot be pinpointed to.. say an asteroid, or the like, in the geological records. It happens...

So, is the IPCC some kind of conspiracing union of scientists out to subvert the world?

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio 1000 years ago the earth was MUCH warmer then it is today... why? We don't know, and we don't wknow why it cooled as it did...

How much higher was the global temperature just a thousand years ago?

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio Sounds like envy clouds your judgement. The successful, the prosperous, must be punished for their accomplishments.. based on faulty science and the hysteria that follows?

Sounds like you want to protect the large corporations regardless of how much damage they do to the environment, remember, you support an administration that has pressurised scientists to change their reports so as to not reveal the full facts.

[gr8fuldaniel]

"If the science doesn't fit what the White House wants it to be, it distorts the science." --Henry Waxman

I like my title for this thread before somebody mysteriously altered it. I guess merged it with another topic, is more accurate. It quoted Al Gore, who is challenging Bush for being a moral coward. It is good to challenge moral cowards. Moral cowards could become better people if they can accept constructive criticism. I wanted that to be the impetus for debate. The moral failure to do the right thing. To choose whats good for the masses of humanity over the profits of a few greedy CEOs and Politicians.
GWB claims to be a moral leader of this country, but his policy shows otherwise.
His proponents will hide their heads in the sand when the facts are clear. "The sky is blue! The sky is blue!" They shout like chicken little. But do not be decieved, we have a common enemy: Pollution, and it grows larger when you ignore it. Bush the lesser only needs to say the word. But he REALLY IS a moral midget and a coward.
Dont forget he replaced Los Angeles with Houston as the most smog-ridden city in America. Thats no small feat. Why should he start caring now? Who knows, maybe some day he will have a spiritual experience and start caring about people, rather than profit.
Let his record speak:
Gov. Bush puts a chokehold on Houston (Somebody may not trust a site called topplebush.com, but everything seems to be well documented)

[Pooeypants]

This is an interesting article just published today from Newscientist.

Check some of the skeptics of global warming. Obviously their funding by ExxonMobil is entirely coincidental.

[bishop]

Quote by: lackey I will fall out of my chair the day bishop says something isn't Bush's fault...

what did i say here that was bush's fault exactly? that he hasn't led on this issue? he hasn't, that isn't a lie either. other republicans, however, have shown that they do care about the environment. since they disagree with bush, would you call them rino's?

Tell me Bishop, why is there a clause in the Kyoto accords that negates signatory countries patent protections? What does that have to do with "saving the planet"?

i study and follow economics, not the environment. so, i haven't read kyoto's text. care to quote this clause for us ignorant folk?

[Chris the Chees]

Mr Vicchio, you just made a completely irrelevant statement, why don't you try and respond to the point.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Here is the Kyoto Protocol. This should have been made available earlier.

Here is a press release from nov 18

[Mr.Vicchio]

Check the funding for many of the scientist pushing global warming. You might find that of inteerst if you are seeking conflicts of interest.

The IPCC report was CHANGED after the scientest had written it by bureacrats Pooey, they didn't like wha the original report says. And I love the "well if they don't believe in global warming they must be part of the oil industry!"

what an absurd and flase claim. Go read the book guys, do me that favor, you might, afte reading the footnotes, get an idea where I stand a little better. I HAD that stance before the book, but Crieghton did such a good job, I MUST push his book. It's very well done.

[Samildanach]

Vic as you point out, we have no simulation that is capable of predicting any catastrophic change occurring accurately, however by that reasoning if our simulations are not accurate and all we know is that change is occurring should we not err on the side of caution and try to mitigate our impact just in case?

[bishop]

Check the funding for many of the scientist pushing global warming. You might find that of inteerst if you are seeking conflicts of interest.

if you know of a study that claims global warming is a myth, that was not funded by any manufacturing/energy company, or any group affiliated with those interests, kindly let us know about it...

tell you one thing though, the overwhelming volume of scientific opinion believes that global warming is real. i tend to believe in concensus when it comes to things i don't study, like global warming. and although you work in some sort of weather-related field, unless you have a master's degree or phd in it, i don't see you as any more credible than the next person.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Erring on the side of caution, here's my problem, we can and should take all REASONABLE steps to reduce pollution. But, Kyoto, is not that solution. Do you know that in Japan, high polluting industry can BUY credits to keep polluting? WTF good is that? The credits are a tradable commidity on the Japanese markets! How does that do any good? Seriously?

[Pooeypants]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio Erring on the side of caution, here's my problem, we can and should take all REASONABLE steps to reduce pollution. But, Kyoto, is not that solution. Do you know that in Japan, high polluting industry can BUY credits to keep polluting? WTF good is that? The credits are a tradable commidity on the Japanese markets! How does that do any good? Seriously?

So do you agree that the Kyoto treaty doesn't do enough and that we need a more stringent contract to contain and minimise further pollution?

[rmnunez]

Bishop, I do remember a well-researched study claiming global warming predictions erroneously premised and grossly exagerated. They discuss the effects of sunspots, patterns of glaciation, nature's assimilitative qualities. Can't offer a cite, I do remember it was offered as a "companion text" to the environmental studies program at a local institution. The material wasn't particularly deep, but the sources were excellent. One theory advanced was that the mere growth in the number of events measured and the enhanced precision of the measurements statistically required higher "highs" and lower "lows" across the board.

[fushigi]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio Erring on the side of caution, here's my problem, we can and should take all REASONABLE steps to reduce pollution. But, Kyoto, is not that solution. Do you know that in Japan, high polluting industry can BUY credits to keep polluting? WTF good is that? The credits are a tradable commidity on the Japanese markets! How does that do any good? Seriously?

Mr. V, that scheme is called emissions trading. And you're right, it sounds absurd. But according to a research team from MIT, it "can achieve environmental goals faster and at lower costs than other alternatives".

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2003/pew.html

It's worked well in the U.S. cutting sulphur dioxide and mercury emissions. And it's based on the premise of free market capitalism, which is something we all love.