So-Called Christian Coulter Bashes Tsunami Victims, Calls For Nuclear War....

[bishop]

Your comments about Indonesian past history under an entirely different regime are so out of date as to be completely meaningless. Indonesia has lots of problems but your xenophic and condescending comments are way off the mark, to put it mildly.

indonesia still practices genocide though.. and we still give them weapons.

[RickSp]

Quote by: bishop indonesia still practices genocide though.. and we still give them weapons.

Genocide? An easy word to throw around carelessly.

Indonesia does have a history of genocide. Most of the recent killings are the responsibility of the 30 year Suharto dictatorship including the PKI massacres of 1966 and the East Timor invasion of 1975.

The conflict in Aceh under President Megawati has been bloody but to call it genocide is hyperbole at best.

[bishop]

you're wrong, i'm afraid. the indonesian military has continued to target east timorese civilians in recent years (ex. 1999). and we continue to be the indonesian army's primary weapons supplier. i believe we give them these weapons either for free or at a generous discount.

http://www.ploughshares.ca/CONTENT/A...siaETimor.html
http://www.pbs.org/weta/washingtonwe...521voting.html

in the 1948 geneva convention, genocide is defined to include:

1. killing members of the group;
2. causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
3. deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
4. imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
5. forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

the indonesia military continues to engage in raids against the east timorese (not only rebels). they routinely torture, rape and murder east timorese civilians. it may not be of the grand scale of the nazis, but it's clearly a campaign focused specifically on a particular ethnic group. mass graves are found every now and then - including in recent years.

[tinybear]

Have you guys been to Indonesia? I have. For just 10 days. But that was enough for me. Corruption's a way of life there and dishonesty was something to be proud of and to brag about. I'm never going back unless I have to.

[tinybear]

Quote by: Lou Minotti I also like Tinybear. But I hate Anne Coulter. http://www.prisonplanet.com/coulter_07_10_03.html Coulter at her finest. When you can't answer questions backed up by AP and MSNBC, you need to rethink your political strategy, in my opinion. Say what you will about Alex Jones but Coulter comes off like a babbling moron.

I love that tune "The Imperial March" which was obviously intended to strike terror into your heart even before the interview begins.
:p

[tinybear]

Quote by: PatrickHenry You guys... Lose the one-liners or one worders as the case may be... Re: India and aid http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/.../0708india.htm India is on a different track right now...

India Accused of Blocking Tsunami Aid

By NEELESH MISRA
PORT BLAIR, India (AP) - India's refusal to allow access to the remote Andaman and Nicobar islands is preventing aid from reaching the most desperate survivors of last week's tsunamis, international aid groups said Monday, as the country's death toll was expected to top 15,000.

Despite the Dec. 26 tsunami that ripped through the low-lying atolls, the Indian government has stood by its long-standing policy of restricting entry to the islands out of concerns for the security of a military air base as well as the protection of indigenous tribes.

``This closed-door approach of not allowing NGOs (non-governmental organizations) is delaying relief efforts,'' said Shaheen Nilofer, program manager for Eastern India for international aid agency Oxfam.

``Valuable time has been lost because of this delay. (India is) accelerating the miseries of the poor people,'' she said. ``Somewhere, someone has to be responsible. If you don't take care of the survivors, the number of deaths can far outnumber the deaths from the tsunami.''

[Gorgo]

Kick over a rock.....

'In his hilarious 2003 book Lies (And the Lying Liars Who Tell Them), Al Franken argues that the abusive tone of rightwing zealots like Bill O'Reilly and Ann Coulter can be traced back to Scaife, and in particular to one episode in 1981 when Scaife verbally assaulted a reporter. When the reporter, Karen Rothmeyer of the Columbia Journalism Review, asked Scaife about his funding of conservative groups, he replied, "You fucking communist cunt, get out of here." Franken writes that Scaife "went on to tell her that she was ugly and that her teeth were 'terrible.' Of Ms. Rothmeyer's mother, who was not present, he said, 'She's ugly, too.' Sensing that it was time to wrap up the interview, Ms. Rothmeyer thanked Scaife for his time. He bade her farewell with a cheery 'Don't look behind you.'"

"That's the funny thing about tone," Franken continues, "It's so subjective. Usually, I find it's enough to call someone a 'fucking communist cunt,' without having to gild the lily by disparaging her teeth and issuing veiled threats."'

[RickSp]

Quote by: bishop you're wrong, i'm afraid. the indonesian military has continued to target east timorese civilians in recent years (ex. 1999). and we continue to be the indonesian army's primary weapons supplier. i believe we give them these weapons either for free or at a generous discount. [

Nope. You are completely missing the point. You seem to be blaming the current Indonesian government, with all its many problems, for the mass murder of the Suharto regime. You cite East Timor which has been independent from Indonesia since last May. Even your links don't support you. Your first link begins by stating:

There was no reported fighting or conflict-related deaths in 2001. Closely monitored by 8,000 UN Peacekeepers, August elections for East Timor’s first democratically-elected assembly were peaceful with a turnout of more than 90 per cent. Initial steps were taken to create East Timor’s national army and talks were held with former militia members to promote reconciliation.

East Timor is an independent country and has had four years of relative peace. If you argue that the Indonesian Army has been too heavy handed fighting the rebels in Aceh, you might have a case. Blaming the actions of the Suharto regime and (left over elements of Suharto' s army) on the current freely elected government is simply a slur based on misinformation - sort of like most of Ann Coulter's screeds. (And I suspect that she has better legs than you do Bishop.)

[tinybear]

East Timor is history. But Indonesian syndicated corruption, disrespect for law and violence/discrimination/hostility against Chinese remains.

[RickSp]

Quote by: tinybear East Timor is history. But Indonesian syndicated corruption, disrespect for law and violence/discrimination/hostility against Chinese remains.

I believe you have expressed your distain for Indonesia several times on this thread already. Repetition is really boring. A bit like Ann Coulter's rants. (Trying at least a little to get the thread back on track.)

[tinybear]

Can't handle the truth?

[RickSp]

Quote by: tinybear Can't handle the truth?

As I noted before, your bias is boring. I've noticed very little "truth" in your posts.

You continue to ignore the prohibition on one-liners I see. This will be the last of yours I respond to. Just generates clutter.

[bishop]

Nope. You are completely missing the point. You seem to be blaming the current Indonesian government, with all its many problems, for the mass murder of the Suharto regime. You cite East Timor which has been independent from Indonesia since last May. Even your links don't support you.

i didn't post those links to be the be-all, end-all.. if you think that suharto's military policies have ended, simply because he's no longer in power, you are sadly mistaken. specifically regarding the indonesia military's relationship with ethnic minorities, not much, if anything, has really changed. this includes both east timor as well as aceh.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/aceh...htm#P250_45140
http://hrw.org/press/2002/03/acehrep031502.htm

or how about papua? not much has changed there either, in fact, it's a blast from the past. for a short while, things were good, then theys eluay was assassinated - most believe it was contracted out by the indonesian government. and what happened next? timbil silaen, the former east timor police chief (who has been implicated in the 1999 massacres that happened AFTER suharto), was installed as papua's new police chief. and then you have open militia recruiting (pro-indonesian militias that is) going on in wamena led by another vestige of the 1999 massacre - eurico guterres.

and, i have a bit more meat on my legs, opposite of coulter's chicken legs.


*edit*

here's a link for guterres: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...&oneclick=true

[tinybear]

Gee, I wonder what Ann Coulter's views on Indonesia are?

[RickSp]

if you think that suharto's military policies have ended, simply because he's no longer in power, you are sadly mistaken.

Why would it be reasonable to assume that things changed overnight? That wouldn't make any more sense than blaming the current government for events like East Timor that occured under the dictatorship.

I looked back at what I wrote at the beginning of this largely wasted exercise. I wrote "Indonesia, the largest Muslim country in the world, just held free and fair elections, electing secular leaders, by the way. They deserve our help, while Coulter just heaps insults and scorn."

That seems like an accurate statement to me. I do find it interesting that the neocons have completely ignored a largely peaceful election in the largest primarily Muslim country in the world while pinning all their hopes on a phony election in Iraq which will in all likelihood will merely make things worse.

[tinybear]

"If they’d shown half the indignation they showed at George Bush for not immediately turning over the entire United States treasury to Indonesia—where the Indonesians are all wearing Osama bin Laden T-shirts..." I think her point was: why is our President being blamed for not being generous enough with aid to a country whose people are fans of our greatest enemy? You disagree with this? Why?

[Lou Minotti]

I like how Anne Coulter gets an email with a photo of some kids wearing Osama shirts and all of the sudden the entire region worships him. 2+2 doesn't always equal five. She should apologize. The tramp....

[tinybear]

Granted that you can't say the majority of Indonesians are Osama Bin Laden supporters, still you can't say they like Americans either, can you?

[tinybear]

Besides it's not as if we gave nothing to Indonesia. We did.

[bishop]

Why would it be reasonable to assume that things changed overnight? That wouldn't make any more sense than blaming the current government for events like East Timor that occured under the dictatorship.

the items i've just cited are actions that have occurred under the current government, NOT under suharto's regime. it doesn't seem like you've acknowledged that - and that you continue to allege that i'm simply talking about events that happened under suharto. kind of like the free and fair elections in papua, and then the subsequent assassination of their elected leader..

certainly the indonesian people deserve our help.. but we're doing much more than that. we continue to arm their military which actively targets ethnic minorities without mercy.

also, what i'm saying also has nothing to do with coulter. i don't follow her, and i don't pay attention to any pundit. i'm simply refusing to accept the notion that we should support indonesia's government - one that continues the atrocities that occured under suharto.