Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Villin221 · Feb 1, 2005, 07:56 pm

University of Colorado professor Ward Churchill is coming under fire for an essay he did in 2001. He says, among other things, that the 9/11 disaster was an act of victims lashing out at their oppressors. He also said that the people killed in the World Trade Center were not vicitms at all but valid military targets because they work in America and therefore are part of the machine that oppresses the rest of the world, making them the real bad guys. He also said that the evil Yuppies of America who have the audacity to be succesful are "Little Eichmanns" who apprently represent everything that is evil in the world. Yikes.

Obviously, professor Churchill is an idealist. However, Ideology is not truth. It's wishful thinking. Idealists take the truth and run it through a filter of abstract self-righteous belief systems until it feels more comfortable to them. I have heard that radicalism is necessary to facilitate change. Well I say, what's wrong with the truth? Mr. Churchill compared the victims of 9/11 to Nazis. Is that truth? Does working for a living in America make you a fascist? If so, then he's also talking about me, because I also work for a living in America. I have a feeling Professor Churchill receives a paycheck for being a professor. I'm not totally sure, maybe he works for free. But let's just say for a moment that he does get paid, those paychecks come from the State. Our evil Police State. So by his logic, assuming that what he says is true, he must also be a Nazi. Or maybe his rules just don't apply to him. If I had known that every white, working person in America was a Nazi, I would have quit my job and become homeless. Maybe then, smart people like Professor Churchill wouldn't think I was a fascist anymore. Maybe he'd think I was just another victim of those evil people with jobs. Geez, I sure hope so.

It's too bad I'm only just now finding out that making a living in America causes children to be slaughtered or that financial success makes you a valid military target. The idea seems abstract and completely ridiculous to most people, but most people are stupid, right Professor? If only we would open our minds and learn how to be tolerant, we would also see that our lives exist solely to create misery for others. Talk about being born into sin. Oh wait, that was almost a Christian comment, how insensitive of me. I've already committed two war crimes today and it's not even noon yet.

If these revelations spoken by Mr. Churchill are indeed the truth, then I must be really ignorant. Are the suicide attackers that slammed into the World Trade Center really just victims of American Imperialism who have no other choice but to punish us for committing the horrible sin of working? Did they commit this act because they too, believed that everyone in that building was a Nazi? I thought their word for it was Infidel. Maybe Infidel really means Nazi in Arabic. Al Qaeda claims their war is a holy war but Mr. Churchill seems to think it's a political war. I'm so confused. And now this intellectually superior man has labeled me and everyone I know an "Eichmann". Oh no! What am I gonna do now? Mr. Churchill's IQ is certainly higher than mine, so maybe I should just take his word for it. Afterall, he's a professor.

RickSp · Feb 1, 2005, 08:06 pm

Quote:

Obviously, professor Churchill is an idealist.

Idealist? Asshole would be the word I would choose, but that's just me. A leftist flake who considers civilians to be "valid military target" has a lot in common with the neo-cons.

Scribbler1 · Feb 1, 2005, 08:26 pm

That's free speech for you.

I don't see this bird making a lot of friends with that crap. Certainly a few enemies.

tinybear · Feb 2, 2005, 12:48 am

Well Professor Churchill has a right to say whatever he sees fit. We also have the right to condemn what he says.

giuliano · Feb 2, 2005, 04:01 am

i agree with the sentiment of what the prof says. just because you are a civilian doesn't absolve you from responsibility for the actions of your govt, when it is democratically elected.

the problem with citizens of democratic nations is that they fail to recognise that authority goes hand-in-hand with responsibility.

democracy gives you a degree of authority, but no one will admit that with that comes responsibility!

declaring the victims of 9/11 responsible for their own deaths is a separate matter.

mr.perfecto · Feb 2, 2005, 05:24 am

Why does the type of government matter? If we are going to start thinking along those lines, it seems to me that if you would standby and allow another person to be killed (essentially rating your life higher than theirs,) how could you then say them doing the same is wrong?

I guess it's best to just abandon that line of thought altogether.

giuliano · Feb 2, 2005, 05:35 am

but the point was that north korean citizens can't be held directly responsible for kim il whoever's decision to kill people, while voting citizens in the west are more responsible for their own govt's actions.

north koreans really have little choice but to stand by and watch... deviating from that strategy is dangerous to their health.

mr.perfecto · Feb 2, 2005, 05:55 am

Well, it was either the citizens own government killing them for resisting or their enemies killing them to save themselves. How exactly is one to objective judge relative degrees of responsibility? If you ever vote, anything they do is your fault?

If a person living in a democratic country can be guilty by association, a person living in an undemocratic country can be also.

tinybear · Feb 2, 2005, 05:59 am

Quote:

Quote by: giuliano

i agree with the sentiment of what the prof says. just because you are a civilian doesn't absolve you from responsibility for the actions of your govt, when it is democratically elected.

the problem with citizens of democratic nations is that they fail to recognise that authority goes hand-in-hand with responsibility.

democracy gives you a degree of authority, but no one will admit that with that comes responsibility!

declaring the victims of 9/11 responsible for their own deaths is a separate matter.

I bet there were a lot of people who died in the WTC Towers who either did not vote for or did not have the right to vote for the US Government of the day. I can't see how they can be 'valid military targets'.

tinybear · Feb 2, 2005, 06:00 am

Quote:

Quote by: giuliano

but the point was that north korean citizens can't be held directly responsible for kim il whoever's decision to kill people, while voting citizens in the west are more responsible for their own govt's actions.

north koreans really have little choice but to stand by and watch... deviating from that strategy is dangerous to their health.

They do have a choice. They can revolt.

giuliano · Feb 2, 2005, 06:05 am

that's not a choice made by the individual.

**Matt W** · Feb 2, 2005, 06:06 am

Right....love your definition of 'choice', tb - when the revolution comes, let's see you in the front rank. :-P

**Pooeypants** · Feb 2, 2005, 06:22 am

Quote:

Quote by: tinybear

They do have a choice. They can revolt.

And die in their thousands? What kind of logic is that?

tinybear · Feb 2, 2005, 06:48 am

Well, it's a choice, ain't it?

**Matt W** · Feb 2, 2005, 06:54 am

What, as opposed to ticking a piece of paper to figure out who represents you? Not really, no.

tinybear · Feb 2, 2005, 06:59 am

As opposed to doing nothing or sneaking into some foreign embassy in search of political asylum.

**Matt W** · Feb 2, 2005, 07:06 am

Indeed. That's a choice that doesn't involve potential death. To revolt successfully requires several people making that very same choice. To run or do nothing is an individual choice, as is the choice to vote.

**Pooeypants** · Feb 2, 2005, 07:40 am

Quote:

Quote by: tinybear

As opposed to doing nothing or sneaking into some foreign embassy in search of political asylum.

So you're telling me that their choice to revolt and get killed is comparable to our choice to go into a polling booth?
I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense.

Gorgo · Feb 2, 2005, 08:17 am

Villin do you have any links at all? Where is the essay? Where are the news links about his resignation?

Gorgo · Feb 2, 2005, 08:22 am

http://www.colorado.edu/news/releases/2005/44.html
http://www.colorado.edu/EthnicStudie...ll_013105.html

Feb 1, 2005, 07:56 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
Villin221 Molten Ash Posts: 30	The Truth is not Politically Correct University of Colorado professor Ward Churchill is coming under fire for an essay he did in 2001. He says, among other things, that the 9/11 disaster was an act of victims lashing out at their oppressors. He also said that the people killed in the World Trade Center were not vicitms at all but valid military targets because they work in America and therefore are part of the machine that oppresses the rest of the world, making them the real bad guys. He also said that the evil Yuppies of America who have the audacity to be succesful are "Little Eichmanns" who apprently represent everything that is evil in the world. Yikes. Obviously, professor Churchill is an idealist. However, Ideology is not truth. It's wishful thinking. Idealists take the truth and run it through a filter of abstract self-righteous belief systems until it feels more comfortable to them. I have heard that radicalism is necessary to facilitate change. Well I say, what's wrong with the truth? Mr. Churchill compared the victims of 9/11 to Nazis. Is that truth? Does working for a living in America make you a fascist? If so, then he's also talking about me, because I also work for a living in America. I have a feeling Professor Churchill receives a paycheck for being a professor. I'm not totally sure, maybe he works for free. But let's just say for a moment that he does get paid, those paychecks come from the State. Our evil Police State. So by his logic, assuming that what he says is true, he must also be a Nazi. Or maybe his rules just don't apply to him. If I had known that every white, working person in America was a Nazi, I would have quit my job and become homeless. Maybe then, smart people like Professor Churchill wouldn't think I was a fascist anymore. Maybe he'd think I was just another victim of those evil people with jobs. Geez, I sure hope so. It's too bad I'm only just now finding out that making a living in America causes children to be slaughtered or that financial success makes you a valid military target. The idea seems abstract and completely ridiculous to most people, but most people are stupid, right Professor? If only we would open our minds and learn how to be tolerant, we would also see that our lives exist solely to create misery for others. Talk about being born into sin. Oh wait, that was almost a Christian comment, how insensitive of me. I've already committed two war crimes today and it's not even noon yet. If these revelations spoken by Mr. Churchill are indeed the truth, then I must be really ignorant. Are the suicide attackers that slammed into the World Trade Center really just victims of American Imperialism who have no other choice but to punish us for committing the horrible sin of working? Did they commit this act because they too, believed that everyone in that building was a Nazi? I thought their word for it was Infidel. Maybe Infidel really means Nazi in Arabic. Al Qaeda claims their war is a holy war but Mr. Churchill seems to think it's a political war. I'm so confused. And now this intellectually superior man has labeled me and everyone I know an "Eichmann". Oh no! What am I gonna do now? Mr. Churchill's IQ is certainly higher than mine, so maybe I should just take his word for it. Afterall, he's a professor.

Feb 2, 2005, 04:01 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
giuliano Tres COOL Location: melbourne australia Posts: 819	i agree with the sentiment of what the prof says. just because you are a civilian doesn't absolve you from responsibility for the actions of your govt, when it is democratically elected. the problem with citizens of democratic nations is that they fail to recognise that authority goes hand-in-hand with responsibility. democracy gives you a degree of authority, but no one will admit that with that comes responsibility! declaring the victims of 9/11 responsible for their own deaths is a separate matter. sheik's progressive islam online* *with editorials by bishop

Feb 2, 2005, 05:35 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
giuliano Tres COOL Location: melbourne australia Posts: 819	but the point was that north korean citizens can't be held directly responsible for kim il whoever's decision to kill people, while voting citizens in the west are more responsible for their own govt's actions. north koreans really have little choice but to stand by and watch... deviating from that strategy is dangerous to their health. sheik's progressive islam online* *with editorials by bishop

Feb 2, 2005, 06:05 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
giuliano Tres COOL Location: melbourne australia Posts: 819	that's not a choice made by the individual. sheik's progressive islam online* *with editorials by bishop

Feb 1, 2005, 08:26 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,836	That's free speech for you. I don't see this bird making a lot of friends with that crap. Certainly a few enemies.

Feb 2, 2005, 12:48 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 7,333	Well Professor Churchill has a right to say whatever he sees fit. We also have the right to condemn what he says.

Feb 2, 2005, 05:24 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
mr.perfecto Igneous Magma Posts: 632	Why does the type of government matter? If we are going to start thinking along those lines, it seems to me that if you would standby and allow another person to be killed (essentially rating your life higher than theirs,) how could you then say them doing the same is wrong? I guess it's best to just abandon that line of thought altogether.

Feb 2, 2005, 05:55 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
mr.perfecto Igneous Magma Posts: 632	Well, it was either the citizens own government killing them for resisting or their enemies killing them to save themselves. How exactly is one to objective judge relative degrees of responsibility? If you ever vote, anything they do is your fault? If a person living in a democratic country can be guilty by association, a person living in an undemocratic country can be also.

Feb 2, 2005, 06:06 am	#12 (permalink) (top)
Matt W Moderator Location: Reading, UK. Posts: 7,197	Right....love your definition of 'choice', tb - when the revolution comes, let's see you in the front rank. :-P

Feb 2, 2005, 06:48 am	#14 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 7,333	Well, it's a choice, ain't it?

Feb 2, 2005, 06:54 am	#15 (permalink) (top)
Matt W Moderator Location: Reading, UK. Posts: 7,197	What, as opposed to ticking a piece of paper to figure out who represents you? Not really, no.

Feb 2, 2005, 06:59 am	#16 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 7,333	As opposed to doing nothing or sneaking into some foreign embassy in search of political asylum.

Feb 2, 2005, 07:06 am	#17 (permalink) (top)
Matt W Moderator Location: Reading, UK. Posts: 7,197	Indeed. That's a choice that doesn't involve potential death. To revolt successfully requires several people making that very same choice. To run or do nothing is an individual choice, as is the choice to vote.

Feb 2, 2005, 08:17 am	#19 (permalink) (top)
Gorgo BANNED-Warned multiple times about instigating. User then reported topics multiple times to mess with staff. Posts: 4,412	Villin do you have any links at all? Where is the essay? Where are the news links about his resignation?

Feb 2, 2005, 08:22 am	#20 (permalink) (top)
Gorgo BANNED-Warned multiple times about instigating. User then reported topics multiple times to mess with staff. Posts: 4,412	http://www.colorado.edu/news/releases/2005/44.html http://www.colorado.edu/EthnicStudie...ll_013105.html