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Osborn F Enready · Dec 17, 2004, 05:59 pm

Bishop, while I agree on some points such as:

whenever a country has had large current account deficits and federal deficits, their currency faced strong pressures for devaluation.

( I agree, and where does this "pressure" come from? Is this not natural since deficit shows that someone doesn't know how to balance a budget with money that EXISTS.)

we have been fortunate in this regard because the USD is the reserve currency of choice throughout the world - meaning that we have been able to finance our debt with ease. that is the primary factor separating us from virtually every other economy in the world.

(Well, in my opinion you are exactly right here. This is what makes us different than any other country in the world. Since this is our single most attributable factor to our unique success, do you not think this practice deserves some hard scrutiny as to how, why, and who benefits from this in the long run? Should this single point not be viewed along many lines, both economic and ideological? Every single decision that is made by our government is made in the name of the people, and this certifies that every decision concerning the U.S. Dollar is a concern of the people. This is where most of my issues with the current system come in. We have got to look at the practice, when it started, and what were the true issues that led to its inception to the system overall.
I believe the true issues are evident somewhat if investigated, therefore I wholeheartedly am anti-central bank under federal control, especially using non-backed fiat. From the simple standpoint of foreign investors, being able to buy majority shares of U.S. vital companies and properties is a questionable practice to say the least. This would be an ideal way to lead an attack that would truly devastate a nation entirely, both economicly and militarily.

You have truly touched on, and worded well, one of my biggest problems with this system.

The establishment believes that the longer wecan extend our economy on false backed fiat, the longer they can continue to siphon off the remainder of actual gold and silver, while utilizing our land resources to rebuild the world through reparations, fixed trade and the labeled intent of "spreading democracy". This is a plan of globalization, and along the lines of Utopic one world government. This was only allowed to happen because they PROMISED the people something they couldn't have that was based entirely on bad fiscal policy,as well as being unconstitutional, called the New Deal.

The people were promised socialist (not communist) designs from a capitalist system. This was....
Credit, for easy lending to build homes. (based on non-backed fiat)
Jobs in the reconstruction of America. (being paid to work for the government, in non-backed fiat.)
Social Security (promises based on the ability to produce non-backed fiat.)
Medicare ( promises based on non-backed fiat, AND a step to control drugs federally.)
Public Schooling ( backed by non-backed fiat, AND a step to control education requirements.)
Public Works and Transportation (backed by non-backed fiat, AND a step to create laws for all states.)

What we are seeing today, is the fruition of this work. We have a very built up civilization (though many aspects are corrupt) yet we have no control over our destiny or our means of production. We all know in order to guarantee safety, a nation must have a means of production in order to sustain and provide during times global allies do not exist, should it come to that. We have a bloated budget that cannot sustain itself without funds pouring in to keep it afloat, since it has no solid backer. We have basicly a situation ripe for attack in both economic and ideological structure, due to political divides over these very issues, which were falsely created from a system using a false backer.)

if foreign banks should lose their appetite to buy dollars, we'll have some big problems on our hands.

( Alan Greenspan just gave a speech to international investors and backers, explaining just that. He sees it as being very probable under certain prediction scenarios, and I believe it could be a sign that the Euro may be gaining reputation as a solid competitor to the U.S. Dollar.)

meanwhile we have too many useless regulations/taxes here at home which limits incentives to develop here.

( I agree, but I differ on why the regulations exist, and the reason for them. I believe the establishment has quite a job managing the illusion of "all is well".)

bishop · Dec 17, 2004, 06:16 pm

there were lots of problems before fiat as well, including global financial crises... imo, no system is necessarily better than the other - it's how you manage the system that counts. fiat in itself is not a bad thing, but deficit spending mixed with low interest rates is. also, to abolish fiat simply isn't practical - the entire global financial system is built around fiat and the transition costs would make social security look like small potatoes (not to mention that it would significantly disrupt trade in the short to medium term.

central banking was separated from the government for precisely this reason - the framers believed that a separate central bank would curb reckless federal spending by raising interest rates. unfortunately, it hasn't gone that way in reality. it's amazing how quickly bush fucked up everything that was achieved during the clinton years. we were set to eliminate all of our foreign debt in about 10 years - and thanks to that rosy scenario, the dollar was strong. now, it's a totally different story.

i do believe it's possible to reverse this trend, although the debt piled on us during the last 4 years has made it all the more difficult. and frankly, the only way to prevent the system to collapse will be to raise both interest rates as well as taxes. either that or you wait for the financial event horizon to occur. something like a constitutional ammendment to require a balanced budget, or at least a maximum deficit, should be legislated.

Osborn F Enready · Dec 17, 2004, 06:33 pm

Bishop said: also, to abolish fiat simply isn't practical

I say: I never even hinted at this. I was simply stating that fiat that is NOT-BACKED is a recipe for disaster, as we are seeing.

Bishop said: central banking was separated from the government for precisely this reason - the framers believed that a separate central bank would curb reckless federal spending by raising interest rates. unfortunately, it hasn't gone that way in reality.

I say: It is because they weren't dealing in reality when they proposed the idea. The idea is built on lies, and false backed money. It embraces speculation, and frowns on conservative leanings, since debt is necessary to keep the system running on false backed money. It encourages credit, and discourages frugality, it is an orchestrated attempt at federal driving of the market removing the concept of supply and demand. This nation has been kept off balance economically by "police actions" that cost millions in money and blood, to keep afloat the lie called the U.S. Dollar. This has poured money non-stop into defense contractors, and their investors. This is a multi-tentacled mess of corruption all built around non-backed fiat. FIAT is not the problem, it is the backer, and the removal of the accountability of that backer.

Bishop said: frankly, the only way to prevent the system to collapse will be to raise both interest rates as well as taxes. either that or you wait for the financial event horizon to occur. something like a constitutional ammendment to require a balanced budget, or at least a maximum deficit, should be legislated.

I say: We already have a system of accountability called the U.S. Constitution, it is just not being enforced by the people, and the officials are walking away smiling and still collecting a check to boot.
Accountability for crime, treason, fraud and illicit dealings are the only way to stop this, and it will entail "public redress of grievances" or revolution, whichever comes first. An attempt at Constitutional Convention at the Federal level will only result in the removal or voiding of the original document, and the creation of the new global order.
We are on the slippriest slope we have yet seen, and the enemy is the person smiling in the White House.

donkrabbit · Dec 17, 2004, 07:34 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Osborn F Enready

I never even hinted at this. I was simply stating that fiat that is NOT-BACKED is a recipe for disaster, as we are seeing.

All fiat currency, by definition, does not have intrinsic value and is not backed by a commodity of value.

Osborn F Enready · Dec 18, 2004, 02:58 am

Donk, then I am using the wrong terminology here, and I apologize.

Paper money that is backed by secured funds then.

Dec 17, 2004, 05:59 pm	#41 (permalink) (top)
Osborn F Enready Principled Observer Location: Toledo, Ohio Posts: 13,873	Bishop, while I agree on some points such as: whenever a country has had large current account deficits and federal deficits, their currency faced strong pressures for devaluation. ( I agree, and where does this "pressure" come from? Is this not natural since deficit shows that someone doesn't know how to balance a budget with money that EXISTS.) we have been fortunate in this regard because the USD is the reserve currency of choice throughout the world - meaning that we have been able to finance our debt with ease. that is the primary factor separating us from virtually every other economy in the world. (Well, in my opinion you are exactly right here. This is what makes us different than any other country in the world. Since this is our single most attributable factor to our unique success, do you not think this practice deserves some hard scrutiny as to how, why, and who benefits from this in the long run? Should this single point not be viewed along many lines, both economic and ideological? Every single decision that is made by our government is made in the name of the people, and this certifies that every decision concerning the U.S. Dollar is a concern of the people. This is where most of my issues with the current system come in. We have got to look at the practice, when it started, and what were the true issues that led to its inception to the system overall. I believe the true issues are evident somewhat if investigated, therefore I wholeheartedly am anti-central bank under federal control, especially using non-backed fiat. From the simple standpoint of foreign investors, being able to buy majority shares of U.S. vital companies and properties is a questionable practice to say the least. This would be an ideal way to lead an attack that would truly devastate a nation entirely, both economicly and militarily. You have truly touched on, and worded well, one of my biggest problems with this system. The establishment believes that the longer wecan extend our economy on false backed fiat, the longer they can continue to siphon off the remainder of actual gold and silver, while utilizing our land resources to rebuild the world through reparations, fixed trade and the labeled intent of "spreading democracy". This is a plan of globalization, and along the lines of Utopic one world government. This was only allowed to happen because they PROMISED the people something they couldn't have that was based entirely on bad fiscal policy,as well as being unconstitutional, called the New Deal. The people were promised socialist (not communist) designs from a capitalist system. This was.... Credit, for easy lending to build homes. (based on non-backed fiat) Jobs in the reconstruction of America. (being paid to work for the government, in non-backed fiat.) Social Security (promises based on the ability to produce non-backed fiat.) Medicare ( promises based on non-backed fiat, AND a step to control drugs federally.) Public Schooling ( backed by non-backed fiat, AND a step to control education requirements.) Public Works and Transportation (backed by non-backed fiat, AND a step to create laws for all states.) What we are seeing today, is the fruition of this work. We have a very built up civilization (though many aspects are corrupt) yet we have no control over our destiny or our means of production. We all know in order to guarantee safety, a nation must have a means of production in order to sustain and provide during times global allies do not exist, should it come to that. We have a bloated budget that cannot sustain itself without funds pouring in to keep it afloat, since it has no solid backer. We have basicly a situation ripe for attack in both economic and ideological structure, due to political divides over these very issues, which were falsely created from a system using a false backer.) if foreign banks should lose their appetite to buy dollars, we'll have some big problems on our hands. ( Alan Greenspan just gave a speech to international investors and backers, explaining just that. He sees it as being very probable under certain prediction scenarios, and I believe it could be a sign that the Euro may be gaining reputation as a solid competitor to the U.S. Dollar.) meanwhile we have too many useless regulations/taxes here at home which limits incentives to develop here. ( I agree, but I differ on why the regulations exist, and the reason for them. I believe the establishment has quite a job managing the illusion of "all is well".) Petition of Redress of Grievances: http://www.givemeliberty.org/default.htm Canadian Lawsuit Against Their National Banks: http://www.freewebs.com/classaction/ Osborn F. Enready

Dec 17, 2004, 06:33 pm	#43 (permalink) (top)
Osborn F Enready Principled Observer Location: Toledo, Ohio Posts: 13,873	Bishop said: also, to abolish fiat simply isn't practical I say: I never even hinted at this. I was simply stating that fiat that is NOT-BACKED is a recipe for disaster, as we are seeing. Bishop said: central banking was separated from the government for precisely this reason - the framers believed that a separate central bank would curb reckless federal spending by raising interest rates. unfortunately, it hasn't gone that way in reality. I say: It is because they weren't dealing in reality when they proposed the idea. The idea is built on lies, and false backed money. It embraces speculation, and frowns on conservative leanings, since debt is necessary to keep the system running on false backed money. It encourages credit, and discourages frugality, it is an orchestrated attempt at federal driving of the market removing the concept of supply and demand. This nation has been kept off balance economically by "police actions" that cost millions in money and blood, to keep afloat the lie called the U.S. Dollar. This has poured money non-stop into defense contractors, and their investors. This is a multi-tentacled mess of corruption all built around non-backed fiat. FIAT is not the problem, it is the backer, and the removal of the accountability of that backer. Bishop said: frankly, the only way to prevent the system to collapse will be to raise both interest rates as well as taxes. either that or you wait for the financial event horizon to occur. something like a constitutional ammendment to require a balanced budget, or at least a maximum deficit, should be legislated. I say: We already have a system of accountability called the U.S. Constitution, it is just not being enforced by the people, and the officials are walking away smiling and still collecting a check to boot. Accountability for crime, treason, fraud and illicit dealings are the only way to stop this, and it will entail "public redress of grievances" or revolution, whichever comes first. An attempt at Constitutional Convention at the Federal level will only result in the removal or voiding of the original document, and the creation of the new global order. We are on the slippriest slope we have yet seen, and the enemy is the person smiling in the White House. Petition of Redress of Grievances: http://www.givemeliberty.org/default.htm Canadian Lawsuit Against Their National Banks: http://www.freewebs.com/classaction/ Osborn F. Enready

Dec 18, 2004, 02:58 am	#45 (permalink) (top)
Osborn F Enready Principled Observer Location: Toledo, Ohio Posts: 13,873	Donk, then I am using the wrong terminology here, and I apologize. Paper money that is backed by secured funds then. Petition of Redress of Grievances: http://www.givemeliberty.org/default.htm Canadian Lawsuit Against Their National Banks: http://www.freewebs.com/classaction/ Osborn F. Enready

Dec 17, 2004, 06:16 pm	#42 (permalink) (top)
bishop moderat-e/o-r Location: boston Posts: 11,184	there were lots of problems before fiat as well, including global financial crises... imo, no system is necessarily better than the other - it's how you manage the system that counts. fiat in itself is not a bad thing, but deficit spending mixed with low interest rates is. also, to abolish fiat simply isn't practical - the entire global financial system is built around fiat and the transition costs would make social security look like small potatoes (not to mention that it would significantly disrupt trade in the short to medium term. central banking was separated from the government for precisely this reason - the framers believed that a separate central bank would curb reckless federal spending by raising interest rates. unfortunately, it hasn't gone that way in reality. it's amazing how quickly bush fucked up everything that was achieved during the clinton years. we were set to eliminate all of our foreign debt in about 10 years - and thanks to that rosy scenario, the dollar was strong. now, it's a totally different story. i do believe it's possible to reverse this trend, although the debt piled on us during the last 4 years has made it all the more difficult. and frankly, the only way to prevent the system to collapse will be to raise both interest rates as well as taxes. either that or you wait for the financial event horizon to occur. something like a constitutional ammendment to require a balanced budget, or at least a maximum deficit, should be legislated.