Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

gr8fuldaniel · Jan 24, 2005, 02:22 pm

Catholic Church Breaks Commandment, to make political statement.
Auburn Journal

Quote:

Statue turns heads on abortion anniversary

By: Ryan Sabalow, Journal Staff Writer
Thursday, January 20, 2005 11:36 PM PST
Today, the 27-year anniversary of the U.S. Supreme Court's Roe v. Wade decision and a bronze statue of a life-sized Jesus holding a fetus on Atwood Road are turning heads.

The statue, titled "The Memorial to the Unborn," sits in front of St. Teresa Avila Catholic Church on Atwood Road and was installed in November by the Grand Knights of Columbus.

Quote:

Quote by: The Bible

"Thou shaft have no graven images" (Exodus 20:4)

The nerve of these transgressors who make exceptions for their own sin, while preventing others who are innocent, from standing before God.

They make a sweeping judgement against abortion even when the mothers life is in danger, the mother is a child and/or a victim of incest or rape. If the child is deformed or handicapped, a drug baby.

Should they be allowed to put this statue in view of the public?

Quote:

Kristine Lang McDonald, former Democratic candidate for the District 1 state Senate seat, said since the statue was placed on private property the church has every right to display the statue.

Are we allowed to put Statues of Catholic Priests performing oral sex on children in our front yard?
Thats private property.
Enlighten me.

Milton Bradley · Jan 24, 2005, 04:48 pm

Quote:

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel

Are we allowed to put Statues of Catholic Priests performing oral sex on children in our front yard?
Thats private property.
Enlighten me.

OK, but you asked for it.

Religeon is bogus. A dream. A lie.

Therefore, let them have their fantasy, andd inform those you love to steer clear of their fantasy, lest they become involved in it.

RickSp · Jan 24, 2005, 05:21 pm

Ah gr8tfuk, regarding those graven images, if they applied the standard that you seem to infer from the line of scripture, the Catholic Church would have to pull down every cathedral in Europe and one or two in the US.

Why shouldn't a private group be allowed to express their views on their own property? I happen to find many aspects of the Catholic Church to be odious, but as long as they do not force their views on me, I shouldn't be able to force my views on them.

SlySpy · Jan 24, 2005, 05:37 pm

RickSp, is anyone here forcing their views on the catholic church?
This is an observation of an instance of a Catholic church's hypocrisy. One can't respectfully condone the ten commandments in one case, yet break a commandment in another.

RickSp · Jan 24, 2005, 05:58 pm

Quote:

Quote by: SlySpy

RickSp, is anyone here forcing their views on the catholic church?
This is an observation of an instance of a Catholic church's hypocrisy. One can't respectfully condone the ten commandments in one case, yet break a commandment in another.

Even if the Catholic Church is being hypocritcal, so what? Is an unattractive statue on private property something that is anyone's business except the property owners? I don't happen to agree with Gr8's interpretaion of scripture, so in this case I'm not sure the Church is being hypocrical.

I happen to think that it is literally criminal how the heirarchy of the Church actively protected pedophile priests for years. I think several Bishops should be doing serious jail time for their crimes. Compared to that an ugly statue doesn't bother me much.

The Dunedan · Jan 24, 2005, 06:05 pm

The "Graven Images" stricture is not a commandment of its' own; rather it is a corrolary ro Commandment 1 which Protestants sometimes erroneously seperate. The full, correct text is:

"Thos shalt have no Gods before Me, nor make unto thee any graven image to bow down and worship it." or something to that near effect. The commandment against "graven images" is a specific commandment against Idolatry; it is not a general prohibition against the making of statues. Recall that God commanded the Israelites to have statues of Cherubim atop the Ark Of The Covenant, and that the Great Basin of Solomon's temple was supported by a dozen bronze oxen.

bishop · Jan 24, 2005, 06:49 pm

the statue aims to be a veneration of christ, but the political manipulation is worrisome.. statues have been made of christ on the cross... paintings of the last supper. decorations of baby jesus at christmas time.. i don't believe i've ever seen christ's image manipulated for political purposes.

i'm not exactly sure if this is a veneration. a purist would say that it's a defilement. while i like to stay away from the subject, this strays close to some of the passages in revelations. i think present-day christians (specifically evangelicals and charismatics) are definitely using religion for political goals, and i see that practice as being both spiritually as well as politically dangerous.

RickSp · Jan 24, 2005, 07:01 pm

Quote:

Quote by: bishop

the statue aims to be a veneration of christ, but the political manipulation is worrisome.. statues have been made of christ on the cross... paintings of the last supper. decorations of baby jesus at christmas time.. i don't believe i've ever seen christ's image manipulated for political purposes.

i'm not exactly sure if this is a veneration. a purist would say that it's a defilement. while i like to stay away from the subject, this strays close to some of the passages in revelations. i think present-day christians (specifically evangelicals and charismatics) are definitely using religion for political goals, and i see that practice as being both spiritually as well as politically dangerous.

You can buy a soccer playing Jesus, a skiing Jesus or a rollerblading Jesus. A defilement or an action figure? I don't. Not sure I care. Jesus and the gynamstic kids worries me. The placement of his hands might be suspect.

bishop · Jan 24, 2005, 07:07 pm

Quote:

You can buy a soccer playing Jesus, a skiing Jesus or a rollerblading Jesus.

i think that shows how much attention i pay to these topics. i also said using jesus's image for political purposes, not for commercial purposes - which imo, clearly represents greed.

The Dunedan · Jan 24, 2005, 07:13 pm

Bishop
You have to realize that;

1: We Catholics take the abotion issue very seriously and very sorrowfully. It is a horribly hurtful thing, to our understanding, that we do the Unborn in this country. You see, in Catholic Theology, every Sin ever committed was borne by Jesus when He was crucified. As a consequence, every Sin which -is- or has been committed amplified His physical and emotiona anguish on Passion Friday. For us, Abortion at any stage is nothing less than a heinous crime, the murder of a defenseless person. We oppose such murders in all cases; this is why we oppose Abortion, involuntary Euthenasia, and Capital Punishment as well.

2: The Catholic Church has a right to say whatever it likes, however it likes. The laws of God, which command us to speak out against injustice and cruelty, are not subject to the laws of Man. Tax the Church if you want; we will not cease to speak against this horrible practice, or its' corrolaries in the Culture Of Death. I've noticed that people never seem to get upset about the Church publicly advocating an end to the Death Penalty; why is that? Is it because being anti-CP is more politically correct than being Pro-life? It is just as much a political issue as Abortion, just as emotionally-charged in many ways, and is actually a far older fight in this country. This is not to suggest that the Catholic Church should be actually making policy; it shouldn't. But cries of "Seperation of Church and State!" cannot and must not be used to silence "politically inconveniant" points of view, whether those cries are against Abortion or the war on Iraq ( which the Church also opposes." )

RickSp · Jan 24, 2005, 07:17 pm

Quote:

Quote by: bishop

i think that shows how much attention i pay to these topics. i also said using jesus's image for political purposes, not for commercial purposes - which imo, clearly represents greed.

What some folks call greed, others call inspirational items. Religious items have been bought and sold for at a millenium. Seperating the poltical and the inspirational is not always easy.

Brings a sog to mind:

"I don't care if it rains or freezes,
long as I've got my plastic Jesus
sittin' on the dashboard of my car.

I can go a hundred miles and hour
long as I've got the almighty power
sitting up there with my pair of fuzzy dice."

Glory Gee to Besus.

bishop · Jan 24, 2005, 07:29 pm

dunedan,

i was raised catholic and i know all about the teachings.. heh, i might have been asleep in ccd, but something still sunk in. i now consider myself to be a bit of a lapsed catholic. i believe in god, and the biblical calls for peace and all that good stuff - but i'm not so sure i believe in the holy trinity, nor am i convinced that jesus was more than a very holy person who was a martyr for humanity (or his faith, however you choose ot perceive it). and i certainly don't believe in hocus pocus phrases like "god works in mysterious ways".

and as far as abortion goes, as with all political issues, i don't factor religion into my thought process - because i believe that religion is something for the individual that shouldn't be imposed on others. if abortion is a sin, which i believe it is, the individual should be free to choose between sinning or not. if you stick a person in a cage, cover their eyes, ears and mouth and feed them through a tube - is that person free to choose between sinning or not, or even able to sin? you get the point. the church, however, looks to me like they want to push their views into becoming legislated by the worlds' governments.

and as for your #2.. the church is bound by the laws of the bible, it does not have the right to say/do whatever it likes. i haven't done any church bashing, as seems to be the fad these days.. my observation was that this statue does seem to stray into some of the bible's darker parts.

gr8fuldaniel · Jan 25, 2005, 02:27 pm

The catholic church, among others are guilty of putting their own spin on scripture. They are an exclusive club and have a right in their own minds, to put whatever interpretation on any word they want. Let God be their judge. Let the pope be damned if he harms one child and clouds the truth.
How many different ways can you interpret: "Thou shaft have no graven images"?
I see the church setting itself up as above God, in arrogance. The church lays down all these rules that are punishable by eternal hell, and then excludes itself from the rules.
Another phase of this article; The Knights of Columbus commissioned the statue. Do the Catholics condone the massacre and enslavement of the natives by Columbus? Didnt the filthy catholics set up missions and forced the natives to mine gold for the treasure of the king and the pope. Churchs that violate human rights should have no "Freedom of Religion" on our shores. They should set up shop elsewhere. IMHO.

Suburbanite · Jan 25, 2005, 02:37 pm

of course you could put that statue in your own yard

gr8fuldaniel · Jan 25, 2005, 03:39 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Suburbanite,

of course you could put that statue in your own yard

If I lived next door to the church in question, is the only way that would make a statement. I am accomplished in bronze sculpture so it is possible. Maybe, I could do one in aluminum for portability. Or paper mache. And plant it on the sidewalk. I live about 1/2 hour away from Auburn. Maybe I will, if I get sufficiently riled about it.

Here is a bit on my last post:

Quote:

By MARION LLOYD
Associated Press Writer
LINK
SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico (AP)
<snippet>
An estimated 1 million Tainos were living on the island of Hispaniola -- now divided between Haiti and the Dominican Republic -- when Christopher Columbus arrived in 1492.

Within 20 years, fewer than 50,000 Indians remained. Most fell prey to diseases the Spanish brought with them and the colonizers' brutal treatment. Tainos on other Caribbean islands experienced a similar fate.

Rainbow · Jan 27, 2005, 10:14 am

Is there anybody, who has any contacts with the God ?
There are people who believe in God's existance and they think that they have expreinced it, "somehow". It depends of their personal spiritual and intellectual views, feelings, ect. Also, there are people who do not blieve in any God. Both groups claim "this" or "that".
We have no idea on God, in my opinion. We just simply guess it.

What Religion is all about and what Church does along with its spiritual leaders and/or representatives that is yet another aspect. It concerns all the Religions and Churches.
What we all should do - as well as an individual - and what we really do, that is exactly the same parallel.

Who is to be blamed ? :-)))
Ourselves, regardless of our own beliefs.

Jan 24, 2005, 05:21 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
RickSp Volcanic Erupter Posts: 9,589	Ah gr8tfuk, regarding those graven images, if they applied the standard that you seem to infer from the line of scripture, the Catholic Church would have to pull down every cathedral in Europe and one or two in the US. Why shouldn't a private group be allowed to express their views on their own property? I happen to find many aspects of the Catholic Church to be odious, but as long as they do not force their views on me, I shouldn't be able to force my views on them. Rick "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

Jan 24, 2005, 07:29 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
bishop moderat-e/o-r Location: boston Posts: 11,184	dunedan, i was raised catholic and i know all about the teachings.. heh, i might have been asleep in ccd, but something still sunk in. i now consider myself to be a bit of a lapsed catholic. i believe in god, and the biblical calls for peace and all that good stuff - but i'm not so sure i believe in the holy trinity, nor am i convinced that jesus was more than a very holy person who was a martyr for humanity (or his faith, however you choose ot perceive it). and i certainly don't believe in hocus pocus phrases like "god works in mysterious ways". and as far as abortion goes, as with all political issues, i don't factor religion into my thought process - because i believe that religion is something for the individual that shouldn't be imposed on others. if abortion is a sin, which i believe it is, the individual should be free to choose between sinning or not. if you stick a person in a cage, cover their eyes, ears and mouth and feed them through a tube - is that person free to choose between sinning or not, or even able to sin? you get the point. the church, however, looks to me like they want to push their views into becoming legislated by the worlds' governments. and as for your #2.. the church is bound by the laws of the bible, it does not have the right to say/do whatever it likes. i haven't done any church bashing, as seems to be the fad these days.. my observation was that this statue does seem to stray into some of the bible's darker parts. Last edited by bishop; Jan 24, 2005 at 10:41 pm.

Jan 25, 2005, 02:27 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
gr8fuldaniel Fire the Liars Location: California Posts: 7,090	The catholic church, among others are guilty of putting their own spin on scripture. They are an exclusive club and have a right in their own minds, to put whatever interpretation on any word they want. Let God be their judge. Let the pope be damned if he harms one child and clouds the truth. How many different ways can you interpret: "Thou shaft have no graven images"? I see the church setting itself up as above God, in arrogance. The church lays down all these rules that are punishable by eternal hell, and then excludes itself from the rules. Another phase of this article; The Knights of Columbus commissioned the statue. Do the Catholics condone the massacre and enslavement of the natives by Columbus? Didnt the filthy catholics set up missions and forced the natives to mine gold for the treasure of the king and the pope. Churchs that violate human rights should have no "Freedom of Religion" on our shores. They should set up shop elsewhere. IMHO. ~~ Helpful Linx * Huff Post * WRH * RAW STORY ~~

Jan 24, 2005, 05:37 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
SlySpy Molten Ash Posts: 135	RickSp, is anyone here forcing their views on the catholic church? This is an observation of an instance of a Catholic church's hypocrisy. One can't respectfully condone the ten commandments in one case, yet break a commandment in another.

Jan 24, 2005, 06:05 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
The Dunedan Hot Lava Posts: 925	The "Graven Images" stricture is not a commandment of its' own; rather it is a corrolary ro Commandment 1 which Protestants sometimes erroneously seperate. The full, correct text is: "Thos shalt have no Gods before Me, nor make unto thee any graven image to bow down and worship it." or something to that near effect. The commandment against "graven images" is a specific commandment against Idolatry; it is not a general prohibition against the making of statues. Recall that God commanded the Israelites to have statues of Cherubim atop the Ark Of The Covenant, and that the Great Basin of Solomon's temple was supported by a dozen bronze oxen.

Jan 24, 2005, 06:49 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
bishop moderat-e/o-r Location: boston Posts: 11,184	the statue aims to be a veneration of christ, but the political manipulation is worrisome.. statues have been made of christ on the cross... paintings of the last supper. decorations of baby jesus at christmas time.. i don't believe i've ever seen christ's image manipulated for political purposes. i'm not exactly sure if this is a veneration. a purist would say that it's a defilement. while i like to stay away from the subject, this strays close to some of the passages in revelations. i think present-day christians (specifically evangelicals and charismatics) are definitely using religion for political goals, and i see that practice as being both spiritually as well as politically dangerous.

Jan 24, 2005, 07:13 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
The Dunedan Hot Lava Posts: 925	Bishop You have to realize that; 1: We Catholics take the abotion issue very seriously and very sorrowfully. It is a horribly hurtful thing, to our understanding, that we do the Unborn in this country. You see, in Catholic Theology, every Sin ever committed was borne by Jesus when He was crucified. As a consequence, every Sin which -is- or has been committed amplified His physical and emotiona anguish on Passion Friday. For us, Abortion at any stage is nothing less than a heinous crime, the murder of a defenseless person. We oppose such murders in all cases; this is why we oppose Abortion, involuntary Euthenasia, and Capital Punishment as well. 2: The Catholic Church has a right to say whatever it likes, however it likes. The laws of God, which command us to speak out against injustice and cruelty, are not subject to the laws of Man. Tax the Church if you want; we will not cease to speak against this horrible practice, or its' corrolaries in the Culture Of Death. I've noticed that people never seem to get upset about the Church publicly advocating an end to the Death Penalty; why is that? Is it because being anti-CP is more politically correct than being Pro-life? It is just as much a political issue as Abortion, just as emotionally-charged in many ways, and is actually a far older fight in this country. This is not to suggest that the Catholic Church should be actually making policy; it shouldn't. But cries of "Seperation of Church and State!" cannot and must not be used to silence "politically inconveniant" points of view, whether those cries are against Abortion or the war on Iraq ( which the Church also opposes." )

Jan 25, 2005, 02:37 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
Suburbanite BANNED Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,203	of course you could put that statue in your own yard

Jan 27, 2005, 10:14 am	#16 (permalink) (top)
Rainbow Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,250	Is there anybody, who has any contacts with the God ? There are people who believe in God's existance and they think that they have expreinced it, "somehow". It depends of their personal spiritual and intellectual views, feelings, ect. Also, there are people who do not blieve in any God. Both groups claim "this" or "that". We have no idea on God, in my opinion. We just simply guess it. What Religion is all about and what Church does along with its spiritual leaders and/or representatives that is yet another aspect. It concerns all the Religions and Churches. What we all should do - as well as an individual - and what we really do, that is exactly the same parallel. Who is to be blamed ? :-))) Ourselves, regardless of our own beliefs.