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IndieC · Apr 17, 2005, 10:14 am

Well, if you belive you are a higher authority of the Yugoslav question than someone with a PhD, who works with 9 Fellows of the Royal Historical Society, at the university which is the home of International Politics, then good for you. I will add that a member of the International Institute for Strategic Studies, who has also taught at the Britannia Royal Naval College, agrees with me, but, obviously that isn't good enough for you. If the website is worthless to you, you will have a difficult job trying to find something that isn't, considering the authority which has backed it up, even recommended it to be used as a source to hundreds of undergraduate students at Aberyswyth. If you so wish, i can call all of your sources worthless, until you can come up with a backing which is superior to mine, meaning that all of your sources are worthless compared to this one.

Oh, and we are not talking about the demonization of Serbs, we are talking about whether or not there was ethnic cleansing by the Serbs, which i have already proved there was. If you wish for more evidence, go to a library near you, and look in a book called "Military History" by Richard Holmes. Then look at the article on Genocide, you will see that it mentions Kosovo, and the ethnic cleansing by Serbs on not only Albanians, but also Bosnians and Croats.

**Chris the Chees** · Apr 17, 2005, 10:15 am

Your failure to back up your dismissal of this site with out any kind of argument against it is a smoke screen to avoid arguing against a source which you know disproves your case regarding the size of the mass murder.

By stating that the site tells you "nothing", you are clearly using evasion tactics. The site tells you the death statistic given by these different independant sources, which as far as this discussion is concearned is the only remotly relevant information. In short, the site tells you everything you need to know.

Now, either find a reputable source which provides alternative figures, to contradict the cited statistics, or give it up.

bishop · Apr 17, 2005, 10:29 am

the problem with your sources chris, is that they don't actually say where the information comes from.. virtually all of the media outlets looking at kosovo have merely repeated allegations made by the white house/pentagon. it doesn't matter how many independent sites repeat the same b.s.. that's no different than all the media groups talking up iraqi wmd's before the war - only to realize that they were merely bush's puppets.

here's a piece from cato explaining the gross exaggerations, or even lies, that revolve around kosovo. i suggest reading the full brief too.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-373es.html

Quote:

The Clinton administration has embarked on yet another multi-billion-dollar nation-building adventure, which many analysts suggest will entangle the U.S. military for a decade or longer. This situation could have been avoided. Because of its inept diplomacy and strategic miscalculation, the administration bears a large measure of responsibility for both Kosovo's humanitarian crisis a year ago and the KLA's postwar thuggery. It is now clear that the administration's claims of "horrific slaughter" and attempts at "genocide" by the Serbs were gross exaggerations designed to whip up support for intervention from a skeptical Congress and public.

Gorgo · Apr 17, 2005, 10:32 am

Quote:

Quote by: IndieC

obviously that isn't good enough for you

What I have is you telling me all these things, and you're not even clear about what it is you're telling me.

IndieC · Apr 17, 2005, 10:53 am

Gorgo, i see no reason to debate any further on this subject, i have more important things to do, like writing an essay. I have given you a website, and it is somehow unlikely that i would blatently lie about my sources, and who recommended them. Implying such is insulting. Until you come up with a source which is as well recommended, and as reliable as the website i showed you, or take back your comment about it being "worthless", and admit that this source is reliable, i refuse to debate with you on this matter. If you are so obsessed about the sources this man uses for his website, why don't you go and read them and find out why those who recommended it did?

Gorgo · Apr 17, 2005, 11:04 am

Thanks, Bishop. Good article.

Gorgo · Apr 17, 2005, 11:08 am

Quote:

Quote by: IndieC

it is somehow unlikely that i would blatently lie about my sources

It is somehow unlikely that I know you from anyone or whether you are lying or telling the truth, or competent or incompetent. There are lots of smart people that think stupid things, so your appeal to authority is not at all helpful to a reasonable discussion. The fact that some newspaper says that "the Pentagon says," without making any attempt to verify that information tells me nothing.

Good luck with your studies.

Gorgo · Apr 17, 2005, 11:14 am

Quote:

Quote by: Chris the Chees

Your failure to back up your dismissal of this site with out any kind of argument against it is a smoke screen to avoid arguing against a source which you know disproves your case regarding the size of the mass murder.

Your inability to answer some simple questions tells me that you are unwilling to engage in reasonable discussion.

Gorgo · Apr 17, 2005, 11:40 am

More info:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/In...uried_NATO.htm

Gorgo · Apr 17, 2005, 01:32 pm

"By June 1999, with the bombardment over, international forensic teams began subjecting Kosovo to minute examination. The American FBI arrived to investigate what was called "the largest crime scene in the FBI's forensic history". Several weeks later, having not found a single mass grave, the FBI went home. The Spanish forensic team also returned home, its leader complaining angrily that he and his colleagues had become part of "a semantic pirouette by the war propaganda machines, because we did not find one--not one--mass grave".

In November 1999, the Wall Street Journal published the results of its own investigation, dismissing "the mass grave obsession". Instead of "the huge killing fields some investigators were led to expect ... the pattern is of scattered killings [mostly] in areas where the separatist Kosovo Liberation Army has been active". The Journal concluded that Nato stepped up its claims about Serbian killing fields when it "saw a fatigued press corps drifting toward the contrary story: civilians killed by Nato's bombs ... The war in Kosovo was cruel, bitter, savage. Genocide it wasn't."

One year later, the International War Crimes Tribunal, a body in effect set up by Nato, announced that the final count of bodies found in Kosovo's "mass graves" was 2,788. This included combatants on both sides and Serbs and Roma murdered by the Albanian Kosovo Liberation Army. Like Iraq's fabled weapons of mass destruction, the figures used by the US and British governments and echoed by journalists were inventions--along with Serbian "rape camps" and Clinton's and Blair's claims that Nato never deliberately bombed civilians.

The above portion of an article is from New Statesman (1996), December 13, 2004.

Apr 17, 2005, 10:14 am	#81 (permalink) (top)
IndieC Igneous Magma Location: UK Posts: 303	Well, if you belive you are a higher authority of the Yugoslav question than someone with a PhD, who works with 9 Fellows of the Royal Historical Society, at the university which is the home of International Politics, then good for you. I will add that a member of the International Institute for Strategic Studies, who has also taught at the Britannia Royal Naval College, agrees with me, but, obviously that isn't good enough for you. If the website is worthless to you, you will have a difficult job trying to find something that isn't, considering the authority which has backed it up, even recommended it to be used as a source to hundreds of undergraduate students at Aberyswyth. If you so wish, i can call all of your sources worthless, until you can come up with a backing which is superior to mine, meaning that all of your sources are worthless compared to this one. Oh, and we are not talking about the demonization of Serbs, we are talking about whether or not there was ethnic cleansing by the Serbs, which i have already proved there was. If you wish for more evidence, go to a library near you, and look in a book called "Military History" by Richard Holmes. Then look at the article on Genocide, you will see that it mentions Kosovo, and the ethnic cleansing by Serbs on not only Albanians, but also Bosnians and Croats. "Never before in the history of warfare had destruction been so indiscriminate and universal" - makes you think of Hiroshima... -H.G. Wells, The War of the Worlds

Apr 17, 2005, 10:15 am	#82 (permalink) (top)
Chris the Chees Moderator Location: Wales Posts: 2,272	Your failure to back up your dismissal of this site with out any kind of argument against it is a smoke screen to avoid arguing against a source which you know disproves your case regarding the size of the mass murder. By stating that the site tells you "nothing", you are clearly using evasion tactics. The site tells you the death statistic given by these different independant sources, which as far as this discussion is concearned is the only remotly relevant information. In short, the site tells you everything you need to know. Now, either find a reputable source which provides alternative figures, to contradict the cited statistics, or give it up. Society may be formed so as to exist without crime, without poverty, […] no obstacle whatsoever intervenes at this moment except ignorance to prevent such a state of society. Robert Owen Last edited by Chris the Chees; Apr 17, 2005 at 10:20 am.

Apr 17, 2005, 10:53 am	#85 (permalink) (top)
IndieC Igneous Magma Location: UK Posts: 303	Gorgo, i see no reason to debate any further on this subject, i have more important things to do, like writing an essay. I have given you a website, and it is somehow unlikely that i would blatently lie about my sources, and who recommended them. Implying such is insulting. Until you come up with a source which is as well recommended, and as reliable as the website i showed you, or take back your comment about it being "worthless", and admit that this source is reliable, i refuse to debate with you on this matter. If you are so obsessed about the sources this man uses for his website, why don't you go and read them and find out why those who recommended it did? "Never before in the history of warfare had destruction been so indiscriminate and universal" - makes you think of Hiroshima... -H.G. Wells, The War of the Worlds

Apr 17, 2005, 11:40 am	#89 (permalink) (top)
Gorgo BANNED-Warned multiple times about instigating. User then reported topics multiple times to mess with staff. Posts: 4,412	More info: http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/In...uried_NATO.htm Last edited by Gorgo; Apr 17, 2005 at 11:50 am.

Apr 17, 2005, 11:04 am	#86 (permalink) (top)
Gorgo BANNED-Warned multiple times about instigating. User then reported topics multiple times to mess with staff. Posts: 4,412	Thanks, Bishop. Good article.

Apr 17, 2005, 01:32 pm	#90 (permalink) (top)
Gorgo BANNED-Warned multiple times about instigating. User then reported topics multiple times to mess with staff. Posts: 4,412	"By June 1999, with the bombardment over, international forensic teams began subjecting Kosovo to minute examination. The American FBI arrived to investigate what was called "the largest crime scene in the FBI's forensic history". Several weeks later, having not found a single mass grave, the FBI went home. The Spanish forensic team also returned home, its leader complaining angrily that he and his colleagues had become part of "a semantic pirouette by the war propaganda machines, because we did not find one--not one--mass grave". In November 1999, the Wall Street Journal published the results of its own investigation, dismissing "the mass grave obsession". Instead of "the huge killing fields some investigators were led to expect ... the pattern is of scattered killings [mostly] in areas where the separatist Kosovo Liberation Army has been active". The Journal concluded that Nato stepped up its claims about Serbian killing fields when it "saw a fatigued press corps drifting toward the contrary story: civilians killed by Nato's bombs ... The war in Kosovo was cruel, bitter, savage. Genocide it wasn't." One year later, the International War Crimes Tribunal, a body in effect set up by Nato, announced that the final count of bodies found in Kosovo's "mass graves" was 2,788. This included combatants on both sides and Serbs and Roma murdered by the Albanian Kosovo Liberation Army. Like Iraq's fabled weapons of mass destruction, the figures used by the US and British governments and echoed by journalists were inventions--along with Serbian "rape camps" and Clinton's and Blair's claims that Nato never deliberately bombed civilians. The above portion of an article is from New Statesman (1996), December 13, 2004.