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Gorgo · Apr 17, 2005, 05:16 am

Recent sources for whatever it is that you're claiming happened, please? I'm not clear on what you are claiming. Where are recent sources for mass graves which show anything other than what I've said. Where are the thousands of people in mass graves that died because of some policy of genocide of the Yugoslavian government. If you are claiming "ethnic cleansing," please define that and show recent sources that show this happened.

Again, there was a war going on that was sparked by NATO countries, mostly Germany. People died, crimes occurred on all sides. Where is the evidence of a policy of genocide?

Gorgo · Apr 17, 2005, 05:32 am

Maybe it would help if I posted this. Does anyone have any disagreement with any of this?

http://www.michaelparenti.org/yugoslavia.html

"Up until the bombings began in March 1999, the conflict in Kosovo had taken 2000 lives altogether from both sides, according to Kosovo Albanian sources. Yugoslavian sources had put the figure at 800. In either case, such casualties reveal a limited insurgency, not genocide. The forced expulsion policy began after the NATO bombings, with thousands being uprooted by Serb forces mostly in areas where the KLA was operating or was suspected of operating. In addition, if the unconfirmed reports by the ethnic Albanian refugees can be believed, there was much plundering and instances of summary execution by Serbian paramilitary forces -- who were unleashed after the NATO bombing started.

We should keep in mind that tens of thousands fled Kosovo because of the bombings, or because the province was the scene of sustained ground fighting between Yugoslav forces and the KLA, or because they were just afraid and hungry. An Albanian woman crossing into Macedonia was eagerly asked by a news crew if she had been forced out by Serb police. She responded: "There were no Serbs. We were frightened of the [NATO] bombs."21 During the bombings, an estimated 70,000 to 100,000 Serbian residents of Kosovo took flight (mostly north but some to the south), as did thousands of Roma and other non-Albanian ethnic groups.22 Were these people ethnically cleansing themselves? Or were they not fleeing the bombing and the ground war?

The New York Times reported that "a major purpose of the NATO effort is to end the Serb atrocities that drove more than one million Albanians from their homes."23 So, we are told to believe, the refugee tide was caused not by the ground war against the KLA and not by the massive NATO bombing but by unspecified atrocities. The bombing, which was the major cause of the refugee problem was now seen as the solution. The refugee problem created in part by the massive aerial attacks was now treated as justification for such attacks, a way of putting pressure on Milosevic to allow "the safe return of ethnic Albanian refugees."24

While Kosovo Albanians were leaving in great numbers -- usually well-clothed and in good health, some riding their tractors, trucks, or cars, many of them young men of recruitment age -- they were described as being "slaughtered." Serbian attacks on KLA strongholds and the forced expulsion of Albanian villagers were described as "genocide." But experts in surveillance photography and wartime propaganda charged NATO with running a "propaganda campaign" on Kosovo that lacked any supporting evidence. State Department reports of mass graves and of 100,000 to 500,000 missing Albanian men "are just ludicrous," according to these independent critics.25 "

Gorgo · Apr 17, 2005, 06:47 am

Quote:

Quote by: Chris the Chees

You realise that very little evidence has been discovered in the USSR, for the alleged atrocities? Yet historians are convinced that millions were killed? You see historians work on considerable more than simple physical evidence to come up with their ideals regarding history. Eye witnesses, confessions, documentation, in conjunction with even a little physical evidence promotes a very strong case. What sources can you site which prove that the witnesses are mistaken and those who have confessed are delusional or lying.

What sources can you cite? My guess is, and I don't know, but in the Soviet Union, you have stories of people who actually say they saw things. You have brothers and fathers missing. We don't have that in Yugoslavia (to prove genocide, that is, I'm not sure what you're claiming), we have people who heard things. And we know that Ruder Finn spread lies, like the fake concentration camp.

Yes, we have crimes, but we don't have hundreds of thousands of people murdered and raped.

IndieC · Apr 17, 2005, 07:08 am

Yes Gorgo, only 2000 people died before the NATO bombings started, but how many people were displaced? Tens of thousands. You saw as i did the pictures on all the news channels, of people, Albanian and Serb, fleeing into UN safe areas within the former Yugoslavia. Unfortunately, the UN were on a peacekeeping mission, and could do nothing to stop the incursions into those safe areas. That is why they called in NATO. NATO does not have principles like the UN, NATO has the right to intervene in places, and not only keep the peace, but also enforce the peace. The legal, as i have proved to you first using the Preamble of the UN Charter, and then using Articles 1 and 2, war in Kosovo was, i will agree, carried out very badly. First and foremost, causing great destruction due to the bombing campaign, and also because the NATO forces did not disarm all sides, as anyone should know should be done in any kind of situation having the remotest resemblance to this one . I will remind you Gorgo, that Ethnic Cleansing is not necessarily killing people of a race other than you own, it is also forcing them to move from their homes, which, in Kosovo, the Serbs did quite effectively. Now, the Albanians did too, i will grant you that, but the Serbs were better equipped and had better training, so if nothing had been done, they would eventually have won, and got on with the ethnic cleansing.

It is not only recently where there have been signs of this ethnic cleansing, ever since the Albanians helped fight the Christian insurgency under the Ottoman Empire in the 1800s, the Christians being the Greeks and the South Slav peoples, mainly Serbs, the Serbs have hated them, and they have hated the Serbs. Even before then, when one goes back to the battle of Kossovo, they have hated each other.

I will further remind you that the UN enforced an arms embargo on the region, which meant that the superiorly armed Serbs forces had the upper hand from the beginning. I will also remind you that I, personally, never said that the NATO campaign was just in the way it was done, in fact, if you look back, i only say it was legal, and criticise it in many ways.

Furthermore, your article above only says there was no genocide, i have admitted that, the numbers of deaths are not high enough, but it never says there was no ethnic cleansing. All it criticises is the enormous exaggeration of figures by authorities in the US and others, and the fact that there were claims of genocide, which i, you will recall, also admitted.

The fact of the matter is, the UN deemed it necessary to have NATO intervene in the conflict, hence making the entire campaign, and the peace enforcement operation now in place, legal. Just or not it was legal, and if it was legal, it means the UN saw it happening, and decided to stop it. Now, if you want to go against primary sources, please do, by all means. If you believe the UN, the creator of international law, and a truly international organisation of which, from when i last checked, only one country, the Vatican City, is not a member, acted in an illegal way, please say so, but you will be wrong. There is no other way of putting it.

IndieC · Apr 17, 2005, 07:18 am

Gorgo, if you want any sources on the Soviet Union, please see Anne Applebaum's bibliography in "Gulag". You will notice that she personally went around looking for people in the Soviet Union who saw things, and who went through these things. The only outside source is Alexander Solzhenitsyn, who managed to escape the Soviet Union. If i really wanted to, I'm sure that i could go looking in Yugoslavia, in fact i am sure people are, for people who witnessed things, eyewitness accounts etc. I'm sure that if i really wanted to, i could write a book, like Anne Applebaum did, but at the moment, i actually need to study so that i can get a job later in life, and i am also not that good at writing books so i wont. However, i have cited for you one eyewitness source, from a person i have seen and spoken to in the Serbian military. I trust his opinion, and, my mum having known him for the past four years, i think i can believe him, especially when she says to me that she would trust this man with my life. So, you have one eyewitness account which i think is refutable, but quite credible. I have no others, personally, but if i asked I'm sure i would find.

Gorgo · Apr 17, 2005, 07:29 am

Quote:

Quote by: IndieC

eyewitness accounts etc

Yes. You don't have that in Yugoslavia. Depending on what you're claiming. The reason for the bombing, as I recall, correct me if I'm wrong, was genocidal conduct as state policy, large-scale mass rapes as state policy and concentration camps. If you're conceding that this was not happening, and that it made no sense to bomb civilians for weeks, then we're not far from agreeing. The rest is details that others will sort out, but I know that Ruder Finn et al lied to the world, and the world bought it.

I don't know if the Serbs were better at it than others. I'll do some research on that. I don't think so. The others had more money, so I'm guessing the Serbs got the worst of it. They're certainly taking the brunt of it now.

Gorgo · Apr 17, 2005, 07:30 am

Quote:

Quote by: IndieC

If you believe the UN, the creator of international law, and a truly international organisation of which, from when i last checked, only one country, the Vatican City, is not a member, acted in an illegal way

If they okayed the bombing of Yugoslavia, then they violated their own charter, because there was no reason to bomb Yugoslavia for weeks.

IndieC · Apr 17, 2005, 07:46 am

Like i said, they never condoned the methods, only the action, and they were following, as i have proved before, the Charter of the UN, which you deem to be international law. As for the eyewitness accounts, how on earth would you know, snug in Ohio, US of A? I've had family go over there, and i gave you an eyewitness account. You are now saying that, actually, a member of the Serbian military who followed his orders, and killed those Albanians, and freely admitted it was ethnic cleansing, is not an eyewitness? Well, in that case, there are no eyewitnesses, and never will be, and never have been, of anything in this world, which is not quite true, considering that eyewitness accounts go back to the days of Herodotus an the Peleponnesian Wan at least.

I never, ever, in all of my posts claimed that the reason for the bombing was:

Quote:

was genocidal conduct as state policy, large-scale mass rapes as state policy and concentration camps

I claimed that it the UN claimed it to be ethnic cleansing, and somehow i doubt that you are a higher authority on the matter than the UN. If you would please refer to the UN SC Resolution i referred to earlier, you will find this.

Gorgo · Apr 17, 2005, 07:51 am

Quote:

Quote by: IndieC

i have cited for you one eyewitness source

Yes, 1 eyewitness source who took an order to do what we both agree happened. What is your point? Crimes were committed by all. This does not take away the fact that the Serbs were demonized far beyond reality.

Gorgo · Apr 17, 2005, 07:54 am

It seems we are not in disagreement except in numbers. There is no evidence, except after the war started, that the Serbs drove Albanians out of the country in any kind of large numbers. During the war, they drove some out of "KLA-infested" areas. Most of the people that left of all nationalities, left because of the bombing. There is no evidence of state-sponsored large scale "ethnic cleansing" or genocide before the bombing.

There was no reason for the bombing, and the bombing made things worse for everyone, and the current situation is much worse than the situation before the bombing.

Are we in disagreement here?

IndieC · Apr 17, 2005, 08:05 am

Yes we are, in some places. There is evidence that Serbs drove Albanians out of their homes. As for large numbers, that is all relative. Compared to millions being killed in the Sudan, it is quite small, but compared to the Madrid train bombings, it is quite large.

When the bombing started people of all nationalities left, yes, they did, but anyone would flee bombing like that. Bombing did make it worse for everyone, but did it make it better in the log run? We don't know yet, we are too soon after the conflict, get back to me in about ten years on that.

As for the reason for the bombing, it is all stated in the UN SC Resolution as i said before, where the UN called for an international force to be deployed. Granted, the bombing was over zealous, and i doubt the UN would have endorsed it if it had known how bad it would be, but they gave the go ahead, and they had to accept it afterwards.

**Chris the Chees** · Apr 17, 2005, 08:25 am

Quote:

Quote by: Gorgo

Recent sources for whatever it is that you're claiming happened, please? I'm not clear on what you are claiming. Where are recent sources for mass graves which show anything other than what I've said. Where are the thousands of people in mass graves that died because of some policy of genocide of the Yugoslavian government. If you are claiming "ethnic cleansing," please define that and show recent sources that show this happened.

Again, there was a war going on that was sparked by NATO countries, mostly Germany. People died, crimes occurred on all sides. Where is the evidence of a policy of genocide?

Not what "I" am claiming Gorgo, I would never dream of making such claims, but statistics from respected news papers and the like. These sources have claimed that the country was "ethenically cleansed", which resulted in the deaths of well over 10,000 people. Which you have denied, by claiming only 2,000 have died.

This site references the figures given, and the sourcs which provided these figures.The statistics cited: -

Quote:

Kosovo (1998-99)

* Ethnic cleansing by Yugoslavs, before the war
o 29 April 1999 AP: 2,000 (in 1998)
o Ploughshares 2000: 1-2,000 (1998)
* Ethnic cleansing during the war
o 18 July 1999 Baltimore Sun (NY Times News Service): 10,000 Albanians killed during 3-month campaign
o 5 July 1999 AP: 10,000
o 4 July 1999 Toronto Star: 10,000
o 9 Nov. 1999 Washington Times: 9,269
o Ploughshares 2000: 2,500-10,000

Now I would like you to explain to all of us how you are better informed than the people who generated these statistics.

Gorgo · Apr 17, 2005, 08:36 am

Again, this is some web site that IndieC found after about 60 seconds of research that says that certain newspaper articles said something. Where are those articles and what did they say and who is their source?

From what I see, these articles are claiming that 2,000 were "ethnically cleansed" before the bombing. Which means that 2,000 people were driven out of their homes? So, you think this justifies killing thousands of people, including the people that NATO was supposed to be protecting, and destroying civilian infrastructure? Again, I fail to see your point.

There is no reasonable evidence that 10,000 people were "driven" from their homes by Serbs during the bombing. Large numbers of people left because of the bombing. Some were driven from their homes wrongly, and some were driven out because they were enemy combatants or working with enemy combatants. Or rather, criminals who were attacking the legal Yugoslavian government.

What exactly are you disagreeing with me on, and where are recent sources which give reasonable evidence of what you are claiming?

**Chris the Chees** · Apr 17, 2005, 08:57 am

Quote:

Again, this is some web site that IndieC found after about 60 seconds of research that says that certain newspaper articles said something

Actually, Gorgo that website was reffered to me by very highly qualified person at my history department, along with other online sources. If its good enough for a department which contains Fellow's of the Royal Historical Society, it is good enough for me.

Which means that 2,000 people were driven out of their homes?

If you care to do even a little research into the site, then you will know that the site deals with deaths, not refugees.

However, I can see that you clearly think that you know more than professionals who research for multi-million dollar grossing news sources, as such I think this discussion can come to a close. Your reaction has proved the point I was trying to make.

IndieC · Apr 17, 2005, 08:59 am

So, Gorgo, basically, you are saying that the newspapers lied about it. You are saying that 5 different sources lied about the same story. These 5 different sources include the Associated Press, two American newspapers, and one Canadian newspaper. Are you saying that the Associated Press is wrong, taht it had no foundation for its news, no reasonable evidence? It is the most respected source of news after Reuters, if not the most respected. Who are you to make those accusations? Granted, there may be other sources which disagree, but i have not yet seen any which disagree with those figures. Also, the figures only reflect the deaths, not the people driven out. It is uncertain how many people were driven out of their homes, but even the lowest estimates are likely to be much higher than the 2000 you agree were killed before NATO began the bombing. On top of that, the figures only talk about Albanians who were killed, and, as you so aptly continuously point out, there were casualties on both sides, so the figures are likely to be much higher, when it comes to overall casualties.

As for the NATO bombing, yes, it was justified, it was legal, but in my opinion it was carried too far. The US seemed to think they could win a war from the air. What can i say? Their level of intellgence has stayed about the same for the last 6 years, despite a change in presidency.

Gorgo · Apr 17, 2005, 09:37 am

Here's a good example. PBS still has a picture of Fikret Alic, a Bosnian Muslim who was supposedly inside a Bosnian Serb "concentration camp." Penny Marshall, from British Television station and her crew from ITN took these pictures, and never claimed that Trnopolje was a concentration camp, but this picture was circulated worldwide as proof that Milosevic was systematically exterminating Bosnians. It's still on PBS's website. This was not a concentration camp, it was a refugee camp, and Alic was not behind barbed wire, the cameraman was.

Am I smarter than PBS? No. Did they gullibly repeat a story that had no basis? Yes. The UN has never found any evidence of concentration camps. The UN has never found any evidence of mass exterminations.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...ic/atrocities/

http://zmagsite.zmag.org/Feb2003/herman0203.html

Gorgo · Apr 17, 2005, 09:38 am

Quote:

Quote by: IndieC

So, Gorgo, basically, you are saying that the newspapers lied about it.

All that I'm asking is for you to tell me exactly what those newspapers said and where they got their information. Did they verify this information, or did they just say, "The Pentagon Said....."

IndieC · Apr 17, 2005, 09:51 am

In reply to your first post, i would like to remind you that we are not talking about Bosnia, we are talking about Kosovo. Don't go off the subject.

In reply to your second post, why should i have to back up my source? If a university department, at the university which is worldly acknowledged as being the home of international politics, Aberystwyth, refers to a website, and says its good enough to quote from during an essay, i do not need to back up the sources. The lecturers who referred to it already have, and have deemed it reliable. Now, if you see yourself as more qualified than someone who holds a PhD, and is good enough to be recruited by a department which has no less than 9 out of 18 members of the teaching staff, that is to say half of the teaching staff, who are Fellows of the Royal Historical Society, then please continue with your demand for me to back up the website, but until you can prove that you are more qualified in this subject than they, all your arguments relating to the reliability of this website are completely unfounded.

Gorgo · Apr 17, 2005, 09:58 am

Quote:

Quote by: IndieC

website are completely unfounded.

Your appeal to authority is a smokescreen for your inability to back up what you say. Take one of those articles that backs up what you claim and send it to me. Otherwise, get off it. Your web site is worthless. It tells me nothing.

We are talking about the demonization of Serbs and the unwillingness of the corporate media to actually check out the stories that they publish, especially when it comes to U.S. foreign policy. This was made most clear in the run-up to the war in Iraq.

Gorgo · Apr 17, 2005, 10:03 am

Again, I am not clear on what either you Indie, or you, Chris, are claiming that disagrees with what I'm saying, and how you think you've backed it up.

Were there tens of thousands of people murdered in Serbia by the Serbians before the NATO bombing? Where is your proof? Were there tens of thousands of people exterminated by the Serbians after or during the bombing? Where is your proof, and why do you think crimes committed after the bombing justify the bombing?

It's probably my fault that we haven't clearly established what it is that we're debating, but I am asking for clear terms now. What is it that you're claiming and how do you back it up. Don't give me a web site that says, "Ethnic Cleansing 10,000 Baltimore Sun." That tells me nothing. Exactly what did the Baltimore Sun say happened, and how do they know this?

Apr 17, 2005, 07:08 am	#64 (permalink) (top)
IndieC Igneous Magma Location: UK Posts: 303	Yes Gorgo, only 2000 people died before the NATO bombings started, but how many people were displaced? Tens of thousands. You saw as i did the pictures on all the news channels, of people, Albanian and Serb, fleeing into UN safe areas within the former Yugoslavia. Unfortunately, the UN were on a peacekeeping mission, and could do nothing to stop the incursions into those safe areas. That is why they called in NATO. NATO does not have principles like the UN, NATO has the right to intervene in places, and not only keep the peace, but also enforce the peace. The legal, as i have proved to you first using the Preamble of the UN Charter, and then using Articles 1 and 2, war in Kosovo was, i will agree, carried out very badly. First and foremost, causing great destruction due to the bombing campaign, and also because the NATO forces did not disarm all sides, as anyone should know should be done in any kind of situation having the remotest resemblance to this one . I will remind you Gorgo, that Ethnic Cleansing is not necessarily killing people of a race other than you own, it is also forcing them to move from their homes, which, in Kosovo, the Serbs did quite effectively. Now, the Albanians did too, i will grant you that, but the Serbs were better equipped and had better training, so if nothing had been done, they would eventually have won, and got on with the ethnic cleansing. It is not only recently where there have been signs of this ethnic cleansing, ever since the Albanians helped fight the Christian insurgency under the Ottoman Empire in the 1800s, the Christians being the Greeks and the South Slav peoples, mainly Serbs, the Serbs have hated them, and they have hated the Serbs. Even before then, when one goes back to the battle of Kossovo, they have hated each other. I will further remind you that the UN enforced an arms embargo on the region, which meant that the superiorly armed Serbs forces had the upper hand from the beginning. I will also remind you that I, personally, never said that the NATO campaign was just in the way it was done, in fact, if you look back, i only say it was legal, and criticise it in many ways. Furthermore, your article above only says there was no genocide, i have admitted that, the numbers of deaths are not high enough, but it never says there was no ethnic cleansing. All it criticises is the enormous exaggeration of figures by authorities in the US and others, and the fact that there were claims of genocide, which i, you will recall, also admitted. The fact of the matter is, the UN deemed it necessary to have NATO intervene in the conflict, hence making the entire campaign, and the peace enforcement operation now in place, legal. Just or not it was legal, and if it was legal, it means the UN saw it happening, and decided to stop it. Now, if you want to go against primary sources, please do, by all means. If you believe the UN, the creator of international law, and a truly international organisation of which, from when i last checked, only one country, the Vatican City, is not a member, acted in an illegal way, please say so, but you will be wrong. There is no other way of putting it. "Never before in the history of warfare had destruction been so indiscriminate and universal" - makes you think of Hiroshima... -H.G. Wells, The War of the Worlds

Apr 17, 2005, 07:18 am	#65 (permalink) (top)
IndieC Igneous Magma Location: UK Posts: 303	Gorgo, if you want any sources on the Soviet Union, please see Anne Applebaum's bibliography in "Gulag". You will notice that she personally went around looking for people in the Soviet Union who saw things, and who went through these things. The only outside source is Alexander Solzhenitsyn, who managed to escape the Soviet Union. If i really wanted to, I'm sure that i could go looking in Yugoslavia, in fact i am sure people are, for people who witnessed things, eyewitness accounts etc. I'm sure that if i really wanted to, i could write a book, like Anne Applebaum did, but at the moment, i actually need to study so that i can get a job later in life, and i am also not that good at writing books so i wont. However, i have cited for you one eyewitness source, from a person i have seen and spoken to in the Serbian military. I trust his opinion, and, my mum having known him for the past four years, i think i can believe him, especially when she says to me that she would trust this man with my life. So, you have one eyewitness account which i think is refutable, but quite credible. I have no others, personally, but if i asked I'm sure i would find. "Never before in the history of warfare had destruction been so indiscriminate and universal" - makes you think of Hiroshima... -H.G. Wells, The War of the Worlds

Apr 17, 2005, 08:05 am	#71 (permalink) (top)
IndieC Igneous Magma Location: UK Posts: 303	Yes we are, in some places. There is evidence that Serbs drove Albanians out of their homes. As for large numbers, that is all relative. Compared to millions being killed in the Sudan, it is quite small, but compared to the Madrid train bombings, it is quite large. When the bombing started people of all nationalities left, yes, they did, but anyone would flee bombing like that. Bombing did make it worse for everyone, but did it make it better in the log run? We don't know yet, we are too soon after the conflict, get back to me in about ten years on that. As for the reason for the bombing, it is all stated in the UN SC Resolution as i said before, where the UN called for an international force to be deployed. Granted, the bombing was over zealous, and i doubt the UN would have endorsed it if it had known how bad it would be, but they gave the go ahead, and they had to accept it afterwards. "Never before in the history of warfare had destruction been so indiscriminate and universal" - makes you think of Hiroshima... -H.G. Wells, The War of the Worlds

Apr 17, 2005, 08:59 am	#75 (permalink) (top)
IndieC Igneous Magma Location: UK Posts: 303	So, Gorgo, basically, you are saying that the newspapers lied about it. You are saying that 5 different sources lied about the same story. These 5 different sources include the Associated Press, two American newspapers, and one Canadian newspaper. Are you saying that the Associated Press is wrong, taht it had no foundation for its news, no reasonable evidence? It is the most respected source of news after Reuters, if not the most respected. Who are you to make those accusations? Granted, there may be other sources which disagree, but i have not yet seen any which disagree with those figures. Also, the figures only reflect the deaths, not the people driven out. It is uncertain how many people were driven out of their homes, but even the lowest estimates are likely to be much higher than the 2000 you agree were killed before NATO began the bombing. On top of that, the figures only talk about Albanians who were killed, and, as you so aptly continuously point out, there were casualties on both sides, so the figures are likely to be much higher, when it comes to overall casualties. As for the NATO bombing, yes, it was justified, it was legal, but in my opinion it was carried too far. The US seemed to think they could win a war from the air. What can i say? Their level of intellgence has stayed about the same for the last 6 years, despite a change in presidency. "Never before in the history of warfare had destruction been so indiscriminate and universal" - makes you think of Hiroshima... -H.G. Wells, The War of the Worlds

Apr 17, 2005, 09:51 am	#78 (permalink) (top)
IndieC Igneous Magma Location: UK Posts: 303	In reply to your first post, i would like to remind you that we are not talking about Bosnia, we are talking about Kosovo. Don't go off the subject. In reply to your second post, why should i have to back up my source? If a university department, at the university which is worldly acknowledged as being the home of international politics, Aberystwyth, refers to a website, and says its good enough to quote from during an essay, i do not need to back up the sources. The lecturers who referred to it already have, and have deemed it reliable. Now, if you see yourself as more qualified than someone who holds a PhD, and is good enough to be recruited by a department which has no less than 9 out of 18 members of the teaching staff, that is to say half of the teaching staff, who are Fellows of the Royal Historical Society, then please continue with your demand for me to back up the website, but until you can prove that you are more qualified in this subject than they, all your arguments relating to the reliability of this website are completely unfounded. "Never before in the history of warfare had destruction been so indiscriminate and universal" - makes you think of Hiroshima... -H.G. Wells, The War of the Worlds

Apr 17, 2005, 05:16 am	#61 (permalink) (top)
Gorgo BANNED-Warned multiple times about instigating. User then reported topics multiple times to mess with staff. Posts: 4,412	Recent sources for whatever it is that you're claiming happened, please? I'm not clear on what you are claiming. Where are recent sources for mass graves which show anything other than what I've said. Where are the thousands of people in mass graves that died because of some policy of genocide of the Yugoslavian government. If you are claiming "ethnic cleansing," please define that and show recent sources that show this happened. Again, there was a war going on that was sparked by NATO countries, mostly Germany. People died, crimes occurred on all sides. Where is the evidence of a policy of genocide?

Apr 17, 2005, 05:32 am	#62 (permalink) (top)
Gorgo BANNED-Warned multiple times about instigating. User then reported topics multiple times to mess with staff. Posts: 4,412	Maybe it would help if I posted this. Does anyone have any disagreement with any of this? http://www.michaelparenti.org/yugoslavia.html "Up until the bombings began in March 1999, the conflict in Kosovo had taken 2000 lives altogether from both sides, according to Kosovo Albanian sources. Yugoslavian sources had put the figure at 800. In either case, such casualties reveal a limited insurgency, not genocide. The forced expulsion policy began after the NATO bombings, with thousands being uprooted by Serb forces mostly in areas where the KLA was operating or was suspected of operating. In addition, if the unconfirmed reports by the ethnic Albanian refugees can be believed, there was much plundering and instances of summary execution by Serbian paramilitary forces -- who were unleashed after the NATO bombing started. We should keep in mind that tens of thousands fled Kosovo because of the bombings, or because the province was the scene of sustained ground fighting between Yugoslav forces and the KLA, or because they were just afraid and hungry. An Albanian woman crossing into Macedonia was eagerly asked by a news crew if she had been forced out by Serb police. She responded: "There were no Serbs. We were frightened of the [NATO] bombs."21 During the bombings, an estimated 70,000 to 100,000 Serbian residents of Kosovo took flight (mostly north but some to the south), as did thousands of Roma and other non-Albanian ethnic groups.22 Were these people ethnically cleansing themselves? Or were they not fleeing the bombing and the ground war? The New York Times reported that "a major purpose of the NATO effort is to end the Serb atrocities that drove more than one million Albanians from their homes."23 So, we are told to believe, the refugee tide was caused not by the ground war against the KLA and not by the massive NATO bombing but by unspecified atrocities. The bombing, which was the major cause of the refugee problem was now seen as the solution. The refugee problem created in part by the massive aerial attacks was now treated as justification for such attacks, a way of putting pressure on Milosevic to allow "the safe return of ethnic Albanian refugees."24 While Kosovo Albanians were leaving in great numbers -- usually well-clothed and in good health, some riding their tractors, trucks, or cars, many of them young men of recruitment age -- they were described as being "slaughtered." Serbian attacks on KLA strongholds and the forced expulsion of Albanian villagers were described as "genocide." But experts in surveillance photography and wartime propaganda charged NATO with running a "propaganda campaign" on Kosovo that lacked any supporting evidence. State Department reports of mass graves and of 100,000 to 500,000 missing Albanian men "are just ludicrous," according to these independent critics.25 "

Apr 17, 2005, 07:54 am	#70 (permalink) (top)
Gorgo BANNED-Warned multiple times about instigating. User then reported topics multiple times to mess with staff. Posts: 4,412	It seems we are not in disagreement except in numbers. There is no evidence, except after the war started, that the Serbs drove Albanians out of the country in any kind of large numbers. During the war, they drove some out of "KLA-infested" areas. Most of the people that left of all nationalities, left because of the bombing. There is no evidence of state-sponsored large scale "ethnic cleansing" or genocide before the bombing. There was no reason for the bombing, and the bombing made things worse for everyone, and the current situation is much worse than the situation before the bombing. Are we in disagreement here?

Apr 17, 2005, 08:36 am	#73 (permalink) (top)
Gorgo BANNED-Warned multiple times about instigating. User then reported topics multiple times to mess with staff. Posts: 4,412	Again, this is some web site that IndieC found after about 60 seconds of research that says that certain newspaper articles said something. Where are those articles and what did they say and who is their source? From what I see, these articles are claiming that 2,000 were "ethnically cleansed" before the bombing. Which means that 2,000 people were driven out of their homes? So, you think this justifies killing thousands of people, including the people that NATO was supposed to be protecting, and destroying civilian infrastructure? Again, I fail to see your point. There is no reasonable evidence that 10,000 people were "driven" from their homes by Serbs during the bombing. Large numbers of people left because of the bombing. Some were driven from their homes wrongly, and some were driven out because they were enemy combatants or working with enemy combatants. Or rather, criminals who were attacking the legal Yugoslavian government. What exactly are you disagreeing with me on, and where are recent sources which give reasonable evidence of what you are claiming?

Apr 17, 2005, 09:37 am	#76 (permalink) (top)
Gorgo BANNED-Warned multiple times about instigating. User then reported topics multiple times to mess with staff. Posts: 4,412	Here's a good example. PBS still has a picture of Fikret Alic, a Bosnian Muslim who was supposedly inside a Bosnian Serb "concentration camp." Penny Marshall, from British Television station and her crew from ITN took these pictures, and never claimed that Trnopolje was a concentration camp, but this picture was circulated worldwide as proof that Milosevic was systematically exterminating Bosnians. It's still on PBS's website. This was not a concentration camp, it was a refugee camp, and Alic was not behind barbed wire, the cameraman was. Am I smarter than PBS? No. Did they gullibly repeat a story that had no basis? Yes. The UN has never found any evidence of concentration camps. The UN has never found any evidence of mass exterminations. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...ic/atrocities/ http://zmagsite.zmag.org/Feb2003/herman0203.html

Apr 17, 2005, 10:03 am	#80 (permalink) (top)
Gorgo BANNED-Warned multiple times about instigating. User then reported topics multiple times to mess with staff. Posts: 4,412	Again, I am not clear on what either you Indie, or you, Chris, are claiming that disagrees with what I'm saying, and how you think you've backed it up. Were there tens of thousands of people murdered in Serbia by the Serbians before the NATO bombing? Where is your proof? Were there tens of thousands of people exterminated by the Serbians after or during the bombing? Where is your proof, and why do you think crimes committed after the bombing justify the bombing? It's probably my fault that we haven't clearly established what it is that we're debating, but I am asking for clear terms now. What is it that you're claiming and how do you back it up. Don't give me a web site that says, "Ethnic Cleansing 10,000 Baltimore Sun." That tells me nothing. Exactly what did the Baltimore Sun say happened, and how do they know this?