The Truth is not Politically Correct (Yugoslavia spinoff)

[Gorgo]

Bishop, you keep saying that, but there is no evidence of "open genocide" in Yugoslavia. None.

[Villin221]

Indeed, our foreign policy seems to be decided be greedy Corporations. We pump billions of dollars into the economies of tyrannical Governments who abuse human rights and destroy the environment while using these very crimes as justification to attack countries that pose no direct threat. Every intelligent person knows that, even some Republicans. I admit that I'm not out picketing the White House in response or doing more than complaining about it with my friends while hanging out drinking beers and watching our favorite sports teams. Why should I? My life is comfortable. I think I said this before, but most people in the world worry about their next meal while most Americans worry about how fat they look in the mirror. There is some validity to the argument that our complacency itself is a crime.

[bishop]

Quote by: Gorgo Bishop, you keep saying that, but there is no evidence of "open genocide" in Yugoslavia. None.

well that's interesting.. especially given the fact that people from milosevich's camp are continuously being convicted at the hague. i suppose that they're nothing more than kangaroo courts, eh? quite the long list right there.. amazing that an international body would convict all these people with absolutely no evidence..

http://hrw.org/reports/2004/ij/icty/1.htm

[Starboy]

Quote by: Gorgo Bishop, you keep saying that, but there is no evidence of "open genocide" in Yugoslavia. None.

You mean like death camps or mass graves?

Would this qualify?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1402605.stm

But even if there where no death camps what about all that sniping against civilians in Kosovo? Are you saying that didn't happen? If they would kill innocent men, women and children in the streets it wouldn't surprise me if there were death camps.

Starboy

[Gorgo]

Starboy, you may wish to re-read that article. You found one article that talks about 36 bodies here and 80 some bodies here, and lots of unfounded stories, but no reasonable evidence of "open genocide," whatever that means.

And yes, Bishop, this is largely a kangaroo court, set up by NATO war criminals to justify their crimes.

[Gorgo]

I've posted articles before about Yugoslavia. Here's another:

http://www.fpif.org/commentary/2004/...tale_body.html

[Starboy]

Quote by: Gorgo Starboy, you may wish to re-read that article. You found one article that talks about 36 bodies here and 80 some bodies here, and lots of unfounded stories, but no reasonable evidence of "open genocide," whatever that means.

I never said it did show direct evidence for systematic genocide. But is it more evidence for unsystematic genocide that could have been part of systematic genocide. But genocide is genocide. Why the insistence of holding the leaders harmless just because there is no evidence of systematic genocide?

Starboy

[bishop]

the numbers are certainly suspect, i don't disagree with that. they were clearly obtained in a frenzied, unorganized manner. the problem i have is that many serbs openly admitted that they took part in massacres of civilians. and there are massacre survivors who've also given their accounts of massacres. also, while the numbers are suspect, the fact that serb militias targetted civilians is not.

[Gorgo]

There was a war going on guys. All that can be said is that a lot of people had to leave their homes, largely because of NATO bombing, a lot of people died on all sides, and every faction committed their share of war crimes. There was never any reasonable evidence of a policy of genocide from the Yugoslavian government. You have a pretty loose definition of genocide if you think rumors of trucks carrying bodies and a few graves constitute reasonable evidence of genocide.

And certainly, the worst damage was done after NATO started bombing. There is nothing that justifies that crime.

[Starboy]

Hey no problem there was a war going on. And when there are cases of snipers shooting and shelling innocent people in a city for what, years, then that is not genocide? Even if one could make a military case for it, it would still be a war crime.

Starboy

[Gorgo]

We are hijacking this thread. I have posted articles before, and I just posted another. That's enough hijacking of this thread for Yugoslavia.

[bishop]

there are estimates stating that milosevich's wars killed some 200,000 people. of course, these are numbers again, and i don't know how valid they are. these were wars specifically directed against ethnic albanians. yes, the albanians are certainly guilty of their own crimes and i do not support the fact that we've given them military aid.

i've never seen a definition of genocide that cites a number. it does, however state that you directly look to kill a specific ethnic group. there is evidence of serb militias massacring villages and burning them to the ground. plus, all of these wars were directed against albanians.

you've made a good case though gorgo.. it does look like the facts were exaggerated, but it doesn't look like we were entirely lied to.


just out of curiosity, what do you say the reason for our intervention was?

[bishop]

a mod should split this for us.

[Scribbler1]

I hear and obey! :)

[castille]

The war against the glorious motherland of Yugoslavia was an aggressive imperialist action by the cowards of Europe and America. Our brave soldiers fought to the last man and the last bullet, but the cowards rained missile fire onto our cities, murdering billions of innocent young children, while fat capitalist pigs sat in their French sofas eating the hearts of Yugoslavian children and planning more death and destruction for our glorious nation.

Meanwhile, the Albanian terrorists, backed by the international conspiracy of neo-fascist capitalists in New York, are participating in genocide against our people.

But comrades, we will stand fast against the fascists and capitalists! For the glorious Revolution! All hail Milosevich, our brave hero who stands fast against the American coward capitalist Nazis!

[Scribbler1]

You know, Castille, maybe you could get a cheap kitchen timer at any big supermarket, or a clock or something. That way you won't miss taking any of your meds in the future.

What was your point there? I believe I missed it.

[rmnunez]

There was use of the mechanisms of state to erradicate a community based on ethnic animus. As a consequence many were killed, displaced and dispossesed. How many corpses does it take to constitute genocide?

[Gorgo]

The last question to me was what was the reason for the U.S. war against the people of Yugoslavia.

I posted this before, but I think this gives a brief account of the best speculation I've found:

http://www.michaelparenti.org/yugoslavia.html

[Gorgo]

Or more fantastic, NATO bombed the hell out of people in order to save them from some nonexistent evil.

Quote by: castille The war against the glorious motherland of Yugoslavia was an aggressive imperialist action by the cowards of Europe and America. Our brave soldiers fought to the last man and the last bullet, but the cowards rained missile fire onto our cities, murdering billions of innocent young children, while fat capitalist pigs sat in their French sofas eating the hearts of Yugoslavian children and planning more death and destruction for our glorious nation. Meanwhile, the Albanian terrorists, backed by the international conspiracy of neo-fascist capitalists in New York, are participating in genocide against our people. But comrades, we will stand fast against the fascists and capitalists! For the glorious Revolution! All hail Milosevich, our brave hero who stands fast against the American coward capitalist Nazis!

[IndieC]

Right Gorgo, lets look at the facts shall we? First of all, as was mentioned before, people have actually admitted they took part in massacres. Hell, even the Albanians have admitted that they killed their own people to get the international community to act. Second, it was all over the news. Third, you talk to anyone who has been there, and worked or lived there for a few months at least, and when I say worked or lived, I mean in the same living conditions as the Serbs and the Kosovars, not in a 5 star hotel in Belgrade, and they will all tell you of all of the horrible stories that they have heard from refugees who were wounded by NATO bombings, true, but also those who were tied up and saw their children being raped and murdered in front of their eyes, and who were then themselves raped, left for dead at the end of the ordeal. You hear about how wounded civilians had to crawl back to the towns to get any kind of healthcare. You learn that entire villages have been eradicated. You hear stories of the mass graves that these people found while walking in the woods.

Even not counting all of this, just read the books, or talk to specialists. People who have written papers on the subject, people who have done extensive research into it, people obviously unlike you. People who are recognised as a global authority on the subject. Talk to members of the UN who have visited the site, talk to former members of the Serb armed forces, one of which I am very privileged to know. They will all tell you of the atrocities that were committed both by the Serbs and by the Albanians. Talk to professors and lecturers at your local university, and they will say the same thing.

I am sorry, but so many people talking about the same thing, talking about the same incidents, so many mass graves having been discovered. I remember watching the news at the time, and seeing these bodies in a pit. The UN, an international organisation has officially recognised that it was genocide, and if you don't believe them, then quite frankly, you have no credibility whatsoever. All of your arguments are based on a highly biased opinion, which you have formed simply because of your suspicions about NATO, and the US, and the West in general. You have not looked at any of the facts, and, in fact, most of the world is against you. Denying the ethnic cleansing and the genocide in Kosovo is like trying to deny that genocide is happening now in the Sudan, or that it happened in Rwanda.