Silenced in China

[tinybear]

What's wrong with holding a referendum on the issue then? Let's hear the people's voices. Who knows, they may vote to re-unify. Problem solved without bloodshed. Quebec did it and no civil war or unrest occurred.

[castille]

Even if the people of Taiwan vote to reunify, the US would forbid it. And if Taiwan disagrees with the US, well I certainly hope this world is prepared for World War 3.

[tinybear]

The US would have to come up with a respectable reason for "forbidding" it. But it isn't the US who is fiercely opposing a referendum on the issue. It's China. If Taiwan goes ahead despite China's opposition, I certainly hope the world is prepared for WWIII.

[Nono]

Quote by: castille Can anyone prove, apart from unreliable witnesses, that any wide-scale oppression actually takes place?

Can anyone really prove that astronauts walked on the moon or that there were gas chambers at Auschwitz, I mean to the satisfaction of someone who just doesn’t want to believe it?

Taiwan is a pain in the neck run by a bunch of guys still sore about losing the civil war.

I thought Chiang Kai-shek was long dead.

See those American bombers sitting on the island?

No.

They could bomb all of China's coastal cities in less than 2 days and wipe out 1 million civilians in less time than I could write this. ... Even if the people of Taiwan vote to reunify, the US would forbid it.

Why? In the unlikely event that they really voted massively to reunify, that would lift an unwanted albatross from around the United States’ neck. This doesn’t mean, of course, that the US could be relied on to do much if and when the Chinese government (probably to draw attention, à la Galtieri, away from internal problems) invades.

[Nono]

Yes, the Uighurs speak a different language* and are overwhelmingly Muslim.

Reports of repression in Xinjiang are numerous and varied, despite the Peking authorities’ best efforts to paper things over. Language and religion are important factors, but the main thing in “Greater China” has always been racism. If you ain’t Han, well sorry, but they’re going to walk all over you. The Tibetans are another example, but any Manchu, Mongolian, etc. will tell the same story.

One interesting aspect is how this feeds into China’s growing relationship with Shia-ruled Iran, as the Uighurs are apparently mostly Sunnis. At any rate the Chinese are selling the Iranians weapons big-time and the latter supplying the Chinese with oil. A real symbiotic relationship in all respects.

* There are, apparently, striking linguistic and musical links between the Uighurs and -- wait for this -- the Hungarians. (Magyar-Uighur, sounds kinda similar, eh? But that’s probably coincidence.) The Uighurs, though, are a Turkic people and refer to their region as Eastern Turkistan. The Han run the place the way the Javanese run most of Indonesia, with the iron fist of an outsider.

[castille]

Quote by: tinybear The US would have to come up with a respectable reason for "forbidding" it.

"Duh, you can't join dem commie pigs! Or we be nuking you, understand?"

What, you think the US would just let a "glorious democratic state" join an "evil hateful angry oppressive super-duper bad Commie state"?

Can anyone really prove that astronauts walked on the moon or that there were gas chambers at Auschwitz, I mean to the satisfaction of someone who just doesn’t want to believe it?

I'm glad you brought this up. You see, I lived in Xijiang for a long time. Therefor, if there was oppression I would see it.

Now let me ask you: Have you lived in Xijiang?

See those American bombers sitting on the island? No.

So you are denying there is a US military base, with US combat aircraft, on Taiwan?

[Nono]

I lived in Xijiang for a long time. Therefor, if there was oppression I would see it.

Faulty logic, castille. I've lived in western Switzerland for 23 years, yet I've never seen a large-scale avalanche. However, I would be a fool to deny their existence just because I haven't seen it. And you, castille, are wilfully ignorant of what you don't wish to know.

Now let me ask you: Have you lived in Xijiang?

Visited, but not lived. Now let me ask you: Have you ever lived in the United States, a country about which you go on endlessly?

So you are denying there is a US military base, with US combat aircraft, on Taiwan?

I'm not aware of one, no. Can you tell me where exactly it is located on the island and what the US calls it? (They always have a name for those things.)

[castille]

Quote by: Nono Faulty logic, castille. I've lived in western Switzerland for 23 years, yet I've never seen a large-scale avalanche. However, I would be a fool to deny their existence just because I haven't seen it.

An avalanche is not like oppression. Avalanches exist only in certain areas, during limited periods of time. Oppression is widespread, and occur continously.

Its YOUR logic thats faulty here.

Now let me ask you: Have you ever lived in the United States, a country about which you go on endlessly?

Yes.

Have you ever lived in China?

I'm not aware of one, no. Can you tell me where exactly it is located on the island and what the US calls it?

Me: Hey I'm from the Chinese army, do you reckon I could take a look at your military bases stationed on Taiwan?
American Soldier: Of course, Mr Chinese Soldier! Why don't I give you a tour of our top-secret nuclear weapons facilities? Here, take a free promotional nuclear missile.

Why does Beijing oppose a referendum? What have they got to fear? Could it be *horrors* that they know that the people of Taiwan do not wish to ruled by a communist regime?

I don't know. Why did the United States support dictatorships in Taiwan, South Vietnam, and South Korea during the 1950s and 60s?

[tinybear]

Why does Beijing oppose a referendum? What have they got to fear? Could it be *horrors* that they know that the people of Taiwan do not wish to ruled by a communist regime? :rolleyes:

[Matt W]

Tinybear:- Democracy is not compatible with Communism - as you well know. Asking rhetorical questions won't change the world.

[tinybear]

I know. I just wanted to see how much longer castille can avoid admitting it, namely that China is trying to take away the freedom of the Taiwanese people against their will.

[castille]

Democracy is not compatible with Communism

Democracy isn't compatible with right-wing dictatorships either, but that didn't stop America from supporting dictatorships.

But of course, the US only supports oppression when its in American interests.

namely that China is trying to take away the freedom of the Taiwanese people against their will

The Chinese government also prevents me from robbing a bank, which is oppression of my free will. I demand democracy!

[Matt W]

As has been said earlier on the thread, the US is not the topic of discussion. China is.

[tinybear]

China has imposed its will and rule upon the Uyghurs and Tibetans and threatens to do the same to the Taiwanese. It's that simple.

[castille]

I'm using the US as a comparision.

You see, without a comparision, it is impossible to argue whether China is a free or oppressive country.

Since the United States claims to be the freedom-loving country in the world, I am using them as the benchmark to determine China's freedom rating.

And since the United States, as the world's Number 1 freedom loving country, continually supports dictatorships for selfish interests, I assume that is what freedom is all about.

[Matt W]

Indeed, this is the case. But it does not therefore render TB's argument invalid that China are repressing regions that don't want to be under their control. Much better, rather, to admit faults in both systems than fling mud at the other side.

[Nono]

Quote by: castille Oppression is widespread, and occur continously.

Garbage. It usually occurs in discrete instances: arrests, torture sessions, massacres, etc.

[Ningning]

The suposed ethnic problems in China aren't caused so much due to racial problems as, than they are to more complex socio-economic issues. As a young child living in Beijing, the neighborhood adjacent to where i lived was dominated by what we call "hui min," Chinese muslims who had not so long ago moved east to settle in Beijing. The younger generations of these people, having grown up in Beijing, bore no percievable difference to a Han, other than the fact that they ate a lot of lamb instead of pork.

But when you talk about these indigenous peoples of western china in their place of origin, they are generally lie alower economic strata than the Hans that have been moved into the area. When one group has noticibly more money and power than another group, that is naturally going to cause tension in the area. This is not a problem that lies only between China's various ethnic groups, it is rather a more general problem that has drawn a thick black line between China's urban and rural populations.

As for people who want parts of China to split off and become independent, it is very understandable, from a political perspective, why the central government is not very nice to those people.

To me personally, i don't understand why people fight over territory in the first place.

As for Taiwan, do you people realize that until recently, the island was, for all intents and purposes, a dictatorship by the KMT? Children in taiwan were taught to worship Chang Kai Sheik like children in china were taught to worship Mao. Also, when the KMT moved its operations to Taiwan after the communist revolution, they slaughtered thousands of native taiwanese. Taiwan is not the happy democracy many people think it is.

I think idealy taiwan and the mainland will unify eventually under the terms that they retain a certain degree of political automony, but that they recognize Beijing as their central government. Such an agreement will be economically beneficial for both parties, and stength china's prospects as a future world superpower.

[tinybear]

What you say is true, but that is history. The present President and Vice-President of Taiwan have both been imprisoned by the KMT, so they know how it feels to be under authoritarian rule. They are of course by no means perfect themselves, but the undeniable fact remains that the Taiwanese people now have a right to choose their leaders via universal suffrage. Whether the government they choose is better or worse than the communist regime in the Mainland is beside the point. It is their choice. The taiwanese people will probably wish to hang on to this right. In other words, there will be no re-unification unless and until Mainland China ends one-party rule or take Taiwan back by force.

[castille]

And like Taiwan's brutal dictatorship, China's worst periods of oppression is old history.

As we speak now, China is heading more towards a more humane rule. Of course, Americans have no patience (which explains those get-rich-quick schemes), so they expect China to go from authoritarian state to democracy in 20 seconds.

You know what happens when a country changes too fast? Ask Russia.

When a train going at 200 miles an hour makes a sudden turn, it will derail.