Can You Hear Me Now?!?

[RickSp]

Great clip. Thanks.

Rare enough to hear the truth spoken from the floor of the House.

[Mike]

I agree. That was a great speech.

[Osborn F Enready]

Dieval, that speech is directly addressed at a Congressman who said he does not understand why the people don't accept what the elected officials are saying about the draft. In essence, why don't we trust what the officials are saying.

Does this clarify the speech a little better for you?

[gr8fuldaniel]

Do you think one of you Ohio residents you could email Tim Ryan? Contact. I am not a constituent, from Ohio.

I tried to ask for the HR number he was referring to in the Oct. 5 2004 speech in question. He has a link to this empassioned speech on his website.

It has been my experience that they will send me a polite form letter of denial due to me not being a constituent.

I would like to read the House Resolution, to see what kind of fast one they are trying to pull.

I remember they were firing up the selective service, and staffing it and throwing lots of money at it. But denying that it meant they would reinstitute the draft.

Side Note:
We need to send Ryan to have a little Man to Man chat with Blackwell about arrogantly going forward with the electoral college before the recount. Theres a debate I would pay to see......... And I am poor. :)

[Dieval]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Dieval, that speech is directly addressed at a Congressman who said he does not understand why the people don't accept what the elected officials are saying about the draft. In essence, why don't we trust what the officials are saying. Does this clarify the speech a little better for you?

Why is he ranting and raving about the president when the draft bill was started by democrats(I forget their names off the top of my head)?

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: Dieval Why is he ranting and raving about the president when the draft bill was started by democrats(I forget their names off the top of my head)?

Do you have a source for that Dieval?
I want to see the draft.

[gr8fuldaniel]

OK, I found this. Apparently Its H.R. 163. I will have to do some more searching. Thats a good article though.

[gr8fuldaniel]

H.r. 163 Failed to pass on Oct 5 2004.
It did not recieve the 2/3 votes needed.

[Dieval]

Well, since the clip really doesn't say what bill he's ranting about and if it truely is about the draft, I'd bet it's either -
Senate Bill 89(PDF file), introduced Jan 7, 2003 by Senator Fritz Hollings (D-South Carolina)
OR
HR 163(PDF also) - note the names on the bill also introduced the same day that Senator Hollings introduced SB 89 - Representatives Charles Rangel (D-New York) , Jim McDermott (D-Washington) , John Conyers (D-Michigan) , John Lewis (D-Georgia) , Pete Stark (D-California) and
Neil Abercrombie (D-Hawaii).

If it really is about the draft, it would appear that he's rather misinformed about who's trying to instate the draft.

[Osborn F Enready]

WE shall see, I hope there is not an additional draft, after the back-door draft already taking place. I am not here defending Democrats Dieval, I am pointing out his answer to "why we do not trust the officials".

I think the answer was very clear, the people feel as though they are being lied to, because they are.

[Dieval]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready I hope there is not an additional draft, after the back-door draft already taking place.

Please explain.

[Osborn F Enready]

Deival, do you understand how the military works as far as division between active duty full-time, active duty part-time, and non-active duty reserves?

http://www.todaysmilitary.com/wii/t5_wii_full_time.php

FULL-TIME ACTIVE DUTY

ARMY
The most powerful ground force in the entire world, the United States Army upholds the ideals set forth in the U.S. Constitution and acts to support the interests of the United States.


MARINE CORPS
The smallest, most dynamic force in the American Military today, the United States Marine Corps serves as the aggressive tip of the U.S. military spear. It is also the only forward-deployed force designed for expeditionary operations by air, land, or sea.


NAVY
The United States Navy is the largest and most powerful naval force in the world and is equipped to handle operations both on and under the sea, in the air, and on the ground, anywhere around the world.


AIR FORCE
The United States Air Force has the most sophisticated and technologically advanced aircraft in the world today. Combined with the best-trained pilots, ground crews, and other support personnel, the Air Force ensures air superiority and support for virtually every mission undertaken by the U.S. Military.


COAST GUARD
The primary role of the United States Coast Guard is to protect the safety of our nation’s coast and waterways. Under this mandate, the Coast Guard performs a variety of critical missions, including Maritime Safety, Mobility and Security, National Defense and the Protection of Natural Resources.

For PART-TIME ACTIVE DUTY, there are these:

Army Reserve
Army National Guard

Marine Reserve

Naval Reserve

Air Force Reserve
Air National Guard

Coast Guard Reserve

PART-TIME NON-ACTIVE DUTY

Any service member, unless under special program or disclaimer, serves a period of time in non-active, part-time if required reserve status.

Since the war was so poorly planned, there were not enough troops available in the full-time active military to cover both the attack force, and the after attack policing and security. This has caused a placement of many active-duty reservists, national guardsmen in to the frontline battle in Iraq.

Even with this effort of placing reservists in front-line units, there are still massive shortages in border security, and policing. This brings us to the "backdoor-draft".

Resistance to Backdoor Draft

By John Tiffany

Desperate for manpower with which to fight its projected 25-year “war on terrorism” in Iraq and elsewhere, the Bush administration has resorted to several measures just short of military conscription.

One of these is the “Stop Loss Program,” a scheme to force soldiers to remain in the service after their contractual obligation has been fulfilled.

Another idea is to reactivate what is called the Individual Ready Reserve (IRR). But both programs are encountering resistance from the GIs. As reported in The Army Times, about 30 percent of the IRR soldiers who have been called to active duty failed to report for mobilization.

The IRR is a manpower pool in the Ready Reserve. It consists primarily of individuals who have had training and have served previously in the “Active” component or the Selected Reserve and have some period of a military obligation remaining.

IRR soldiers are not part of a reserve unit, do not get paid and do not attend monthly reserve training. These soldiers have completed their active duty enlistment but are within eight years of when they entered the military. They can be recalled to duty if needed.

The Army’s recent call-up of 5,600 soldiers from the IRR emphasizes the
demands the administration’s poor planning has placed on America’s most important military resource—our troops. These soldiers, who have
completed their active duty enlistment but are within eight years of when they entered the military, must now leave their jobs and families behind and mobilize for active duty. Whether there will be more call-ups is anyone’s guess.

Many former soldiers, however, have submitted papers for “delay and exemption” consideration, claiming personal and professional matters are
preventing them from showing up.

CASE IN POINT

A case in point is Master Sgt. Luis Jaime Trevino, 57, who is afflicted with skin cancer, is partially deaf and suffers from high blood pressure. Uncle Sam still wants him mobilized for Operation Iraqi Freedom.

When he got his orders to report to active duty, “I was very shocked,” Trevino said. Though Trevino is willing to serve again, he wonders why the military wants him. “I’m honored to go, but I’m disabled and I’m too old,” he said. “If I do not execute these orders, I go to jail.”

Reservists up to the age of 60 are being activated, said Public Affairs Specialist Julia Collins of the Human Resources Command in St. Louis.
“I know many guys who are in that position,” she said. “It’s not unusual.”

More than 1,000 IRR members submitted “delay and exemption” packets containing documentation verifying their situation. The leading reasons IRR soldiers request delays and exemptions are: medical causes or disabilities; administrative mix-ups; financial hardship; being sole caretaker for children or elderly parents and completing higher education.

Dieval, no matter how you look at it, they need more soldiers. Since they have lied, and said they were not trying to re-instill the draft, and then got caught rounding up the draft board members and issuing preparation notices to previous draft board members, they are now forced to post-pone the draft as long as possible. Since they need soldiers, they have to get them from somewhere, so they started calling up IRR and Reserve members. They have also initiated stop-loss. They are also pounding high-shcools, malls and recreational areas with recruiters, to try to fill the gap of needed soldiers, in a voluntary nature. So far, recruiters are coming up far short of their goals.

So, where do the soldiers come from then?

Can't get them from the International Community
Can't get anymore from the full-time active-duty forces
Can't get anymore from the part-time active-duty forces
Can't get anymore from the non-active duty forces in IRR
Can't get anymore from the stop-loss program

hmmmmmmm, golly, what options are left.......

[Dieval]

I'm still wondering how this is a "back-door draft". Nothing you posted referenced that topic. Nothing you posted is anything new or out of the ordinary or not part of war. You may not like it, but it's nothing special.

http://www.defenselink.mil/ra/second...tml#individual What is the Individual Ready Reserve (IRR)? Individual Ready Reserve (IRR), a manpower pool in the Ready Reserve, primarily consists of: Individuals who have had training, have served previously in the Active component or the Selected Reserve, and have some period of a military obligation remaining. IRR members are in an active status, but do not perform regularly scheduled training.

Here's a link to the stop/loss message from the army - https://perscomnd04.army.mil/MILPERm...3?OpenDocument

With that said, nothing about this even remotely similary to a draft. A draft is a compulsory enrollment in the armed forces..These soldiers are already in the armed forces. The term you're using to describe this action is inaccurate, at best, and is only being used to try and invoke sympathy for the soldiers and to show how bad you believe our gorvernment is. :rolleyes:

We don't have to like the stop loss / stop move programs, but they're a part of life in the military. It happened durring the first gulf war -

http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn20...ss#implemented WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME A STOP LOSS/STOP MOVE WAS IMPLEMENTED THIS LARGE? The Marine Corps implemented a Stop Loss Policy of this magnitude during the Persian Gulf Crisis in the 1990 and 1991 timeframe.

- and will probably happen in the next war.

Get over it and stop crying foul.

[Osborn F Enready]

Dieval, I am definitely trying to help people feel sympathetic toward the soldiers, after all ,they are FIGHTING AND DYING for what they assumed would be the best intrest of this country.

Also, did you notice how when I said "Back-Door Draft" I was referring to the tag line Kerry used? That is because that is what people associate with what I am talking about. Technically, you are right, it is not conscription. It is a practice that hasn't been done since Vietnam however, and therfore you could see why people are confused, since all of a sudden we are reversing our policy.

The thing you fail to even acknowledge, is that this isn't the topic of discussion in the recruiters office.
Recruiters, recruit, since that is their job and they have set goals to achieve. When you talk to the recruiter you hear about the G.I. Bill, signing bonuses, 1 month paid vacation a year, full benefits, on-the-job training, advancement potential, PROPAGANDA!

I served, I saw it, I lived it. You say it is all good, since you shouldn't sign a contract you don't understand, and I agree, but that DOES NOT MAKE THE PRACTICE RIGHT!

Democrats and Republicans are both guilty for this mess, but the ultimate decision was Bush, and he holds the lionshare of the blame. We shall see Dieval, and I hope I am wrong. I don't think I will be though, so mark your calendar so you can rub it in.

[Dieval]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready It is a practice that hasn't been done since Vietnam however,

I'm not following...did you completely miss my USMC link that said it happened in the first Gulf War?

I didn't say it's a good thing, but it's nothing new and people should be well aware of what happens when they join the military. If they're not aware of all the consequences, well, sorry for them.

If I sign a contract and don't read the fine print, who's going to feel sorry for me?