Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

fellvoice21 · Jan 23, 2004, 04:19 pm

Despite all the rather interesting surveys out there which try to determine ideological standings (with questionable results), it seems to me there's but one essential difference between a conservative and a liberal.

(I prefer to use the terms conservative and liberal rather than Democratic and Republican, because so often the parties stray from their promises to appeal to voters, or don't have definable platforms. Term limits all the way!)

A conservative believes that people are essentially bad; a liberal believes people are essentially good. This explains socialism. Liberals believe a human will work out of compassion and ethics, even if he doesn't have any motivation; thus, we have communism. Conservatives realize man is lazy at heart, and thus advocates capitalism, which forces man to work for status and survival.

Thoughts, anyone?

onphiya · Jan 23, 2004, 04:30 pm

[font=Georgia]i, too, prefer conversative/liberal as opposed to democratic/republican. i'm more of a liberal, i would say, but according to your definition i'm conservative. capitalism rockz![/font]

tusaki · Jan 23, 2004, 05:43 pm

In that case it would make me a Liberal, because I choose to believe that (most of) mankind is inherently good. If it was not, how can I justify my own actions and believes? I also think man is ignorant and usually bases his actions on the greater good of the people he is closely assosiated with (usually few) instead of the people who are far away (usually many). Although the latter is logical and may be considered darwinistic (help the ppl who are in a position to help you to increase your chances of survival). Anyway.. im starting to ramble.. nvm me.

omega470 · Jan 23, 2004, 07:03 pm

I'd tend to agree with you, fellvoice, in the simplest sense of your statement. You are right on that capitalism is a form of government that basically does not cater to the lazy, where socialism does. Also right on is the idea that conservatives and liberals have very different views on humanity, but I'd like to refine your definition:

You said that conservatives think people are bad and liberals think they are good. Speaking as a self-proclaimed conservative, I'd disagree with the idea that people are bad. I think that bad people definately exist, but there is also an inherrent good in human nature. Amd its this trust in the good that spurs conservatives to be advocates for charity, a concept that only works when used by the good to help the needy.

While it's definately true that the liberal attitude is that people are good, it is that ALL people are good, and I'd have to say logically, historically, and through my own experience, not everyone is a good person. And it's for this very reason that theories based on the idea that all people are good, like communism, ultimately fail. It only takes one person, in communism, to screw everyone else. In capitalism, it takes that person to screw themselves.

So, I guess what I'm saying is, I totally think there's good in humanity, but people also need to realize that there's also bad, and thus capitalism works in that good people can advance and bad generally can't.

jhfenton · Jan 23, 2004, 08:57 pm

I essentially agree with omega470's description of conservativism, but I reject the notion that liberals believe ALL people are good. Liberals believe that people are incapable of fending for themselves, deciding for themselves, and accepting responsibility for themselves.

G. Adams · Jan 23, 2004, 09:10 pm

Firstly, your all allowing liberalism to be blurred with socialism. Liberals are centerist, some of their policies match socialists because they feel that people can only be free if they get equal oppurtunities.

He is correct in highlighting conservatism's view of humanity is negative. It remains focused around law and order policies, and maintaining the status quo (as in social heiarchy)

I believe, Omega, that you are a neo-liberal, as in Thatcher and Reagan style. A strong state (not neccesarally large though, Thatchers cut hundreds of thousands from the civil service, one thing I do like her for), minimising on restrictions on business, lowering taxes etc

The problem is that the two major parties, in Britain and the USA, absorb the ideas of those around them at different times. So people, who because they support, for example Republicans for their low tax and easy ride for business, assume they are conservative because thats how Republicans are generally seen, but it isn't the case. It's equally applicable to the Democrats. As has happened on this thread, people have quickly blended liberalism into socialism, when they are very far apart in reality. This is because the Democrats picked up on working class issues, and Roosevelt 50 years ago was pursuing a temporary social democrat agenda, but overall the Democrat Party remains a liberal (of the Gladstone streak) party.

This is what happens when your political education comes from the media. Pick up a book on politics, please. And then for once people complaining about me being a communist would have some idea what they are talking about.

castille · Jan 24, 2004, 01:02 am

I'm more of the belief that there are 3 kinds of people in this world: leaders, sheep, and "independents". Leaders lead, sheep follow, independents just wander around.

Impenitent · Jan 24, 2004, 09:27 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,)
I'm more of the belief that there are 3 kinds of people in this world: leaders, sheep, and "independents". Leaders lead, sheep follow, independents just wander around.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

and leeches and preachers who screw thing up for everyone else

omega470 · Jan 28, 2004, 04:52 pm

Liberals are not centrists. Centrists are centrists

G. Adams · Jan 28, 2004, 08:32 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (omega470,)
Liberals are not centrists. Centrists are centrists<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Take a look at a political spectrum.

PeterAngelo · Jan 28, 2004, 09:44 pm

Conservatives think everyone are like them - Skull and Bones pirates.

Liberals want everyone to be like them - humanistic.

It is obvious that some people go to horror movies to get pointers -they root for the killer.

Some people are naturally averse to violence.

That is why the war machine is a republican love and liberals hate it because it only produces mass graves.

People who support the war mentality reveal their true character and should be locked up. They are serial murderers in their hearts.

That is the true meaning of Skull and Bones. The pirate code of plunder and waste - with no regard for life or the environment. They do not believe in a future ( they won't be there) and don't believe in any afterlife ( although they use the concept to control idiots).

The problem with liberals is they are the idiots who think there is a way to deal with pirates other than kill them.

Sorry.

We need a third option - real laws and real justice.

Since we are locked into the Judeo-Christian fantasy with the Ten Commandments, we need to add five more for "Caesar".

Since we have to render to Caesar, Caesar should be required to reciprocate by having to obey his commandments.

I suggest:

Commandments to Caesar not to abuse his authority? The eleventh through fifteenth commandments must be.

XI) Do not lie, cheat or steal from the sheep in your flock.

XII) Do not institute policies that harm or enslave the sheep.

XIII) Govern in the light of day conferring with those representatives who, by example of decades of proven good character, education, and life experience, entitle them to speak for all good sheep.

XIV) Apply the rule of law mercifully and with justice for all.

XV) Be the first to obey all the laws that promote the health and welfare of the neediest, and protects the flock from evil intent and deliberate harm.

I would support that Federal Judge from Alabama who wants the Ten Commandments in front of the Courthouse. If they add the last five commandments we have a deal.

That is all we really need.

I have a law degree and have studied years of history, government, mass communications, science, and electronics.

Our system, as it is written on paper, is perfect.

The only flaw is the corrupt nature of humans and the damage they cause.

Our leaders should not be given a pass, or presumed to be anything but corrupt.

We have to approach it that way and watch them like the thieves they (and we)are.

The symbiotic relationship between church and state is obvious. All that is missing is the ethics and the deliberate decision to do right.

Impenitent · Jan 29, 2004, 12:32 am

who needs the herd? First question of conscience...

Zeebadee · Jan 29, 2004, 01:26 am

"I have a law degree and have studied years of history, government, mass communications, science, and electronics."

I have a question:

Which of the above was the means to the insulated, lofty position you now seem to occupy? How did you manage to elevate yourself to the position where you can give a thumbs up or down to the direction that society evolves? Oops, I guess that's two questions.

JustinGilmore · Jan 29, 2004, 01:27 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (fellvoice21,)
Despite all the rather interesting surveys out there which try to determine ideological standings (with questionable results), it seems to me there's but one essential difference between a conservative and a liberal.

(I prefer to use the terms conservative and liberal rather than Democratic and Republican, because so often the parties stray from their promises to appeal to voters, or don't have definable platforms. Term limits all the way!)

A conservative believes that people are essentially bad; a liberal believes people are essentially good. This explains socialism. Liberals believe a human will work out of compassion and ethics, even if he doesn't have any motivation; thus, we have communism. Conservatives realize man is lazy at heart, and thus advocates capitalism, which forces man to work for status and survival.

Thoughts, anyone?<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

My thought is that this steriotype post is terrible. First off, you're saying all Liberals are socialist, which isnt true. Secondly, you're stating that all conservitives belive man is lazy by nature, which again, is not true. To try to label each group would be impossible, due to huge differences within each group. The only thing that's really safe to say is that liberals are about anti corperation, and personal freedom. Wilst conservitives usually side with corperations, and indeed trust these corperations, a lot.

Bayou · Jan 29, 2004, 04:43 am

And then Justin their are the Canadain Liberals who side with the corporations.....yes I dont quite understand it myslef but then again thats why I am voting NDP.
Socialism all the way, we gave the liberals their issues that they stole from us and we can take them back now (in Canada anyways we can).

PeterAngelo · Jan 29, 2004, 04:03 pm

Zeebadee:

All of the above. It takes a lot of time and effort, but recorded history is a soap opera that is unbroken. Patterns of behavior that remain unchanged millenia after millenia ahould be a hint as to what to expect from the future.

It may be scary - but we like scary the most.

Learn to enjoy life as an exciting nightmare, or horror movie, and it takes on a new feel and look.

It is more realistic than a romantic comedy or anything else.

Choose your role and play it to the fullest.

Victim? (liberal)

Serial killer? (ocnservative)

FLIP FOR IT.

Eulux · Jan 30, 2004, 01:32 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (omega470)
I'd tend to agree with you, fellvoice, in the simplest sense of your statement. You are right on that capitalism is a form of government that basically does not cater to the lazy, where socialism does.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Socialism doesn't cater to the lazy, first off. Socialism is infact a bit more of a hard working environment...under capitalism, there are bound to be those out of work. Under socialism, there would be a job for everyone, as well as the benefits that come with socialism. Conservatives being charitable? Take a long look at most conservatives stance on social programs (ie food stamps and universal healthcare).

Hmmm...I have to disagree with the whole liberals think that people are good idea. I think there is room for both good and bad in man, but that is as obvious as stating what makes up water. Omega, you state that the bad cannot advance, yet the corruption in any capitalistic society is blatant. One mearly has to look at the CEO, CFO, and other high ranking officers of most major corporations to realize that. Oil is a great example...

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (PeterAngelo)
I have a law degree and have studied years of history, government, mass communications, science, and electronics.

Our system, as it is written on paper, is perfect.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Let's see. You were trained by the system to exploit the system, for that's all most lawyers do...of course you wouldn't see any flaws! Peter, for an educated man, you have alot to learn! Capitalism will always have someone forced into submission, thus creating a general feeling of jealousy and dislike. Take a look at communism on paper, you won't find that.

There's my thoughts...be they what they may.

Zeebadee · Jan 30, 2004, 02:49 am

"The only flaw is the corrupt nature of humans and the damage they cause.

Our leaders should not be given a pass, or presumed to be anything but corrupt."

Interesting to hear a lawyer make such comments. Yet I'm sure you would support the use of any loophole, trick, or technicality to get even a known criminal a pass for even the worst of crimes. Or you'd have no problem filing a multi-million dollar lawsuit to help a woman collect money for spilling hot coffee on herself. All for a fee, of course. If society is becoming more corrupt, it's the lawyers, working on contingency fees, that are greasing the skids. I do enjoy your posts though, and agree with you on a lot of what you say.

PeterAngelo · Jan 30, 2004, 04:54 am

My son, brother and nephew are civil rights attorneys fighting for the rights of the disabled.

Certainly not for the money - there is little to none.

Lawyers who do that spend 90% of their time fighting the BAR. The system has been corrupted to the point that the BAR is in place to keep rats and eliminate conscientous lawyers.

That is the truth - so help me god.

I could make the case again, but it can be found on other posts.

RESPONSIBLE Capitalism could work if the policies were pro-equality.

It is the conscious choice of the established political hierarchy to promote great disparity in wealth, division, and a war economy.

If it is impossible to have a world society based on equity and responsibility - we might as well end it all now and quit watching this horror movie of a life.

That "coffee" case is a red herring.

Corporate mentality wants you to hate Ralph Nadar for exposing the "cost-benefit ratio" that pits human life agains a $.50 part, or puts children under machinery until their hands get chopped off and then throw them in the alley to beg.

That is how it was until LAWYERS, who were often murdered by Pinkerton agents, fought for YOU.

Please understand the concept.

Thanks for the compliments, and I hope we all make it.

Peace.

If it weren't for contingency fee agreements the por would never have a prayer of being compensated for damages. It costs at least $10,000.00 to get a simple car accident case to court.

If it is lost - so is the ten grand.

Neocons have you brainwashed. Most of the politicians calling for tort reform are bought and paid for by the corporations that want to feed you mad cows.

CAVEAT EMPTOR

Buyer beware!!!!!!!

sean327 · Jan 30, 2004, 11:37 am

I consider myself to be a conservative.

I believe in the concept of personal responibility, (something that seems to be lacking these days)

I believe that government should have a limited role in the daily lives of it's citizens.( from my experience liberals that I know think that government knows what is best for it's citizens) I believe that I know best how to spend my earnings, how to educate my children, and what is overall best for my family, not some career politician in Washington or the State capitol, which in my case is Phoenix.

Most of all I believe that the Constitution as written is the final say on all matters pertaining to the governance of this country, not some activist court interpreting it to fit their adgenda.
I am strict constructionalist, I believe the Constitution as written by those great men who were centuries ahead of their time, should not be messed with. The "Living Document" argument is pure horses#$t, used by intelectualy lazy people out to destroy the greatest human experiment to date.

Jan 23, 2004, 04:30 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
onphiya Sedimentary Rock Posts: 7	[font=Georgia]i, too, prefer conversative/liberal as opposed to democratic/republican. i'm more of a liberal, i would say, but according to your definition i'm conservative. capitalism rockz![/font] <span style='font-family:Georgia'><span style='font-size:9pt;line-height:100%'>be thankful for everything; soon there'll be nothing. be question everything. every stripe, every star, every word spoken. everything.</span></span>

Jan 23, 2004, 05:43 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
tusaki Playful Location: Groningen, the Netherlands Posts: 805	In that case it would make me a Liberal, because I choose to believe that (most of) mankind is inherently good. If it was not, how can I justify my own actions and believes? I also think man is ignorant and usually bases his actions on the greater good of the people he is closely assosiated with (usually few) instead of the people who are far away (usually many). Although the latter is logical and may be considered darwinistic (help the ppl who are in a position to help you to increase your chances of survival). Anyway.. im starting to ramble.. nvm me. Hope & Dream

Jan 23, 2004, 08:57 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
jhfenton Molten Ash Location: Norwood, OH Posts: 28	I essentially agree with omega470's description of conservativism, but I reject the notion that liberals believe ALL people are good. Liberals believe that people are incapable of fending for themselves, deciding for themselves, and accepting responsibility for themselves. Politics, Firearms, Finance, Marathons Check out my blog, <span style='color:green'>Politics, etc.</span>

Jan 23, 2004, 09:10 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,161	Firstly, your all allowing liberalism to be blurred with socialism. Liberals are centerist, some of their policies match socialists because they feel that people can only be free if they get equal oppurtunities. He is correct in highlighting conservatism's view of humanity is negative. It remains focused around law and order policies, and maintaining the status quo (as in social heiarchy) I believe, Omega, that you are a neo-liberal, as in Thatcher and Reagan style. A strong state (not neccesarally large though, Thatchers cut hundreds of thousands from the civil service, one thing I do like her for), minimising on restrictions on business, lowering taxes etc The problem is that the two major parties, in Britain and the USA, absorb the ideas of those around them at different times. So people, who because they support, for example Republicans for their low tax and easy ride for business, assume they are conservative because thats how Republicans are generally seen, but it isn't the case. It's equally applicable to the Democrats. As has happened on this thread, people have quickly blended liberalism into socialism, when they are very far apart in reality. This is because the Democrats picked up on working class issues, and Roosevelt 50 years ago was pursuing a temporary social democrat agenda, but overall the Democrat Party remains a liberal (of the Gladstone streak) party. This is what happens when your political education comes from the media. Pick up a book on politics, please. And then for once people complaining about me being a communist would have some idea what they are talking about. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Jan 24, 2004, 01:02 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	I'm more of the belief that there are 3 kinds of people in this world: leaders, sheep, and "independents". Leaders lead, sheep follow, independents just wander around. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Jan 23, 2004, 04:19 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
fellvoice21 Sedimentary Rock Posts: 3	Despite all the rather interesting surveys out there which try to determine ideological standings (with questionable results), it seems to me there's but one essential difference between a conservative and a liberal. (I prefer to use the terms conservative and liberal rather than Democratic and Republican, because so often the parties stray from their promises to appeal to voters, or don't have definable platforms. Term limits all the way!) A conservative believes that people are essentially bad; a liberal believes people are essentially good. This explains socialism. Liberals believe a human will work out of compassion and ethics, even if he doesn't have any motivation; thus, we have communism. Conservatives realize man is lazy at heart, and thus advocates capitalism, which forces man to work for status and survival. Thoughts, anyone?

Jan 23, 2004, 07:03 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
omega470 Sedimentary Rock Posts: 6	I'd tend to agree with you, fellvoice, in the simplest sense of your statement. You are right on that capitalism is a form of government that basically does not cater to the lazy, where socialism does. Also right on is the idea that conservatives and liberals have very different views on humanity, but I'd like to refine your definition: You said that conservatives think people are bad and liberals think they are good. Speaking as a self-proclaimed conservative, I'd disagree with the idea that people are bad. I think that bad people definately exist, but there is also an inherrent good in human nature. Amd its this trust in the good that spurs conservatives to be advocates for charity, a concept that only works when used by the good to help the needy. While it's definately true that the liberal attitude is that people are good, it is that ALL people are good, and I'd have to say logically, historically, and through my own experience, not everyone is a good person. And it's for this very reason that theories based on the idea that all people are good, like communism, ultimately fail. It only takes one person, in communism, to screw everyone else. In capitalism, it takes that person to screw themselves. So, I guess what I'm saying is, I totally think there's good in humanity, but people also need to realize that there's also bad, and thus capitalism works in that good people can advance and bad generally can't.

Jan 24, 2004, 09:27 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (castille,) I'm more of the belief that there are 3 kinds of people in this world: leaders, sheep, and "independents". Leaders lead, sheep follow, independents just wander around.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> and leeches and preachers who screw thing up for everyone else "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Jan 28, 2004, 04:52 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
omega470 Sedimentary Rock Posts: 6	Liberals are not centrists. Centrists are centrists

Jan 28, 2004, 08:32 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,161	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (omega470,) Liberals are not centrists. Centrists are centrists<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Take a look at a political spectrum. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Jan 28, 2004, 09:44 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
PeterAngelo Igneous Magma Posts: 169	Conservatives think everyone are like them - Skull and Bones pirates. Liberals want everyone to be like them - humanistic. It is obvious that some people go to horror movies to get pointers -they root for the killer. Some people are naturally averse to violence. That is why the war machine is a republican love and liberals hate it because it only produces mass graves. People who support the war mentality reveal their true character and should be locked up. They are serial murderers in their hearts. That is the true meaning of Skull and Bones. The pirate code of plunder and waste - with no regard for life or the environment. They do not believe in a future ( they won't be there) and don't believe in any afterlife ( although they use the concept to control idiots). The problem with liberals is they are the idiots who think there is a way to deal with pirates other than kill them. Sorry. We need a third option - real laws and real justice. Since we are locked into the Judeo-Christian fantasy with the Ten Commandments, we need to add five more for "Caesar". Since we have to render to Caesar, Caesar should be required to reciprocate by having to obey his commandments. I suggest: Commandments to Caesar not to abuse his authority? The eleventh through fifteenth commandments must be. XI) Do not lie, cheat or steal from the sheep in your flock. XII) Do not institute policies that harm or enslave the sheep. XIII) Govern in the light of day conferring with those representatives who, by example of decades of proven good character, education, and life experience, entitle them to speak for all good sheep. XIV) Apply the rule of law mercifully and with justice for all. XV) Be the first to obey all the laws that promote the health and welfare of the neediest, and protects the flock from evil intent and deliberate harm. I would support that Federal Judge from Alabama who wants the Ten Commandments in front of the Courthouse. If they add the last five commandments we have a deal. That is all we really need. I have a law degree and have studied years of history, government, mass communications, science, and electronics. Our system, as it is written on paper, is perfect. The only flaw is the corrupt nature of humans and the damage they cause. Our leaders should not be given a pass, or presumed to be anything but corrupt. We have to approach it that way and watch them like the thieves they (and we)are. The symbiotic relationship between church and state is obvious. All that is missing is the ethics and the deliberate decision to do right.

Jan 29, 2004, 12:32 am	#12 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	who needs the herd? First question of conscience... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Jan 29, 2004, 01:26 am	#13 (permalink) (top)
Zeebadee Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,799	"I have a law degree and have studied years of history, government, mass communications, science, and electronics." I have a question: Which of the above was the means to the insulated, lofty position you now seem to occupy? How did you manage to elevate yourself to the position where you can give a thumbs up or down to the direction that society evolves? Oops, I guess that's two questions. "Everybody knows that the boat is leaking Everybody knows that the captain lied." - Leonard Cohen

Jan 29, 2004, 01:27 am	#14 (permalink) (top)
JustinGilmore Molten Ash Location: US, California Posts: 44	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (fellvoice21,) Despite all the rather interesting surveys out there which try to determine ideological standings (with questionable results), it seems to me there's but one essential difference between a conservative and a liberal. (I prefer to use the terms conservative and liberal rather than Democratic and Republican, because so often the parties stray from their promises to appeal to voters, or don't have definable platforms. Term limits all the way!) A conservative believes that people are essentially bad; a liberal believes people are essentially good. This explains socialism. Liberals believe a human will work out of compassion and ethics, even if he doesn't have any motivation; thus, we have communism. Conservatives realize man is lazy at heart, and thus advocates capitalism, which forces man to work for status and survival. Thoughts, anyone?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> My thought is that this steriotype post is terrible. First off, you're saying all Liberals are socialist, which isnt true. Secondly, you're stating that all conservitives belive man is lazy by nature, which again, is not true. To try to label each group would be impossible, due to huge differences within each group. The only thing that's really safe to say is that liberals are about anti corperation, and personal freedom. Wilst conservitives usually side with corperations, and indeed trust these corperations, a lot. ...weird

Jan 29, 2004, 04:43 am	#15 (permalink) (top)
Bayou Igneous Magma Location: Calgary Alberta Canada Posts: 154	And then Justin their are the Canadain Liberals who side with the corporations.....yes I dont quite understand it myslef but then again thats why I am voting NDP. Socialism all the way, we gave the liberals their issues that they stole from us and we can take them back now (in Canada anyways we can). <span style='font-size:16pt;line-height:100%'><span style='font-family:Impact'><span style='color:green'>Vote NDP "The independence of art for the revolution. "The revolution for the complete liberation of art!"</span></span></span>

Jan 29, 2004, 04:03 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
PeterAngelo Igneous Magma Posts: 169	Zeebadee: All of the above. It takes a lot of time and effort, but recorded history is a soap opera that is unbroken. Patterns of behavior that remain unchanged millenia after millenia ahould be a hint as to what to expect from the future. It may be scary - but we like scary the most. Learn to enjoy life as an exciting nightmare, or horror movie, and it takes on a new feel and look. It is more realistic than a romantic comedy or anything else. Choose your role and play it to the fullest. Victim? (liberal) Serial killer? (ocnservative) FLIP FOR IT.

Jan 30, 2004, 01:32 am	#17 (permalink) (top)
Eulux Molten Ash Location: houston Posts: 27	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (omega470) I'd tend to agree with you, fellvoice, in the simplest sense of your statement. You are right on that capitalism is a form of government that basically does not cater to the lazy, where socialism does.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Socialism doesn't cater to the lazy, first off. Socialism is infact a bit more of a hard working environment...under capitalism, there are bound to be those out of work. Under socialism, there would be a job for everyone, as well as the benefits that come with socialism. Conservatives being charitable? Take a long look at most conservatives stance on social programs (ie food stamps and universal healthcare). Hmmm...I have to disagree with the whole liberals think that people are good idea. I think there is room for both good and bad in man, but that is as obvious as stating what makes up water. Omega, you state that the bad cannot advance, yet the corruption in any capitalistic society is blatant. One mearly has to look at the CEO, CFO, and other high ranking officers of most major corporations to realize that. Oil is a great example... </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (PeterAngelo) I have a law degree and have studied years of history, government, mass communications, science, and electronics. Our system, as it is written on paper, is perfect.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Let's see. You were trained by the system to exploit the system, for that's all most lawyers do...of course you wouldn't see any flaws! Peter, for an educated man, you have alot to learn! Capitalism will always have someone forced into submission, thus creating a general feeling of jealousy and dislike. Take a look at communism on paper, you won't find that. There's my thoughts...be they what they may. "Man acts as though he were the shaper and master of language, while in fact language remains the master of man." -Heidegger www.rorta.com -knowledge is power...

Jan 30, 2004, 02:49 am	#18 (permalink) (top)
Zeebadee Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,799	"The only flaw is the corrupt nature of humans and the damage they cause. Our leaders should not be given a pass, or presumed to be anything but corrupt." Interesting to hear a lawyer make such comments. Yet I'm sure you would support the use of any loophole, trick, or technicality to get even a known criminal a pass for even the worst of crimes. Or you'd have no problem filing a multi-million dollar lawsuit to help a woman collect money for spilling hot coffee on herself. All for a fee, of course. If society is becoming more corrupt, it's the lawyers, working on contingency fees, that are greasing the skids. I do enjoy your posts though, and agree with you on a lot of what you say. "Everybody knows that the boat is leaking Everybody knows that the captain lied." - Leonard Cohen

Jan 30, 2004, 04:54 am	#19 (permalink) (top)
PeterAngelo Igneous Magma Posts: 169	My son, brother and nephew are civil rights attorneys fighting for the rights of the disabled. Certainly not for the money - there is little to none. Lawyers who do that spend 90% of their time fighting the BAR. The system has been corrupted to the point that the BAR is in place to keep rats and eliminate conscientous lawyers. That is the truth - so help me god. I could make the case again, but it can be found on other posts. RESPONSIBLE Capitalism could work if the policies were pro-equality. It is the conscious choice of the established political hierarchy to promote great disparity in wealth, division, and a war economy. If it is impossible to have a world society based on equity and responsibility - we might as well end it all now and quit watching this horror movie of a life. That "coffee" case is a red herring. Corporate mentality wants you to hate Ralph Nadar for exposing the "cost-benefit ratio" that pits human life agains a $.50 part, or puts children under machinery until their hands get chopped off and then throw them in the alley to beg. That is how it was until LAWYERS, who were often murdered by Pinkerton agents, fought for YOU. Please understand the concept. Thanks for the compliments, and I hope we all make it. Peace. If it weren't for contingency fee agreements the por would never have a prayer of being compensated for damages. It costs at least $10,000.00 to get a simple car accident case to court. If it is lost - so is the ten grand. Neocons have you brainwashed. Most of the politicians calling for tort reform are bought and paid for by the corporations that want to feed you mad cows. CAVEAT EMPTOR Buyer beware!!!!!!!

Jan 30, 2004, 11:37 am	#20 (permalink) (top)
sean327 Sedimentary Rock Posts: 4	I consider myself to be a conservative. I believe in the concept of personal responibility, (something that seems to be lacking these days) I believe that government should have a limited role in the daily lives of it's citizens.( from my experience liberals that I know think that government knows what is best for it's citizens) I believe that I know best how to spend my earnings, how to educate my children, and what is overall best for my family, not some career politician in Washington or the State capitol, which in my case is Phoenix. Most of all I believe that the Constitution as written is the final say on all matters pertaining to the governance of this country, not some activist court interpreting it to fit their adgenda. I am strict constructionalist, I believe the Constitution as written by those great men who were centuries ahead of their time, should not be messed with. The "Living Document" argument is pure horses#$t, used by intelectualy lazy people out to destroy the greatest human experiment to date.