Worker Ownership For the 21st Century?

[Dan74]

OK. Thank you for the straight answer.
In this socialist system you require (as if we are not practically there already)

If you think America is a socialist society then you have no idea what socialism is.

What are you proposing we do about my oppression from other workers I am shackled too who are less productive than me to such a fault that the productive end up being slaves to the un productive workers?

Laziness and refusal to work are merely products of the capitalist system.

In a collectivist society, people understand that their labor is for the good of all. In an objectivist society, people work to enrich themselves. The latter creates exploitation, as bosses are created and wage slavery dominates society.

Are we all paid the same wage or is there a scale that would benefit the more productive worker.

I don't believe in wage slavery.

[truthreality]

If you think America is a socialist society then you have no idea what socialism is.



Laziness and refusal to work are merely products of the capitalist system.

In a collectivist society, people understand that their labor is for the good of all. In an objectivist society, people work to enrich themselves. The latter creates exploitation, as bosses are created and wage slavery dominates society.



I don't believe in wage slavery.

You know I have a similar theory as yours. I wonder, however, if such a system is practical. I believe love should run the world, not money. It seems like an unreasonable utopian society, though.

I believe collectivism is what has contributed significantly to the growth of countries such as China and India. The problem with America is that it has become a completely individualistic society which has led to selfishness and greed.

European countries , in general, have higher levels of satisfaction and happiness. A large reason for this has to do with the fact that European countries are collectivist.

[Chris the Chees]

There are a myriad of methods by which one can better themselves to enhance their employment value. Whining about your situation is not one of them

There are, they cost money. Let us break down some figures here.

If a person is on minimum wage they earn £11,856 per annum. Less tax that is £10779.80.

The largest individual expense is rent. Rent, for even a one bedroom is liable to cost around £500 pcm at least. Which reduced their available income to £4779.80. For a Bracket A flat in the twon these guys work in, council tax will set them back £940, leaving them with £3839.80. Then they have to pay bills, the standard bills (water, power, phone, etc) will come to approx. £15 per week, or £780, leaving them with £3059.80. Then, of course, they have to pay for food. I live cheap and I pay around £30 per week. So that leaves them with £1499.80. And then they have to get to and from work everyday. If they own a car, then they are likely paying £50 per month on fuel at least, so that takes them down to £899.80. Then they have to ensure the car and pay tax, so down to around £500. Then, of course, they need to buy cloaths, so lets say they pay £100 per year on that. Now they are down to £400. Which basically leaves them to spent £33 each month on whatever they want. You know, like the occassional visit to the pub, a DvD or two. Whatever. Of course they may get council tax concessions, aid in paying some of their rent, that kind of thing. So lets bump that upto £45 a month (£540). Not a lot of money at all.

So how much could they reasonably spend on education? Well, if they wanted to do 30 credits a year with the Open University (basically one module over a year), it would cost them £1250. You do the maths on that.

[Dieval]

There are, they cost money. Let us break down some figures here.

If a person is on minimum wage they earn £11,856 per annum. Less tax that is £10779.80.

The largest individual expense is rent. Rent, for even a one bedroom is liable to cost around £500 pcm at least. Which reduced their available income to £4779.80. For a Bracket A flat in the twon these guys work in, council tax will set them back £940, leaving them with £3839.80. Then they have to pay bills, the standard bills (water, power, phone, etc) will come to approx. £15 per week, or £780, leaving them with £3059.80. Then, of course, they have to pay for food. I live cheap and I pay around £30 per week. So that leaves them with £1499.80. And then they have to get to and from work everyday. If they own a car, then they are likely paying £50 per month on fuel at least, so that takes them down to £899.80. Then they have to ensure the car and pay tax, so down to around £500. Then, of course, they need to buy cloaths, so lets say they pay £100 per year on that. Now they are down to £400. Which basically leaves them to spent £33 each month on whatever they want. You know, like the occassional visit to the pub, a DvD or two. Whatever. Of course they may get council tax concessions, aid in paying some of their rent, that kind of thing. So lets bump that upto £45 a month (£540). Not a lot of money at all.

So how much could they reasonably spend on education? Well, if they wanted to do 30 credits a year with the Open University (basically one module over a year), it would cost them £1250. You do the maths on that.

Loans and grants don't exist on the other side of the pond? How about roommates or family? How about a second job?

...as previously stated, "a myriad of methods"...

[Dodds]

I've made my points just fine, thanks.

I have to disagree. Your points are weak, baseless, ignorant and unintelligible for the most part.

And just why can't people control their situation?
Does your data explain the question I just asked?

What a stupid question. How can you control something you have no say in?

Not at all.

Good, then why are you once more using typical right winger tactics of ignoring evidence as it doesn't fit with your beliefs?

[Dodds]

And after 70 years of increasing the size of their government in the uk and almost crushing social mobility you advocate one thing to fix the problem. MORE GOVERMENT. At least then the social mobility debate will be over because everyone will just stay at the bottom under the goverment

This may be the funniest thing I have read. Government is tiny now compared to even 50 years ago.

[Dieval]

What a stupid question. How can you control something you have no say in?

I guess you and I have a different ideas about peoples lives, their circumstances, and how to control it.

You seem to be under the impression that people can't do a damned thing about their life...they're completely helpless and dependent on the government to hold their hand and change their circumstances for them (or in most cases keep them sucking on the government teat for the rest of their miserable lives)..

I, on the other hand, have a lot more faith in people and believe that anyone is fully capable of handling whatever life throws at them and if they truly want to change their lives and circumstances, they will. Where there's a will there's a way.

[Dodds]

I guess you and I have a different ideas about peoples lives, their circumstances, and how to control it.

I live in the real world. No ideas, conclusions that I came to by looking at evidence.

You seem to be under the impression that people can't do a damned thing about their life...they're completely helpless and dependent on the government to hold their hand and change their circumstances for them (or in most cases keep them sucking on the government teat for the rest of their miserable lives)..

What a load of crap. But the countries with higher social mobility are the ones who are more social democratic. What you call dependent on government I call equality of opportunity. Again evidence backs up that this is a better system.

I, on the other hand, have a lot more faith in people and believe that anyone is fully capable of handling whatever life throws at them and if they truly want to change their lives and circumstances, they will. Where there's a will there's a way.

This is like debating a creationist. You can lead the right wing to data but you can't make them think or understand the data. You have faith, I have evidence.

[Dieval]

I live in the real world. No ideas, conclusions that I came to by looking at evidence.

You obviously don't live in the world I do, so your "real world" is questionable

What a load of crap. But the countries with higher social mobility are the ones who are more social democratic. What you call dependent on government I call equality of opportunity. Again evidence backs up that this is a better system.

So, my understanding of your view is correct...that's all you had to say.

This is like debating a creationist. You can lead the right wing to data but you can't make them think or understand the data. You have faith, I have evidence.

"Evidence" of what? that people don't often change their lives...well no shit. Is that all by circumstances beyond their control, as you seem to think? Hardly.

[Dodds]

You obviously don't live in the world I do, so your "real world" is questionable

Thats kinda funny.

So, my understanding of your view is correct...that's all you had to say.

No your understanding of my view is a strawman argument. Something about a government teet or some other shit.

"Evidence" of what? that people don't often change their lives...well no shit. Is that all by circumstances beyond their control, as you seem to think? Hardly.

As I said, like a creationist. Oh would you like to back up any of your claims? I am going to guess no.

[Dieval]

Thats kinda funny.

I thought your statement was, which explains why I used a smiley

No your understanding of my view is a strawman argument. Something about a government teet or some other shit.

You can't explain how I got it wrong? Explain where my understanding of your view is incorrect.

As I said, like a creationist. Oh would you like to back up any of your claims? I am going to guess no.

Just a quick example of people who changed their lives and became successful...
http://www.onlinecollege.org/2010/02...iled-at-first/
...and as I've said in various posts before, there's my personal experience of putting myself through school while working at McDonalds up to now where I work as a programmer for a large financial services company...imagine that - someone changed their circumstances and made their life better...

What have you done, other than complain that people are hopelessly stuck in their miserable lives and everything is beyond their control?

[Dodds]

I thought your statement was, which explains why I used a smiley

Oh thats what that was.

You can't explain how I got it wrong? Explain where my understanding of your view is incorrect.

The government teat bit. My view is that the government should encourage social mobility and those who get the most out of the system should pay the most via taxation. Wheres the sucking at the teat part?

Just a quick example of people who changed their lives and became successful...
http://www.onlinecollege.org/2010/02...iled-at-first/

And did I ever say it could not be done? I just pointed out that it is more likely to happen in social democracies. The reasons for this are many and complex, but none of them are in the control of people due to accident of birth.

...and as I've said in various posts before, there's my personal experience of putting myself through school while working at McDonalds up to now where I work as a programmer for a large financial services company...imagine that - someone changed their circumstances and made their life better...

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. Fact is you are a minority.

What have you done, other than complain that people are hopelessly stuck in their miserable lives and everything is beyond their control?

Complain? I am attempting to educate you for free. You should be thanking me.