4th plane "Shot Down" ?

[Young]

Oh Really............

Cuz like ya know, I was told that these amazing people said, "Lets Roll" and whooped the Terrorists but then couldn't Fly the plane and it crashed. That was the WH story, the Major Media story, but i was kinda wondering why they'd report "What they figured happened" instead of what eye witness's claimed to have seen.

First hand accounts include up to 8 people who "ALL" claim that an UNMarked Military Jet Flew around Flight 93 & then shot it down with a Missle strike.

So Rummy gets over to Baghdad and just gets stupid? Decides to tell Us the Truth, Kinda like waving a Flag, or just maybe they'd been talking about the Lie in Public & the Truth behind closed doors and Rummy forgot where He was.

The 4th plane being "Shot Down" Not only means that this admin lied to Us, but its very important in establishing the Idea that maybe, just maybe Our President could of saved Thousands of lifes, if only He'd of acted instead of sitting in a classroom getting in His photo - op.

NO - They needed those strikes to occur. The part of the Pentagon that was struck, was under reconstruction. Who (People wise) were given offices in that area? What kinds of classified "Important" documents were in that area?

They needed Public Outrage, to move on Afghanistan & to have the Public's support for Iraq, they just needed to whisper lies about Iraq being connected to 9/11. They got the Patriot act, which kinda slights the work of Terrorists, but also makes inroads on Our Rights.

In some "Closed room meetings" ?Leaders? of this Country freely speak the Truth about 9/11 & they probably are certain that without 9/11's "Important Notice" on the Capability of Terrorists, that Our Nation would still be in a place where we overlooked America's weakness to these kinds of attacks, but still they have failed to address the Border Control issue that would actually protect Us.

So maybe Rummy just forgot where He was & whom He was speaking with.........or Maybe Rummy wanted to send Americans a Message. The "Message" being that the "People" who Shot down flight 93, were the Same people who attacked Us in NYC, now Rummy's got my full attention.....because this is what i have came to believe, & if you still can't see it, then i strongly suggest you spend some time researching this site........ www.wanttoknow.info

[Young]

http://cnn.usnews.printthis.clickabi...partnerID=2004

Oops....thought you might want the LINK.

[RickSp]

So you are saying that Rumsfeld was telling the truth? Kind of out of character, don't you think?

[mook]

"As we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know."

I think that sums it up quite nicely.

[jose]

http://www.f16viper.org/edlund4.jpg
well here is a photo of the pilot who got a medal for shooting down 93
the 4 from left

[Sonart]

Quote by: Young Cuz like ya know, I was told that these amazing people said, "Lets Roll" and whooped the Terrorists but then couldn't Fly the plane and it crashed.

Then you read wrong.

--"In the final minutes of United Airlines Flight 93, the voice data recorder picked up the sounds of a desperate struggle. The crash of galley dishes and trays being hurled. A man's scream. And inside the cockpit, a group of hijackers trying desperately to keep the passengers out.

The fight was fierce, according to an account of the events in this week's Newsweek magazine. The voice recording does not indicate whether the passengers actually made it inside the cockpit, but it does indicate that the struggle unnerved the hijackers. They can be heard talking about finishing off the plane , which had by that time gone into a dive."--

I'm no fan of Rumsnamara, but this is a tempest in a teapot, a futless Rummy saying "shot down" when he likely meant "brought down" by the terrorists.

Quote by: jose well here is a photo of the pilot who got a medal for shooting down 93

Nice photo, but pure nonsense. Prove it.

.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: Sonart Nice photo, but pure nonsense. Prove it.

1) Secondary Debris Field eight miles away.

2) FBI Confirmed debris 8 miles away is from Flight 93 (Idaho Observer)

3) Rick Gibney recieved a Congressional Medal on Sept 13, 2001

[Anniee]

Do you have a reliable source? As in, you know, an actual newspaper or any kind of documents stating WHAT the medal was for, etc? Btw two days later seems a mite soon, doesn't it? Like extremely so?

[BloodEagle]

makes me laugh almost... people ask for truth and proof and suggest a newspaper as a reliable source. Now that's funny.!

[Sonart]

Perhaps you guys misunderstood me. When I say prove it, I do not mean link me to conspiracy websites. Hell, I can prove the CIA blew up the World Trade Center... it says so on the Internet. I mean legitimate news coverage, official reports and investigations.

One of my guiding principles regarding conspiracies is this: The mainstream media thrives on one thing... scoops, the big story, especially scoops involving government cover-ups and scandals. With all the "proof" available on the Internet regarding flight 93, if there were anything at all to this story, the media would have been all over it... BIG TIME... particularly since the government has made it no secret that Dick Cheney ordered the plane to be shot down if possible. Why would they deny actually shooting it down later?

They were no such stories. There's no there there. End of story.

--"Yesterday we were able to confirm that Colonel Don de Grand-pre claims he spoke face to face with Maj. Rick Gibney and Gibney told him that he was the pilot who shot down Flight 93. Colonel Don de Grand-pre first raised awareness to the fate of Flight 93 during an interview on The Alex Jones Show back in February."-- Caller : And was United Airlines Flight 93 shot down in Pennsylvania by a U.S. or NATO pilot and was that what was supposed to hit the Pentagon? DGP: No, that was hit at 10:00 hours. It was taken out by the North Dakota Air Guard. I know the pilot who fired those two missiles to take down 93. Caller : Was it shot down because the airline pilots actually regained control of the hijacked auto-pilot or was that to replace the unmanned drone that was shot down? DGP: No, it was the aircraft, you see, had totally unconscious people on board. There were no hijackers. At 9:35, the Happy Hooligans, the Air Guard flying the F-16s were ordered to take that plane out. And they took it out from 9:35 to 10:00. Caller : Were there any refueling jets involved in that operation? AJ: Hold on a second, John. The question is why would they deviate from the plan of flying it into the Capitol? Why did the globalists decide to go ahead and shoot the plane down? DGP: There had been an adjustment to the controls, probably by an AWACs aircraft flying overhead, again, remote control. And it was on a course for either the Capitol or the White House. And at this stage, you don't know. The Happy Hooligans came in and took care of it. AJ: Do you think they were not following orders? DGP: Who, the Happy Hooligans? AJ: Well, yeah, you've got Cheney running around, we've got the stand down taking place. DGP: Well, this is correct, but you see the Adj. General of the State of North Dakota gave the command to take it out. And, by God, they took it out. And I've got the full story in the book. AJ: That's a good thing they did that. You said you talked to the pilot. Think about this folks. Imagine what Bush would have gotten if he would have had that plane fly into the Capitol? Imagine the police state we would be in right now. John: Was there any refueling tankers used by the North Dakota Air Guard and what tanker wing was used? DGP: I don't know about the aircraft itself. I don't know about refueling. They came off base in Langley and it was just a few minutes out from Langley to the intercept over Pennsylvania. It was just a matter of minutes. AJ: Colonel, how did you get in touch with the pilot who shot the plane down? DGP: It turned out to be an old friend of mine from the Air National Guard and this is my home state of North Dakota. And I attended the ceremony in North Dakota and watched the Adj. General [garbled] the pilot being decorated a year later for this activity that happened on 911 with Flight 93.

So, no one's talked to Gibney. What we have is the word of someone interviewed on a conspiracy talk radio program, who says that there were NO HIJACKERS ON THE FLIGHT, that EVERYONE ON FLIGHT 93 WAS UNCONCIOUS, that it was being BEING CONTROLLED BY AN AWACS TO FLY TO WASHINGTON, and the order to shoot it down came from the ADJ. GENERAL OF NORTH DAKOTA in order to save us from George Bush.

No hijackers and everyone was unconcious?

--"In the final minutes of United Airlines Flight 93 , the voice data recorder picked up the sounds of a desperate struggle. The crash of galley dishes and trays being hurled. A man's scream. And inside the cockpit, a group of hijackers trying desperately to keep the passengers out. The fight was fierce, according to an account of the events in this week's Newsweek magazine. The voice recording does not indicate whether the passengers actually made it inside the cockpit, but it does indicate that the struggle unnerved the hijackers. They can be heard talking about finishing off the plane, which had by that time gone into a dive."--

Complete 911 Timeline: United Airlines Flight 93 --"The transponder signal from Flight 93 ceases. [9:30, MSNBC, 9/3/02, after turning at 9:35, MSNBC, 9/11/02 (B), 9:40, CNN, 9/17/01, 9:41, 9/11 Commission Report, 6/17/04] But the plane can still be tracked, and is tracked by Cleveland flight controllers and at United headquarters."--

No mention of fighter aircraft in the vicinity.

.

[Sonart]

Quote by: BloodEagle makes me laugh almost... people ask for truth and proof and suggest a newspaper as a reliable source. Now that's funny.!

Oh, right you are, BloodEagle. If you want reliable sources, get if from Internet conspiracy sites.

{Pfffft!} :rolleyes:

.

[bullshitdetector]

Anniee, don't you know by now that the media is only right when it makes acclamations that are anti american or anti administration? Otherwise you're a fool to believe it, right? And we all know that these guys are so trusting of anything Rumsfeld says, right?

It's laughable, really. :rolleyes:

[Chris]

Quote by: Young http://cnn.usnews.printthis.clickabi...partnerID=2004 Oops....thought you might want the LINK.

Nice proof.

from the article:

Defense secretary's remark to troops fuels conspiracy theories

:rolleyes:

[Rainbow]

Rumsfeld referred to the "the people who attacked the United States in New York, shot down the plane over Pennsylvania."

Is that the exact phrase ?
If "yes" then it does not indicate as if that happened, while we may speculate on that, only.

Additionally, I followed some links posted in that matter :

http://letsroll911.org/articles/flight93shotdown.html
Assuming, that the information is correct and the U.S Force pilot shot down that plane (known as Flight 93, today), was there anything else that could be done to stop or prevent that plane from reaching its "target" ?
However, there is no information on any awards granted to that pilot, execpt for mere words.

http://www.wanttoknow.info/

This website provides a concise, reliable introduction to vital information being hidden from public view. We specialize in providing fact-filled summaries of major cover-ups which impact our lives and our world. All information is taken from the most reliable sources available and can be verified with a little research.

These guys are "the best". They are better than a gypsy with her crystal-ball :-)))

http://www.proliberty.com/observer/20011023.htm
The only F.B.I. report seems to make a sense, but it does not provide any specific data to support a conclusion that the plane was hit by a missle.

[Sonart]

Quote by: BSD Anniee, don't you know by now that the media is only right when it makes acclamations that are anti american or anti administration?

You mean like the 8 year media feeding frenzy over the various Clinton "scandals"? Yeah, I suppose that was definitely anti-American and anti-administration.

Quote by: BSD And we all know that these guys are so trusting of anything Rumsfeld says, right?

Beg pardon? I've been watching the media dutiflully covering Rumsnamara's trip to Iraq, and not so much as a snide remark (which is more than I can say about Fox News' anchors when reporting anything coming from Democrats).

On the other hand, considering the number of ways Rumsnamara has screwed the pooch during this war, why would YOU trust anything he says?

Quote by: Jose well here is a photo of the pilot who got a medal for shooting down 93

You have a citation proclaiming he got the medal for shooting down flight 93? Cuz I watched the whole friggin' hour of Governor John Hoeven's presentation, and here's exactly what he said ...

--"Within minutes of the attack on Sept. 11th, the 119th Fighter Wing, North Dakota Air National Guard was flying security over our nation's capitol. In North Dakota and worldwide they're known as the Happy Hooligans. Earlier this morning we presented the U.S. Air Force Airman's medal to four of our Happy Hooligans in recognition of their distinctive service on September 11th. Three of them flew surveillance over our nation's capitol and one flew a special mission to New York on that tragic day. They join us here today, and I would like to take just a minute to introduce each one of them to you. First, Major Ricky Gibney."--

Not a word about shooting down terrorists. And that "special mission"?

--"Derrig, Maj. Dean Eckman and Capt. Craig Borgstrom scrambled from Langley Air Force Base, Va., to protect the nation's capital. Maj. Rick Gibney took off from Fargo to fly the New York emergency management director from Montana to New York ."--

The official FAA Registry lists Gibney's certificate as 'Airline Transport Pilot.'



Photo Caption --At 9:30 a.m., two F-16s from Langley AFB, Va., got airborne but were sent to Baltimore in a misguided intercept effort. The F-16s, part of a detachment of the North Dakota ANG’s 119th FW, never got actual authority to shoot. (USAF photo by SSgt. Greg L. Davis)--

--"A C-130 transport plane that has been sent to follow Flight 77 flies a short distance from Flight 77 as it crashes. This curious C-130 is the same C-130 that is 17 miles from Flight 93 when it later crashes into the Pennsylvania countryside."--

from the above link... --"He (Lt. Col. Steve O'Brien) flew west, not exactly sure where he was supposed to land. Somewhere over western Pennsylvania, O'Brien looked down at a blackened, smoldering field. "I hoped it was just a tire fire or something, but when I checked with Cleveland center, he told me he'd just lost a guy off the scope pretty close to where we saw it. By then, we were able to patch in AM radio, so we heard about all the planes. It was like a domino effect - a really bad day for airplanes."--

--"Curious, I went to the 119th Fighter Wing website and I emailed them the URL of your website and advised them of this allegation. I received the following response from the 119th Fighter Wing:

>>Greetings: I want to thank you for bringing this to my attention, at least. This is not the first time unnamed or unidentified individuals have made total false claims about the the 119th Fighter Wing, in relation to the multiple attacks of Sept. 11th. The shoot-down theorists have made similar allegations previously but this one is a little more venomous. I don't know about this group, but I and others will make some inquiries. Again, thanks for bringing this matter to our attention. MSgt David Somdahl, Wing Historian / Public Information Officer 119th Fighter Wing, North Dakota Air National Guard "The Happy Hooligans"<<"--

--"Derrig, Maj. Dean Eckmann and Capt. Craig Borgstrom were the first military pilots scrambled over Washington as the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks unfolded. All fly for the North Dakota Air National Guard's 119th Fighter Wing , which stations pilots at an alert post at Langley Air Force Base in Virginia. They and other pilots from the Fargo-based unit patrolled above Washington and New York after Sept. 11. While boring at times, the flights drove home the magnitude of the attacks, Derrig and Eckmann said. "I don't think any fighter pilot in the United States would have ever thought they would be flying combat air patrols over American cities," Eckmann said. "That was huge, huge culture shock."--


Like I said, there's no there there, or the scandal hungry media would have reported it. The Internet, on the other hand, will say any damn thing, and you folks uncritically lap it up. There were no terrorists aboard, and everyone was unconcious. Yeah, right.
.

[Chris]

Some more:

Internet account describes Todd Beamer's final moments on Flight 93

[Nono]

Here's a question:

If the Pennsylvania plane had been shot down (rather than being deliberately crashed by its hijackers, who were apparently the bunglers among the four hijacker groups since they went as far west as Cleveland, I've heard, before they managed to get it turned back eastbound) why would the air force not be crowing this fact from the rooftops, given their inability -- as far as I've seen -- to explain why they didn't at least shoot down the plane that flew into the Pentagon?

In other words, if this flight was shot down (one out of four ain't bad...), why a cover-up?

[gr8fuldaniel]

What if the TRUTH is, that the plane wasnt shot down until the "hijackers" were overtaken by passengers and was going to land safely?

What if the TRUTH is, that the plane, wasnt shot down until after it had veered off course from the Capitol or White House? Because it had altered from its course?

What if the Reichstag fire were extinguished and the janitor was guilty ofsleeping on the job and the fire was started by a cigarette burning a couch?

Would it be in the best (devious) interests of those in power to just laugh it off as human error? Or to spin a conspiracy to the press that would give a mandate to declare war against an imaginary foe?

Is it in the best interests of the press to tell an Un-official version of the story and to be removed from the White House press briefings?
Which major newspaper wants to commit political suicide by uncovering a conspiracy of this magnitude? It is, after all, pretty unbelievable.
Bigger than any serial killer story to date, and committed by our trusted leaders?

[The Dunedan]

OK.
I have no websites ( since nobody here trusts anyone else's sources ). However, I do speak as a licensed VFR-rated private pilot, and someone who grew up around aircraft of all types.

These is no possible way for a crash, even a low-angle-of-attack "slider," to leave an 8-mile debris field. It's simply not possible. Such a crash occurred in KC back in 1991 and was caught on film: you've probably seen it on one of those "Horrible Things Happen!!" Fox-TV shows. The crash occurred at what are basically the optimum circumstances for such an incident: extremely low angle-of-attack, flat surface ( runway ) and high speed. The plane crashed and burst into flames, and wreckage slid about 1200 meters. NOT 8 miles. There was also a HUGE scorch-mark on the concrete...something we don't see from Flight 93.

That was on a smooth, flat surface, at roughly 250kts, and the A-o-A was about 8 degrees. Now, if any of these things change, the debris-field shrinks. Decrease speed; field shrinks. Increase A-o-A; field shrinks. Rough ground; field shrinks. In a straight-down crash like Flight 821 back in 1996, the debris-field can be smaller than a football stadium: everything gets thrown almost straight up, and comes straight back down again. Bits of Flight 93 were found 12 miles uprange of the alleged "impact site," with the debris-field proper beginning at 8m uprange. If I'm not mistaken, one of the engines was found somewhere around the 5m mark. This does NOT happen. Period. It has never happened. The KC crash had bits of debris a mile away. One mile, not 8. When the Phillips and AR-Co oil refineries in Dallas and Houston exploded in 1979 and 1981, they found debris 5 miles away: not 8. And this was from an entire refinery going up at once! That, my friends, is a LOT more energy than you get out of a single 757.

However, you -do- see this kind of debris-field makeup from incidents where an aircraft broke up in flight, for whatever reason. Pan-Am 103 comes readily to mind: its' debris-field was something on the order of 6-1/2 miles, if I recall correctly. When an airframe starts to break up in flight, the plane will generally keep flying ( or at least moving forward ) at several hundred knots until;
1: The tail breaks off. This causes the plan to immidiately stall, and then go into a zero-lift dive, straight into the ground.
2: One or both of the wings come off. This will either cause the plane to go into a "corkscrew dive" if one wings fails, or a "lawn dart" if both go off.
However, before one ( or both ) of these two things happen, the aircraft is still moving generally forwards. The bits and pieces that fall off as the plane breaks up will reflect this. What you see from the air is a come-shaped trail of debris: as you approach the "head" of the comet ( impact site ) the debris becomes more concentrated and the actual pieces of the plane tend to be larger as well.

Now, there are typically two things which cause an in-flight breakup:
1: Sudden catastrophic failure of a major component. In other words, something really important breaks ( usually from wear ) and when it does, it causes all sorts of other stuff to start going wrong. In the process, the extreme forces infolved start tearing bigger and bigger chunks off the airframe.
2: Something hitting the plane ( goose, missile, UFO, whatever ) and causing #1. Occaisionally an on-board explosion ( Pan-Am 103 ) can also do this, but it's much harder.

OK.
All this evidence points, IMO, to a shootdown. However, let me say this: I don't blame them.
You have to consider that this was some time after planes had hit the WTC and Pentagon. This particular aircraft was en-route towards several other high-priority targets ( Camp David, DC again, etc ). While I don't believe for a minute that these 19 highjackers acted alone, and I -do- believe that upper-echelon US/UN were involved in and exploited 9-11, I also know that for such a conspiracy to succeed, it has to be kept to the minimum workable number of people.
That being the case, I think it highly likely that some well-meaning Brass Hat somwhere, with a heavy heart, ordered F-93 shot down in order to spare an untold larger number of people at its' intended target. For this, I cannot fault him.

The whole "Todd Beamer Hero" thing also strikes me funny. It sounds entirely too much like the "babies dumped out of incubators by Iraqi troops" story from Gulf War 1, and too much like the "Jessica Lynch Rambo Woman" story from two years ago. In other words, it sounds like bullshit propaganda to me.

[jose]

eligibility for award of the Air Medal; the degree of heroism, meritorious achievement or exemplary service determines who should receive the award. Awards will not be made to individuals who use air transportation solely for the purpose of moving from point to point in a combat zone.

http://armyawards.com/am.shtml