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Thread: How Can We Sustainably Make Government Live Within Its Means?

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    An Analyst& A Gadfly Yarn's Avatar
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    How Can We Sustainably Make Government Live Within Its Means?

    When the US housing superbubble popped, the entire world looked as though it might head into a Great Depression. This was averted, however it did cause a Great Recession that sped up many pre-existing problems. Amongst these was unsustainable acretion of national debts. Automatic and deliberate spending increases resulting from the Great Recession ballooned national debts. These, if allowed to grow to too great a size, have the capacity to cause a crisis, most conspicuously at present exploding in Greece. Because Greece is a small country, its effect as a contagion is relatively managaeble compared to what is likely to erupt in the event that a large nation, say Italy or even the US, undergoes a similar transformation. In fact, if Greece didn't have the euro, it is small enough that it might not have been important. However, large countries are either way.

    The US may again reak havoc on the world economy, or else it may have its favor from 08 repaid to it, if the US government and governments of other large or numerous nations fail to solve this problem before it is too late.

    The problem is perpetual large deficits. When a deficit exceeds GDP growth and inflation, it increases the real size of the national debt. In the short term, this diverts investment capital from the private sector by having the government compete with it for credit. In the long term, it breeds dependency upon credit to fund a large portion of government spending. This spending breeds dependency upon credit and comes to fund a significant portion of government activities. At the same time, it piles up interest payments which come to form a large portion of the entire national budget. This can go on for only so long before credit becomes more expensive as the government is seen to be a less and less reliable debtor. Eventually, interest rates skyrocket, borrowing becomes impossibly expensive, and the only way out is default or hyperinflation. This, along with the crisises of confidence, cause the economy to go into meltdown, further reducing revenues, thus melting away at both the government and private sector.

    It is one thing to argue about whether or not government should be bigger, but either way it is clear that perpetual large deficits are unsustainable. And it is also clear that democracy naturally trends towards them until the extent of the problems caused by them are huge and obvious because people otherwise, with their votes, reward spending and punish taxing. Even countries generally considered exceptionally responsible, like Germany, have enormous national debts.

    There are however obvious solutions to this general problem. One is to adopt the regional solution at the national level:

    Every US state other than Vermont has some form of balanced budget amendment; the precise form varies. Indiana has a state debt prohibition with an exception for "temporary and casual deficits," but no balanced budget requirement. It has around $18 billion in outstanding state debt. The governor is not legally required to submit a balanced budget, the legislature is not required to approve appropriations that are within available revenue, and the state is not required to end the year in balance.[10] An unusual variant is the Oregon kicker, which bans surpluses of more than 2% of revenue by refunding the money to the taxpayers. Keynesian economists such as Paul Krugman have argued that state-level balanced budget amendments worsened the late-2000s recession by forcing states to cut services in the middle of a slump.[11]
    Balanced budget amendment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    A more complicated, but potentially more ideal, solution would be to write up an amendment that prohibits deficits during good and mediocre economic times, but allows them during bad economic times. Although large deficits are unsustainable if they are perpetual, they are easily sustainable and justifiable if they are only occasional.

    The most complicated solution would be to create a Federal Reserve-type entity that would determine when deficits were and were not prohibited and which would be sufficiently insulated from the electorate as to not let the electorate corrupt it with perpetual demands for more cake today at the expense of tomorrow.

    All of these basically function like regulations do in general in that they aim to prevent abuse, but in the process of doing so inevitably create some amount of waste that may or may not be justified by the benefit accrued by preventing abuses. The looser the regulation is, the more likely it is fail in its intended purpose but also the less unintended waste it will cause.

    At any rate, chronic budget problems are not insoluble, they just require a bold binding solution. The GOP has talked about this, but they've messed it up by throwing in alongside this measures acceptable to them but unacceptable to liberals-like constitutional tax and government size caps. What would really be ideal is if they offered a short-term compromise on tax issues in exchange for further spending cuts and a balanced budget amendment that takes effect within the next 5-10 years and which doesn't carry any strings to it that only conservatives can appreciate. If the elected representative want bigger government or tax cuts fine; just don't do it on credit cards.

    So those are my ideas, the general question is What solutions can we apply that, given human nature, are likely to work and stick?

    Last edited by Yarn; 6th February 2012 at 08:03 PM.
    "The day we stop exploring is the day we commit ourselves to live in a stagnant world, devoid of curiosity, empty of dreams."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FMNFvKEy4c

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    Lobotomized Angry Citizen's Avatar
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    Simple. Social democratic revolution. "Germany" is absolutely not a responsible debtor; Sweden, however, is.

    A man said to the universe:
    "Sir, I exist!"
    "However," replied the universe,
    "The fact has not created in me
    A sense of obligation."


    -- Stephen Crane

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    An Analyst& A Gadfly Yarn's Avatar
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    How many Swedens are there? If there are almost none, is it some sort of statistical fluke? If not, how exactly would we replicate it?

    Would this replication involve the juxtaposition of cold weather, hot blondes, meatballs, heavy metal, and 200 years of consecutive peace?

    "The day we stop exploring is the day we commit ourselves to live in a stagnant world, devoid of curiosity, empty of dreams."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FMNFvKEy4c

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    Lobotomized Angry Citizen's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Yarn View Post
    How many Swedens are there? If there are almost none, is it some sort of statistical fluke? If not, how exactly would we replicate it?

    Would this replication involve the juxtaposition of cold weather, hot blondes, meatballs, and heavy metal?
    Perhaps, because Norwegians (48.9% GDP), Finns (48.3%), and Danes (43.7%) all match up nicely with Sweden (39.7%). The common thread is, the more socially democratic you are, the less debt you have. As an aside, Scandinavia + Finland have a combined population of approximately 25 million. That's significant.

    A man said to the universe:
    "Sir, I exist!"
    "However," replied the universe,
    "The fact has not created in me
    A sense of obligation."


    -- Stephen Crane

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    An Analyst& A Gadfly Yarn's Avatar
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    Supposing we went this route, how would we go about it?

    "The day we stop exploring is the day we commit ourselves to live in a stagnant world, devoid of curiosity, empty of dreams."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FMNFvKEy4c

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    Lobotomized Angry Citizen's Avatar
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    Raise taxes on the rich, nationalize half the economy (I say start with banks and the pharmaceutical industries), educate the public on the rights of democracy, remove restrictions on forming and maintaining unions (Scandinavia has an enormous unionization right), ban corporate influence in politics, ban political advertisements - stuff like that.

    A man said to the universe:
    "Sir, I exist!"
    "However," replied the universe,
    "The fact has not created in me
    A sense of obligation."


    -- Stephen Crane

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    Seek truth Apeman81's Avatar
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    The people can rise up and demand balanced budgets.

    They can remove from office those who do not create them.

    States could agree to amend the constitution to enforce it.

    But this is difficult while we allow government to maintain a patronage over nearly half the citizens through direct and indirect subsistence support. Those who depend upon government demand no decrease in "entitlements". Those who pay no effective income tax, or indeed profit from credits, desire no decrease in the largess.

    If the people of this country truly desire to see this patronage continue, let the government do what is necessary to actually pay for it. Without this, they will continue to perpetrate the lie by promising more than it can afford. This lie has, and continues to, lead us to financial ruin.

    Please save the "its for a good cause" responses. They are non sequitor. If you want it, pay for it.

    The tree of liberty is hungry. Let's feed it well in the next election.

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    Word Bearer Senor Hoint's Avatar
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    In the context of the debt, perhaps the most destructive idea is that consistently cutting taxes while maintaining or increasing spending is sound policy.

    It's very simple. Revenues need to rise and/or spending needs to fall.

    Simply getting rid of government transfer payments will only exacerbate the problem. Simple macroeconomics, reduction in government spending results in a corresponding reduction in GDP, which will in fact make the budget situation significantly worse.

    But truth, Hajjaj was convinced, held many layers.

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    An Analyst& A Gadfly Yarn's Avatar
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    Apeman81:

    The people can rise up and demand balanced budgets.

    They can remove from office those who do not create them.
    That is all fine and good, but it is difficult when neither party has proven trustworthy. At anyrate, everyone in this thread has voiced opposition to chronic large deficits, so it doesn't seem our position is controversial to intellectuals.

    When it comes to deficit reductions, I don't think we should accept promises unless they specify how. What spending will you cut? What taxes will you raise? Rhetoric is cheap.

    States could agree to amend the constitution to enforce it.
    Agreed.

    Those who pay no effective income tax, or indeed profit from credits, desire no decrease in the largess.
    I would point out that even the very poor pay social security and medicare tax, meaning that although they are getting back more than they are putting in (which is kinda of the point when it comes to humanitarian programs), they do contribute revenue to the federal budget.

    "The day we stop exploring is the day we commit ourselves to live in a stagnant world, devoid of curiosity, empty of dreams."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FMNFvKEy4c

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    Hot Lava crimethinker's Avatar
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    Quote Quote by: Yarn View Post
    When it comes to deficit reductions, I don't think we should accept promises unless they specify how. What spending will you cut? What taxes will you raise? Rhetoric is cheap.
    God but it is. I wish they weren't so easily manipulated by rhetoric, and on top of that the volume of rhetoric, but the majority of people work very hard to make a living (now more than ever in the US), and likely spend the rest of their time with their family, or watching TV in a lethargic state. When they turn to politics, they don't have the sophistication to know what policies underpin the rhetoric or care. When polled on the specific policies, though, they tend to come out more liberal than conservative, and that's before extensive education on them.

    My own thoughts:

    All of this makes it easier for selfish interests, including Congress itself, to capture our political system. They have the self-interest and economy of scale to get taxes lowered to levels absurd by historical and modern standards.

    We know what the solutions are...

    Remove the influence of money and the profit-motive from the political system. This is a tough one, because while a vast majority oppose Citizens United, and I believed unlimited individual donations, the political system doesn't care because they don't serve the people and aren't elected by them except superficially.

    Raise taxes on the wealthy. They've been on the downturn in the US for all of post-WWII history. Discussions of "class warfare" are quite helpful in this respect. That's what I'm talking about. For starters, set the top income tax rate at 39.6% (pre Bush) and the capital gains tax at 30%.

    Cut military spending by a third to one half (my own preference), end the War on Drugs (not only does it cost a lot of money for no benefit to society, but it creates additional costs), and reform many other areas. Not being a legislator, I don't know all the areas that need reforming, but I'm sure there are many.

    (The neoconservative alternative, as far as I can tell, is to implement a heavily regressive tax system and nuke all social spending so that government consists of bombing brown people abroad and enslaving them at home. Conservatives like Jon Huntsman and Buddy Roemer offer more helpful input, but we saw how well that went.)

    The hard part is enacting these solutions. We need better education and greater democratic participation. Occupy tried to do this, but the power-structure came down on them, and it looks (to me) like they're not getting back up.

    I'm not sure what else is on the horizon, but if polls are any indication, Obama has done fairly well in persuading people that he's better for the country than the Republicans. In his game of political 3-dimensional chess, maybe the second term will be better than the first. We can only hope.

    Obama's incremental change can help, but when he goes in 2013 or 2017, I can only see the Republicans, and to be fair potentially more "moderate" Republicans, whatever that means in this country, charging in and wrecking the place. I think we need more foundational change than Obama can offer, but the liberal revolution we (or I) thought might lead to that has failed.

    In summary, in the short term I think we need nothing short of a "social democratic revolution" as AC said, but this has already failed and probably will again. The long term is more encouraging, because the country will liberalize whatever we do. The problem, to me, then, is that these liberals might not be Western Europe's kind. They seem more apathetic, less interested in democracy (and thus government accountability), than Europe's, so we might actually get the corrupt welfare state the conservatives are always going on about. Or any of a million things can happen and change the country's direction.

    For a void without a question is just perverse.

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    An Analyst& A Gadfly Yarn's Avatar
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    crimethinker:

    The neoconservative alternative, as far as I can tell, is to implement a heavily regressive tax system and nuke all social spending
    But is that really their alternative? They would have to cut loads from senior entitlements, and without the support of seniors the Republican party is incapable of being a dominant force in American politics.

    I suspect that they wouldn't actually make cuts adequate to neutralize, much less exceed, their promised tax cuts, but that they would go ahead and make these tax cuts anyway.

    so that government consists of bombing brown people abroad and enslaving them at home.
    Slavery is an exageratory term, and given their like of Herman Cain, I think it is also dubious to accuse the right of racism. But there is a thread for that which I haven't bothered with because it seems too inconcrete.

    "The day we stop exploring is the day we commit ourselves to live in a stagnant world, devoid of curiosity, empty of dreams."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FMNFvKEy4c

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    Word Bearer Senor Hoint's Avatar
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    The right's incidental racism is more a result of the fact that they don't like poor people, and non-white pepole tend to be poor.

    But truth, Hajjaj was convinced, held many layers.

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