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Zeebadee · Dec 6, 2004, 12:04 am

What is going on with our sense of decency and honor? Is no one to be held accountable for anything anymore anywhere?

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...e_041206003039

" He refused to allow Romanian authorities to take a blood test, and the embassy immediately spirited him out of the country to one of the US military bases in Europe, according to the reports."

" The episode contrasted with a 1997 fatal car crash in downtown Washington, in which a drunk Georgian diplomat, Gueogui Makharadze, rear-ended another car waiting at an intersection, killing a 16-year-old girl.

At that time, the State Department applied heavy pressure on then Georgian President Eduard Shevardnadze, forcing him to reverse an earlier decision to move Makharadze out of the country and persuading him to lift the diplomat's immunity.

As a result, Makharadze was compelled to stand trial and serve jail time in the United States. "

This incident can only increase the perception that Americans are hypocrites.

Anniee · Dec 6, 2004, 12:08 am

What kind of a flaming, baiting title is THAT? Are you a foreigner to the US or just a self-loathing United States native?

OberonDOtherseid · Dec 6, 2004, 12:11 am

Oh it's just the sort of thing you get baited into so you can be called a blind patriot and a plethera of other cute titles like Bushite, Sean Hannity or some such nonsense. You have seen the circular rhetoric on other sites where merely calling it makes you some sort of apologist. This is a nice way of avoiding the obvious while attempting to shut you down. Anniee, you know this stuff like the back of your hand.

Anniee · Dec 6, 2004, 12:15 am

Well, you know I've been reading the rules and I was pretty sure that kind of substanceless flame-bait was frowned upon, but whatever. I haven't been here in a while <shrug>

Zeebadee · Dec 6, 2004, 12:20 am

Quote:

Quote by: Anniee

Well, you know I've been reading the rules and I was pretty sure that kind of substanceless flame-bait was frowned upon, but whatever. I haven't been here in a while <shrug>

Substanceless?? I gave you a link to the reports! How would you characterize our actions in this case?

Anniee · Dec 6, 2004, 12:23 am

No, I was talking about the flame-baiting title, as I said in my first post. Didn't read beyond that because I couldn't get past the blatancy of it.

OberonDOtherseid · Dec 6, 2004, 12:23 am

Making generalizations against all americans as arrogant and hypocritical is a bit much to ask people to be open minded to.

OberonDOtherseid · Dec 6, 2004, 12:30 am

Annie, I don't know about you but I am going to ignore these insults that mean to deflect from the discussion, as there isn't a discussion whenever someone comes on flaming an entire nation of people.

Morgan_Freeman · Dec 6, 2004, 12:31 am

US Marines serving in a foreign country hold a different status then the state department agents they work with. They don't hold what you would call a "diplomatic immunity" but instead a status that is determined by a treaty between the US and the host country. This kind if stuff happens all the time in Japan, and usually the US servicmember doesn't end up in the hands of Japanese authorities. That doesn't mean they don't get punished - they just get punished by a military court-martial rather than a court of the host country.

Zeebadee · Dec 6, 2004, 12:34 am

Quote:

Quote by: OberonDOtherseid

Making generalizations against all americans as arrogant and hypocritical is a bit much to ask people to be open minded to.

I don't believe I did any such thing. Yet it was our own government that allowed this to happen, and the government does represent all of us.

OberonDOtherseid · Dec 6, 2004, 12:37 am

Really? Is that right? Then I won't be called a blind patriot by any critical leftist anti administration people here anymore, right? You jus signed your name to Bush and Co, and what he does based on your opinion...(not mine, of course)..you blind patriot you.

Anniee · Dec 6, 2004, 12:38 am

Z: Self-loathing; got it. Carry on.

Zeebadee · Dec 6, 2004, 12:50 am

Quote:

Quote by: Anniee

Z: Self-loathing; got it. Carry on.

Self-loathing? No way. But I have been living in both Japan and Okinawa when crimes were committed and seen what the locals think about us whisking the perps out of the country. It's not fair to the injured party, the local nationals, or even the GI's that are left behind to deal with the bad feelings. Perhaps I phrased the title badly, but it irritates me to no end to see it publicly displayed that we have different justice standards for us and them.

Dieval · Dec 6, 2004, 12:50 am

Quote:

Quote by: Zeebadee

Yet it was our own government that allowed this to happen

Look, the article says -

Quote:

The US Marine Corps expressed regret about what is being called a traffic accident

it was an ACCIDENT and accidents happen. It's not like our government told the Marine to go out, drink and drive and kill someone.....stop trying to make it out to be something it's not. It was an accident and the guy "expressed regret" about it..

Zeebadee · Dec 6, 2004, 01:04 am

Quote:

Quote by: Dieval

Look, the article says -
it was an ACCIDENT and accidents happen. It's not like our government told the Marine to go out, drink and drive and kill someone.....stop trying to make it out to be something it's not. It was an accident and the guy "expressed regret" about it..

So if you go out and get drunk, cause an "accident" it's ok as long as you "express regret" about it? You won't be prosecuted?

Dieval · Dec 6, 2004, 01:14 am

Quote:

Quote by: Zeebadee

So if you go out and get drunk, cause an "accident" it's ok as long as you "express regret" about it? You won't be prosecuted?

I never said that...I agree with what Morgan said -

Quote:

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman

This kind if stuff happens all the time in Japan, and usually the US servicmember doesn't end up in the hands of Japanese authorities. That doesn't mean they don't get punished - they just get punished by a military court-martial rather than a court of the host country.

rmnunez · Dec 6, 2004, 05:37 am

What happens to gringo delinquents who are members of the armed forces stationed abroad depends on the fairly complicated treaty arrangements for their deployment. The rule of thumb is that it works a lot like in a business setting, if the trooper was doing his job or on his way to work then the US government and gringoes in general are responsible, otherwise local civilian law would apply according to previously agreed standards set out in the treaties. Typically, the issue boils down to compensation for the loss and the US military authorities seem to have a good deal of latitude here, they have to get their paperwork in order but will easily spring for a few thousand per capita. Depending on location and circumstances, local casualties are compensated at a rate of up to $50 thousand each. This is really what matters on the ground, where the accident happened and that amount seems 'puny' when comppared to the standards of compensation in wrongful death claims stateside.

PatrickHenry · Dec 6, 2004, 07:56 am

I see a bit of blind patriotism here from some debaters. And Zee your thread title is appropriate. What hypocrisy to remove the driver from the nation after not just an auto accident. It was a collision involving a prominent citizen's DEATH. And the driver had no diplomatic immunity or did he? The story was a little fuzzy on the alcohol content from the breathalyzer evidence. Was that .09% or milligram? I have heard of %, not milligram as a measurement of blood alcohol level. But a driver should be held to the rules of the host country for a traffic collision.

To be indignant about wrongdoing by a government we despise is certainly not self-loathing. I don't identify with Washington DC, the State Department or the Pentagon in any way. They are not me or mine. Arrogance is the correct term, Zeebadee.

bullshitdetector · Dec 6, 2004, 08:33 am

Quote:

Quote by: PatrickHenry

I see a bit of blind patriotism here from some debaters.....
To be indignant about wrongdoing by a government we despise is certainly not self-loathing. I don't identify with Washington DC, the State Department or the Pentagon in any way. They are not me or mine. Arrogance is the correct term, Zeebadee.

Good job backing just what OBE said, he said those who would find fault would be called blind patriots, and VOILA! There you have it folks!

Remember, like was what was mentioned in this thread, if you actually read it. He is referring to you and me and all the rest because our govt. represents us, you by in part are associating yourself with this govt. and accept the label Zeebadee gives you and your govt. He didn't post the american govt. is hypocritical and arrogant, he said all Americans, that means you too.

PatrickHenry · Dec 6, 2004, 03:29 pm

Heh, heh. There you go again, BSD. Zee said "Americans", not "all Americans" as you allege. The difference? His actual words can be construed as a criticism of government policy. You allege that he has attacked the character of all Americans.

I fear, despise and reject the hijackers who reside in Washington these days. They don't represent me on many of the issues of real substance. My views are the OPPOSITE of the elites in DC. A recent election win by a President with a slim majority may legitimize his rule to the citizens of America and the world. That still does not represent my views or my hopes for a more democratic, constitutional America. On the contrary, the Empire has descended upon us, but the blind patriots cannot see it.

Dec 6, 2004, 12:04 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
Zeebadee Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,836	More American Arrogance and Hypocrisy What is going on with our sense of decency and honor? Is no one to be held accountable for anything anymore anywhere? http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...e_041206003039 " He refused to allow Romanian authorities to take a blood test, and the embassy immediately spirited him out of the country to one of the US military bases in Europe, according to the reports." " The episode contrasted with a 1997 fatal car crash in downtown Washington, in which a drunk Georgian diplomat, Gueogui Makharadze, rear-ended another car waiting at an intersection, killing a 16-year-old girl. At that time, the State Department applied heavy pressure on then Georgian President Eduard Shevardnadze, forcing him to reverse an earlier decision to move Makharadze out of the country and persuading him to lift the diplomat's immunity. As a result, Makharadze was compelled to stand trial and serve jail time in the United States. " This incident can only increase the perception that Americans are hypocrites. "Everybody knows that the boat is leaking Everybody knows that the captain lied." - Leonard Cohen

Dec 6, 2004, 12:30 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
OberonDOtherseid Logic Via Reality Posts: 653	Annie, I don't know about you but I am going to ignore these insults that mean to deflect from the discussion, as there isn't a discussion whenever someone comes on flaming an entire nation of people. Last edited by OberonDOtherseid; Dec 6, 2004 at 12:35 am.

Dec 6, 2004, 07:56 am	#18 (permalink) (top)
PatrickHenry 9/11: Inside Job Location: Hawai'i, Big Island Posts: 10,455	I see a bit of blind patriotism here from some debaters. And Zee your thread title is appropriate. What hypocrisy to remove the driver from the nation after not just an auto accident. It was a collision involving a prominent citizen's DEATH. And the driver had no diplomatic immunity or did he? The story was a little fuzzy on the alcohol content from the breathalyzer evidence. Was that .09% or milligram? I have heard of %, not milligram as a measurement of blood alcohol level. But a driver should be held to the rules of the host country for a traffic collision. To be indignant about wrongdoing by a government we despise is certainly not self-loathing. I don't identify with Washington DC, the State Department or the Pentagon in any way. They are not me or mine. Arrogance is the correct term, Zeebadee. "Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense." -- John Adams

Dec 6, 2004, 03:29 pm	#20 (permalink) (top)
PatrickHenry 9/11: Inside Job Location: Hawai'i, Big Island Posts: 10,455	Heh, heh. There you go again, BSD. Zee said "Americans", not "all Americans" as you allege. The difference? His actual words can be construed as a criticism of government policy. You allege that he has attacked the character of all Americans. I fear, despise and reject the hijackers who reside in Washington these days. They don't represent me on many of the issues of real substance. My views are the OPPOSITE of the elites in DC. A recent election win by a President with a slim majority may legitimize his rule to the citizens of America and the world. That still does not represent my views or my hopes for a more democratic, constitutional America. On the contrary, the Empire has descended upon us, but the blind patriots cannot see it. "Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense." -- John Adams

Dec 6, 2004, 12:08 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
Anniee Mr. Queen Posts: 231	What kind of a flaming, baiting title is THAT? Are you a foreigner to the US or just a self-loathing United States native?

Dec 6, 2004, 12:11 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
OberonDOtherseid Logic Via Reality Posts: 653	Oh it's just the sort of thing you get baited into so you can be called a blind patriot and a plethera of other cute titles like Bushite, Sean Hannity or some such nonsense. You have seen the circular rhetoric on other sites where merely calling it makes you some sort of apologist. This is a nice way of avoiding the obvious while attempting to shut you down. Anniee, you know this stuff like the back of your hand.

Dec 6, 2004, 12:15 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
Anniee Mr. Queen Posts: 231	Well, you know I've been reading the rules and I was pretty sure that kind of substanceless flame-bait was frowned upon, but whatever. I haven't been here in a while <shrug>

Dec 6, 2004, 12:23 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
Anniee Mr. Queen Posts: 231	No, I was talking about the flame-baiting title, as I said in my first post. Didn't read beyond that because I couldn't get past the blatancy of it.

Dec 6, 2004, 12:23 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
OberonDOtherseid Logic Via Reality Posts: 653	Making generalizations against all americans as arrogant and hypocritical is a bit much to ask people to be open minded to.

Dec 6, 2004, 12:31 am	#9 (permalink) (top)
Morgan_Freeman Illogic Hunter Location: Seattle Posts: 2,385	US Marines serving in a foreign country hold a different status then the state department agents they work with. They don't hold what you would call a "diplomatic immunity" but instead a status that is determined by a treaty between the US and the host country. This kind if stuff happens all the time in Japan, and usually the US servicmember doesn't end up in the hands of Japanese authorities. That doesn't mean they don't get punished - they just get punished by a military court-martial rather than a court of the host country.

Dec 6, 2004, 12:37 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
OberonDOtherseid Logic Via Reality Posts: 653	Really? Is that right? Then I won't be called a blind patriot by any critical leftist anti administration people here anymore, right? You jus signed your name to Bush and Co, and what he does based on your opinion...(not mine, of course)..you blind patriot you.

Dec 6, 2004, 12:38 am	#12 (permalink) (top)
Anniee Mr. Queen Posts: 231	Z: Self-loathing; got it. Carry on.

Dec 6, 2004, 05:37 am	#17 (permalink) (top)
rmnunez Volcanic Erupter Location: Mexico City Posts: 4,772	What happens to gringo delinquents who are members of the armed forces stationed abroad depends on the fairly complicated treaty arrangements for their deployment. The rule of thumb is that it works a lot like in a business setting, if the trooper was doing his job or on his way to work then the US government and gringoes in general are responsible, otherwise local civilian law would apply according to previously agreed standards set out in the treaties. Typically, the issue boils down to compensation for the loss and the US military authorities seem to have a good deal of latitude here, they have to get their paperwork in order but will easily spring for a few thousand per capita. Depending on location and circumstances, local casualties are compensated at a rate of up to $50 thousand each. This is really what matters on the ground, where the accident happened and that amount seems 'puny' when comppared to the standards of compensation in wrongful death claims stateside.